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[Rubicon] Sisters of EVE faction ships

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Vincent Ageon
Phoenix Administration
#301 - 2013-10-02 23:20:21 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Vincent Ageon wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Vincent Ageon wrote:
After seeing the 1000dpsShocked blaster fit shield cruiser, I'm inclined to JUST use this ship in PvP. Cloak, approach, 0, and kill. Ogres (either a second set to say F* you. If they kill one, woopty friggen do) and Blaster II with void.
Roll


Have fun with that lock time delay and lack of tank.



"Roll Bonus: Can fit Covert Ops Cloak" <---

When did it get 100% reduction to cloaking device targeting delay.



It didnt. But last time I checked Covops cloaking devices dont give you scan resolution penalty. The "target delay" would be what your normal targetting would be without a cloak given the ship and your skill levels.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#302 - 2013-10-02 23:22:09 UTC
Vincent Ageon wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Vincent Ageon wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Vincent Ageon wrote:
After seeing the 1000dpsShocked blaster fit shield cruiser, I'm inclined to JUST use this ship in PvP. Cloak, approach, 0, and kill. Ogres (either a second set to say F* you. If they kill one, woopty friggen do) and Blaster II with void.
Roll


Have fun with that lock time delay and lack of tank.



"Roll Bonus: Can fit Covert Ops Cloak" <---

When did it get 100% reduction to cloaking device targeting delay.



It didnt. But last time I checked Covops cloaking devices dont give you scan resolution penalty. The "target delay" would be what your normal targetting would be without a cloak given the ship and your skill levels.

Covert Ops Cloaking devices come with a 5 second targeting delay on top of the need to lock your target.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Samara Anninen
#303 - 2013-10-02 23:22:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Samara Anninen
Xequecal wrote:
Samara Anninen wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Samara Anninen wrote:
I see no problem with this. You just have to be visible when you are warping. You still can leave bubble fast being cloaked.
Anyway... guns are not absolutely necessary to survive anywhere in new eden - just use covops if you want to be fully invisible. Otherwise - why will you ever use covops for exploration if you have enough isks to buy this OP ship with both cloak and ability to fight back?


There is very little difference. When a covops cloaker decloaks he has to wait 6 seconds (noone trains Cloaking V) before he can lock you. Your imp cloaker is visible in warp, but he can lock immediately after landing on grid. You don't get much more warning against the latter, even if you spam dscan.


Well... OK. It's true, but actually I have said that it should duplicate CovOps cloak in any way except cloak warping so recalibration delay can be simply not totally removed but reduced to the same 6 seconds as for CovOps.

The point is to make these ships much like Combat/Force Recons in terms of gank/stealthiness


......which also does nothing, as the recalibration timer will expire while they're warping.


Just thought about it... I have said "ok" too early :)

What's the problem with recalibration delay on CovOps if you can simply decloak 5-6 seconds BEFORE landing on grid. You can, I'm sure, it's just a matter of timing.

Being visible for last 5-6 seconds is much less problem then being visible during the whole warp sequence in case of bonused Improved Cloak

Intelligence Bot For FW Militia Chat
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#304 - 2013-10-02 23:22:58 UTC
Eko Fromtv wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

Amarr uses drones also, so it is a shared trait. If it gets lasers it is pushed too much to the Amarr side.


Perfect. It will be balanced by the armour rep bonuses which are mostly a Gallente trait in this comparison.

It balances out perfectly.

It dosent get an armor rep bonus, it gets an armor resistance bonus which is an amarr trait.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#305 - 2013-10-02 23:25:56 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Eko Fromtv wrote:
Vincent Ageon wrote:
After seeing the 1000dpsShocked blaster fit shield cruiser, I'm inclined to JUST use this ship in PvP. Cloak, approach, 0, and kill. Ogres (either a second set to say F* you. If they kill one, woopty friggen do) and Blaster II with void.

If this was meant as an exploration cruiser for long deployments, I'm not seeing it. Going by everyones suggestions and the bonuses as is, I see drone version of the Vigilant that can cloak on top of that.

Thought the idea was exploration with some teeth? I see lots of teeth with a little bit of explo.


Increase cargo bay, by quite a bit, drop the drone bay size to say.. 200? an decrease the bandwidth to 100. Its a CRUISER. Not a battle cruiser. Not a battle ship. Its a long deployment explo cruiser. Even if you strictly focused on that people are going to break it for Pvp so theres no worries there.

The mobile fitting array will take care of any needs regarding swapping out drones. This will be an essential NEED for "long deployments" so why not focus around the fact that one is going to be carried?

Keep hearing people cry "no laser bonuses? wtf? Needs more pew pew." I saw, wheres my hybrid turret bonus? I could use more dps on top that 1000. Go home. Roll


Yes, keep nerfing it and expect it to deliver on promises. It needs the big drone bay if it is to fulfill it's goal.

So restricting it to lasers will be an excellent choice. You won't have to worry about that blaster DPS anymore :)

Giving it a hybrid bonus would strengthen the Gallente side too much. It already has drone bonuses.

Amarr uses drones also, so it is a shared trait. If it gets lasers it is pushed too much to the Amarr side.


Especially with the armor resistance bonus.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Eko Fromtv
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#306 - 2013-10-02 23:27:24 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Eko Fromtv wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

Amarr uses drones also, so it is a shared trait. If it gets lasers it is pushed too much to the Amarr side.


Perfect. It will be balanced by the armour rep bonuses which are mostly a Gallente trait in this comparison.

It balances out perfectly.

It dosent get an armor rep bonus, it gets an armor resistance bonus which is an amarr trait.


Correct, of course. My bad.

(Ice) Miner for life.
Vincent Ageon
Phoenix Administration
#307 - 2013-10-02 23:27:44 UTC
"Roll Bonus: Can fit Covert Ops Cloak" <---[/quote]
When did it get 100% reduction to cloaking device targeting delay.[/quote]
When did that ever stop the cloaky loki, proteus, or pilgrim?[/quote]


Last line says it perfectly. And count the number of kills those ships have raked in collectively.

My point in all that was, the ship is going to be used in PvP regardless. I just think there is to much focus at the moment at making it better at PvP than it already seems when the intended purpose behind it was, as stated, long deployment exploration.

Its coming in the Rubicon expansion. Same with some new toys as well. Those new toys need to also be taken into account. Like the mobile fitting array. Why in the world would you not take one of these on a long deployment? Cargo space? Seems thats the ONLY restriction. Drones are a shared trait. I like drones. I use drones. But a cloaky Ishar is all it seems to me. Fleet of SOE ships that can quickly swap from Sentries to Orgres cuz there already loaded, set to assist and STILL be able to self rep seems any other use like explo would be pointless.
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#308 - 2013-10-02 23:31:26 UTC
You need some more utility highs. These are supposed to be cloaked probers according to the role bonuses, and that takes 2 highs which leaves the firgate with no weapons besides drones; the cruiser only loses a single weapon, so it's not as bad off, but being able to still fit a full rack would be nice. It's also nice to be able to fit a neut for combat or a salvager for ratting when not running stealth which again screws the frigate.

Also, shouldn't that be a 99% decrease in the fitting cost of cloaking devices? As far as I am aware, no ships can fit a cloak for free.

Thems some big bays.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#309 - 2013-10-02 23:33:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
a little confusing ... initial post had drone tracking on the frig and now has 20% drone HP??

odd laser cap bonus but no damage so hardly forcing you too use lasers a very liberal mid slot layout but no real armour low slot layout .. it all seems a bit mixed sending mixed messages and able to do many different things despite it's bonuses ..

also for an armour tanker it seems to have plenty of shields and structure .. its not really clear its an armour ship despite the armour resist bonus.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#310 - 2013-10-02 23:35:10 UTC
Vincent Ageon wrote:
"Roll Bonus: Can fit Covert Ops Cloak" <---
When did it get 100% reduction to cloaking device targeting delay.
When did that ever stop the cloaky loki, proteus, or pilgrim?


Last line says it perfectly. And count the number of kills those ships have raked in collectively.

Just as an example, it will take this ship about 9 seconds to target a rupture. Based upon the information I can get at work at least.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#311 - 2013-10-02 23:38:34 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Vincent Ageon wrote:
"Roll Bonus: Can fit Covert Ops Cloak" <---
When did it get 100% reduction to cloaking device targeting delay.
When did that ever stop the cloaky loki, proteus, or pilgrim?


Last line says it perfectly. And count the number of kills those ships have raked in collectively.

Just as an example, it will take this ship about 9 seconds to target a rupture. Based upon the information I can get at work at least.

With decent skills it reduces to 5 or 6 seconds.

Decloak on top of them -> burn prop mod -> bump -> lock -> point ->dead.

Even at 9 seconds, the bump will knock them off alignment for long enough.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#312 - 2013-10-02 23:43:41 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Vincent Ageon wrote:
"Roll Bonus: Can fit Covert Ops Cloak" <---
When did it get 100% reduction to cloaking device targeting delay.
When did that ever stop the cloaky loki, proteus, or pilgrim?


Last line says it perfectly. And count the number of kills those ships have raked in collectively.

Just as an example, it will take this ship about 9 seconds to target a rupture. Based upon the information I can get at work at least.

With decent skills it reduces to 5 or 6 seconds.

Decloak on top of them -> burn prop mod -> bump -> lock -> point ->dead.

Even at 9 seconds, the bump will knock them off alignment for long enough.

That is with Signature Analsys to level 5 and Cloaking 5.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Vincent Ageon
Phoenix Administration
#313 - 2013-10-02 23:46:23 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Vincent Ageon wrote:
"Roll Bonus: Can fit Covert Ops Cloak" <---
When did it get 100% reduction to cloaking device targeting delay.
When did that ever stop the cloaky loki, proteus, or pilgrim?


Last line says it perfectly. And count the number of kills those ships have raked in collectively.

Just as an example, it will take this ship about 9 seconds to target a rupture. Based upon the information I can get at work at least.

With decent skills it reduces to 5 or 6 seconds.

Decloak on top of them -> burn prop mod -> bump -> lock -> point ->dead.

Even at 9 seconds, the bump will knock them off alignment for long enough.

That is with Signature Analysis to level 5 and Cloaking 5.



Need cloaking to at least 4 and why would you not have sig analysis to 5 is you were going to be decloaking, locking and killing with speed? Even if it gave a reduction to delay of lock time, you would STILL want to have sig 5 and its not a long skill to train so thats hardly an excuse.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#314 - 2013-10-02 23:47:20 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Vincent Ageon wrote:
"Roll Bonus: Can fit Covert Ops Cloak" <---
When did it get 100% reduction to cloaking device targeting delay.
When did that ever stop the cloaky loki, proteus, or pilgrim?


Last line says it perfectly. And count the number of kills those ships have raked in collectively.

Just as an example, it will take this ship about 9 seconds to target a rupture. Based upon the information I can get at work at least.

With decent skills it reduces to 5 or 6 seconds.

Decloak on top of them -> burn prop mod -> bump -> lock -> point ->dead.

Even at 9 seconds, the bump will knock them off alignment for long enough.


And congratulations, you just killed a ship that had around 2% the value of your own.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#315 - 2013-10-02 23:47:47 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:

Stratios

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in Energy Turret capacitor need



plz dont force us to use lasers....
as a pilot who has every race but amar skilled (ships and weapons) and enjoys exploration this sucks cause i have to train both cruisers 5 and med weapons 5 just to use those awesome ships... if i could use any turret weapon on them it would be way better

I see nothing forcing the use of lasers, despite my personal thought that perhaps they should force it. The cap use bonus simply permits you to better choose which kind of gun you would prefer to use based of the merits of each gun, rather than outright dismissing lasers because of their immense cap drain.

Of course, personally I do believe there should be a huge incentive to use lasers, such as 2 turret hardpoints and a 100% damage bonus to lasers. This is an Amarr/Gallente pirate faction ship, and if you can't be bothered to train for that, I don't see why you should get to complain you can't fly the ship.

Of course in fairness to the Gallente side since drones are a weapon system for both races, perhaps it should have 2 role bonuses, one being 100% bonus to Laser damage, 100% bonus to Hybrid damage, 2 turret hardpoints. But I'm biased, so I just want a laser bonus.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#316 - 2013-10-02 23:50:41 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

That is with Signature Analsys to level 5 and Cloaking 5.

Could be you're right, but 9 seconds won't make a difference if you're getting bumped off alignment. As evident by all of the kills attributed to the cloaky loki, proetus, and pilgrim.

Look, I'm not saying I don't like the ship, it helps one of my favorite play styles immensely.

But we're talking over 1000 dps on a covops hull. Shocked With a huge drone bay for utillity drones (e.g. ecm drones) on top of that. It has attack battle cruiser dps combined with significant utility and improved tank (over most attack battle cruisers).

It's gonna **** people up the ass. Which is cool... but...maybe its a bit OP. Maybe.

Nyancat Audeles wrote:


And congratulations, you just killed a ship that had around 2% the value of your own.

Tell that to the tengus on my killboard.
Vincent Ageon
Phoenix Administration
#317 - 2013-10-02 23:53:06 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Vincent Ageon wrote:
"Roll Bonus: Can fit Covert Ops Cloak" <---
When did it get 100% reduction to cloaking device targeting delay.
When did that ever stop the cloaky loki, proteus, or pilgrim?


Last line says it perfectly. And count the number of kills those ships have raked in collectively.

Just as an example, it will take this ship about 9 seconds to target a rupture. Based upon the information I can get at work at least.

With decent skills it reduces to 5 or 6 seconds.

Decloak on top of them -> burn prop mod -> bump -> lock -> point ->dead.

Even at 9 seconds, the bump will knock them off alignment for long enough.


And congratulations, you just killed a ship that had around 2% the value of your own.



Pretty sure someone mentioned something about a Proteus and a Loki. So congrats to them since those ships are even more expensive? Regardless, both points seem moot since its not (as of right now) intended as a hunt em down blow em up pvp boat. People will do that on their own without trying to make the bonuses more pvp oriented.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#318 - 2013-10-02 23:55:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyancat Audeles
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

That is with Signature Analsys to level 5 and Cloaking 5.

Could be you're right, but 9 seconds won't make a difference if you're getting bumped off alignment. As evident by all of the kills attributed to the cloaky loki, proetus, and pilgrim.

Look, I'm not saying I don't like the ship, it helps one of my favorite play styles immensely.

But we're talking over 1000 dps on a covops hull. Shocked With a huge drone bay for utillity drones (e.g. ecm drones) on top of that. It has attack battle cruiser dps combined with significant utility and improved tank (over most attack battle cruisers).

It's gonna **** people up the ass. Which is cool... but...maybe its a bit OP. Maybe.


Improved tank with 1000 dps?
If you gank-fit this (most people won't, because ISK) then you'll have virtually no tank. If you want ECM drones you'll need to pray that your opponent has no EWAR so your blasters can do the job (and even then, their drones can chew through your Gallente resist holes). This ship is rather squishy - the resist bonuses are not THAT much when you consider how many damage mods you'll need to get ~1000 DPS out of this.

And all of that considered, a Vexor can easily get in that DPS range. A Vexor could probably kill this relatively easily, too.

EDIT: All of that said, this ship is intended for EXPLORATION purposes. Of COURSE the ship will need to have tank and at least a bit of gank to do DED complexes.

If you want to do covops cloaky combat PvP, a Pilgrim would be a far better choice for you.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#319 - 2013-10-02 23:55:26 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

That is with Signature Analsys to level 5 and Cloaking 5.

Could be you're right, but 9 seconds won't make a difference if you're getting bumped off alignment. As evident by all of the kills attributed to the cloaky loki, proetus, and pilgrim.

Look, I'm not saying I don't like the ship, it helps one of my favorite play styles immensely.

But we're talking over 1000 dps on a covops hull. Shocked With a huge drone bay for utillity drones (e.g. ecm drones) on top of that. It has attack battle cruiser dps combined with significant utility and improved tank (over most attack battle cruisers).

It's gonna **** people up the ass. Which is cool... but...maybe its a bit OP. Maybe.

That is also assuming the rupture is going to try to flee.

That aside yes the ship needs to be looked at as the cloaky shield gank setup is jus stupid. I personally believe it needs a high dropped down to a low.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
ConranAntoni
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#320 - 2013-10-02 23:57:23 UTC
I love the way people mention the DPS on this like it's a huge revelation.

"Sup when I fit blasters to this IT DOES OVER 9000 DPS CCP WTF"

"125mb for drones AND a whole 3 gun hardpoints, the **** CCP, NERF"

"BLASTERS OP I CAN DO 1.1k DPS (long as it doesn't move and i'm 3000 metres from the target)"


And while people cry over that they completely miss almost any other drone ship with 125mb bandwidth.

Features and Ideas Discussion forum, as people need to be stupid publicly somewhere.

Empyrean Warriors - Recruiting now.