Intergalactic Summit

I was thinking about this problem, and I believe that there are only two outcomes:
1. Republic denounces all gallentean anti-slavery bull, makes apologies to the Empire and asks for peace.
2. Empire gets tired of it, and launches full-scale reclamation, returning Republic to the position, where it was before conflict with Jove. You see, this time there won't be any more Jove, and gallentean swines won't help either, because we are holding them.

But if gallenteans will think to help them to fight against the real Crusade and move their forces to Republic, then we could finally strike into the heart of the Federation to bring it down once and forever. Which, of course, will signify end of both Republic and Federation at once.

I don't think although gallentean filth will go for it taking into account latest relations between Federation and Republic. So, Republic will simply be crushed under full scale might of the Empire.
Please avoid using profanity when responding to other capsuleers. Thank you -ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

To the good people of the IGS. Normally I refrain from taking an active role in these channels, however I feel this discussion merits the thoughts and a opinions of a moderate, less aggressive Minmatar Voice. When I say moderate, I mean to say that I will attempt to use reason and try to present my arguments in a diplomatic way in an attempt to be that moderate voice.



My Brother, I know how you feel, for I feel the same. However, we must take practicality into our decisions. We are not the only people in the cluster. Our actions DO infact make ripples across the nations, and as such we must act accordingly. I admire your passion and your drive, and I hope you do not lose it. But there is no sense in creating enemies where there weren't any to begin with.



This statement saddens me to no ends. To you I apologize for the failure of the Republic and our Tribes. I apologize for any hardships that you faced in the integration process. It is my dearest hope that you, and others like you will one day be able to embrace their heritage and return to the Tribes, and I endeavor towards that goal.

To you Pilot Mintor. I have read several of you posts, and while I have not commented, I feel as if I at the very least have a basic understanding of you and I cannot say I agree with you on many points. Some one who willingly turns their back on the Tribes is lower than a criminal in our society. You should know this. Why you choose to do so is beyond me.



Here it sounds almost as if you are justifying the actions of the Ardishapur Family. I shall respond to this statement with a question of my own. The rebellion that took the life of an Amarr Heir was the result of the Amarrians coming and enslaving an entire people. I'm not sure how else you expected the Starkmanir to react, but I would be interested in hearing any ideas.

Miss Starfire's demands and passion, in my experience, is what the majority of Minmatar feel. At the end of the day All we want to do is to be left alone, with out interference, with out having to be perpetually afraid of a foreign power coming in and threatening our very existence. It is for this reason we may appear overly violent, aggressive, and unaccommodating. The Amarr enslavement of our people and the subsequent years of servitude, abuse, and extermination of our people, culture and beliefs has left our entire nation deeply traumatized. No one else in the cluster has felt we have felt. The Caldari can sympathize, but there experience was uniquely different to our own. Many times what you see is the unconscious push back to what we feel is a threat to our way of life, and given our experience, such threats are taken very seriously.

What I am trying to say is that I believe that there is, rooted deep into our racial subconscious, a fear. We are afraid to go through what we once did, so much so that even tiny threats, or attempts to change us is met with utter resistance. Simply put, we will do what ever we have to do to protect our way of life. Regardless of how radical or unpopular it may be.

In order for peace to be achieved, all parties entering into the treaty must enter into the negations must first have equal negotiation power, and must also understand where the the other party(ies) are coming from. Often times It feels as if the cluster doesn't truly understand the Minmatar condition, our way of thinking, and often shrug off our concerns with a simple "Get over it, it happened a thousand years ago". I am not saying that we aren't guilty of it either. We are. However I believe, given the chance, If an enforceable peace with the Amarr, in which there are guarantees of no further attempt at a reclaiming, whether New or Old, and a feasible, concrete plan to release enslaved Minmatar back to Republic can be reached, Then as a Nation, we will accept.

Willingness to negotiate? Where? When? When has the imperial government asked ours to sit and discuss any issues of contention between our people? Show me an official statement from an imperial official. Any Scope or Amarr Certified News article will suffice. Can't show me one can you? You've just made a lot of unsubstantiated quips and attempted to pass them off as fact and I'm calling your bluff. Oh, and before you throw out the ninth generation freedom stuff, I remind you that was not a negotiation or any step towards peace. It was a unilateral decision, a coldly calculated political move by your empress to appear to be modernizing and liberalizing while at the same time dumping millions of your nation's unwanted (and thoroughly Amarr indoctrinated) onto our already strained social services infrastructure.

You want compensation, huh? There's not a large enough number in existence to compensate us for what you stole from us and continue to do to this very day. You want us to control the Bloody Hands? How about you control the Sabik, the Blooders and Sansha, all monsters that you created or enabled and that threaten the entire cluster, not just a single nation.

As I've said before, clean your own damned filthy house, slaver. Then you can criticize others. Until then, your words are all just so much hollow hypocrisy and propaganda.

Remember this bottom line fact: YOU ATTACKED AND OCCUPIED OUR HOME. Anything that happened afterwards was a result of this original action. YOUR original action. Quit blaming the victim and own up to your responsibility. Quit trying to rationalize your crimes. Only then can we begin the process of reconciliation.

I cannot begin to address every instance of idiocy and inaccuracy in this thread but I will try.

1. I am a nullsec combat pilot idiot. (nb4 Didn't want those regions anyway and I probably make more than you do Wolololo)

2. Blaming Shakor for every single action of the Republic, some even from before he came into power is doing nothing but further simplifying a very complex Republic. How many bloody riots have been shown against the Sanmatar? How many public outcries? Compare this to the late Ray of Matar's reign as Prime Minister. The government acts with the majority view of the tribes, Shakor is not the Tribal council. Further simplification of why the Republic does as it does 'the big bad Shakor did it' is resulting in greater and greater bafflement as the Republic fails and fails again to fit into the small box you have placed it. If you want to know about the Republic visit it, read about it, learn something. Or, spout more inane propaganda

3. The number one difficulty for slaves returning to the Republic? Cultural. Not economic, not several star systems of slums as the propaganda would have you believe. Cultural. The Republic had no problems with the former slaves from the Empress's emancipation or the millions of free citizens who return from the Federation, the outlands, and the Cartels. It is known that not only is the Republic's economy stronger than it has ever been but it is actually a singular government of united tribes. You act as though a Republic that can build Titans and Supers cannot afford to sponsor arts programs. Which by the way, it has. (Thank the warmongering Sanmatar) In fact, there was more fear of destabilization to the empire when the 700 million educated slaves were freed! More problems are political, land disputes, power plays, religious etc. You want to talk about the problems in the Republic? Talk about the real problems in the Republic.

And what of peace? We broke a convention that the majority of the Republic did not agree with. That was put into place by a government known to be highly corrupt. And with chamberlain Karsoth no less. Yes, we broke it. Becuase the tribes were splintered, The economy matched the propaganda spewed today and we had no political legitimacy at all. Groups seceded from the Republic, pirates stole whole star systems and the actions of the fleet became terrorism. And oh, Our people will still enslaved. We broke the treaty and the people of the Republic were nearly unanimous in support.

You want peace? Free the slaves who are a continuing war-crime against the Republic. Begin repirations. Cease the taking of new slaves and their sale in the Empire.

Then speak of peace.

Or spout more idiotic propaganda and flail in confusion when things do not add up.

The war crime is HOW they get into holders registries. But point made, it is not illegal in the Empire.

wait, wait, I get it now. It all makes sense.

What Maleatu Shakor is trying to do, is ensure that the history books and epic statues are all praising "Maleatu the Mighty" and "Shakor the Liberator".

And to do things like say "Brutor Strength is the thing that brought ultimate victory over the Evil Amarr, Not Sebiestor ingenuity, or Krusual scheming, or Vherokior whatever-it-is-that-Vherokior-do, but the Might of the Brutor Tribe".

And if he gets to make sure that the history books condemn Karin Midular as "Midular the Appeaser", or "Karin the Traitor", then that's a bonus.

Tribal Liberation Force troopers, Minmatar civilians, Imperial citizens, Federation Navy crewmembers, all must be sacrificed on the altar of Shakor's Ego, to satisfy one man's lust for glory.

That's why there can be no peace, because then the history books would criticise the terms of that peace. That's why Shakor wants to continue the war, at any cost.

So that the heroic-scale statues of him say "The Liberator", rather than just life-size statues labelled "first sanmatar for X hundred years".

Heh.

Thank goodness, someone who's actually interested in a discussion rather than rabble-rousing.

Mr. Aloga,

Why I chose to abandon the Republic in it's current form is complicated and I have no desire speaking at length about myself so I'll make it short.

I've been offered a chance to return and make amends but I do not. The Republic failed me, my family, and many others and I have no desire to exist within it's confines and be associated with Shakor. When I was a boy we were captured and enslaved by the Angel Cartel. As you know, the Cartel has many free Minmatar in it's employ. Our people are ****** up-this much I've learned. If you wish to blame that on the Empire, feel free, but we cannot continue to blame the Empire for all our troubles when we've had so many opportunities to prove that we can be better without their help. Why I joined the Empire instead of remaining among the Thukker is because I had a change of heart.

In regards to Starkman Prime and the melancholic Sorrow's Gash I can only respond in the way many Minmatar have been responding in this thread. To every action is a reaction. You can say that Ardishapur started this chain of events and I wouldn't blame you. However, when an Heir is killed the replacement must assert their power. This is the only reason that I can imagine why Idonis Ardishapur did what he did. A military insertion would have resulted in the deaths of many more Amarr and possibly even failed. Regardless, it wouldn't have mattered because Drupar Maak gave way for the larger Minmatar Rebellion to begin and things only got bloodier for everyone.

As far as the Starkmanir's reaction, they had several options. The most obvious one that came to be is to revolt. They could have also lived out their lives as slaves. You may scoff at this but it happens many other places though I would expect revolt if their lives were indeed miserable; good living conditions is the best safety measure and that isn't just in regards to slavery, but everywhere. I would like to point out that although they succeeded in killing an Heir, they were ultimately destroyed and the Heir quickly replaced. The Starkmanir who were eventually freed from the Elder Fleet were not from Arzad, but from Jarizza. If you see the Empire as a one-headed beast then you will fail to grasp how to deal with it. You cannot just cut off the head and expect it to wither and die. It's more like a tree where the life is brought in from the roots. Anyways, the Starkmanir reacted in the way they thought was best, as did Idonis Ardishapur.

Ten years ago, Doriam Kor-Azor initiated an emancipation program. It was met with resistance by extremists in the Empire, later to be identified as the Order of St. Tetrimon and subsequently destroyed in Minmatar space of all places. It's interesting to see Jamyl Sarum not condone the massacre yet later free slaves herself while Empress and even proclaim the age of slavery is coming to an end but, baffled as I am, I've found much thought impossible is infact possible in this cluster. However, the reason I point this out is because the Empire has made efforts to empower the Minmatar but it never seemed to be enough to satisfy the fear and anger of our people. As Ms. Starfire asked for a news piece that proved the Empire was willing to negotiate, you have one. I can't imagine that the Empire would be sending transports of slaves to the Republic without their express permission. I can't imagine peace would be brokered without negotiations. Just because you don't read much about negotiations doesn't mean they don't exist.

It's convenient she brought up lack of news articles because I've actually been spending the last few days going over old events. It's good to do so just to put things in new perspective as you gain more knowledge and experience. In regards to the Empire not cleaning house, it wasn't that long ago that Doriam Kor-Azor went to war against the Blood Raiders, resulting in all but their complete expulsion from the Empire's borders. Unfortunately they were able to rebuild in null-sec, much like Nation, and have re-emerged as a threat again.

Some more interesting articles when put in the perspective of Colelie would be when Amarr demanded extradition of an Angel Cartel member caught in Federation space, and then got their prisoner without having to shoot anyone. Curious how diplomacy works.

In regards to Shakor, I actually agree with you that he needs to be removed of his power and place it instead in the hands of the tribes. Glad to see we can agree on one thing, at least.

In regards to "our people," I do think that term is a misnomer. To say 'our' implies ownership, much as being a slave is being owned by a master. Are you suggesting that you have rights to someone's flesh? As Kernher pointed out, there are many of Minmatar ancestry who no longer hold the beliefs of the tribes. What you are suggesting is to re-indoctrinate them with your own beliefs in the hope they like you and your culture better than what they were born and raised into. These people are as Amarr as the Ni-Kunni or Udorians. There are the first generation slaves who are not, and I can understand your desire to free them.

More later.

-Eran

Oh, the latter was aimed at mr. Mitar, not yourself. I thought that was apparent from the context, since we're both on the side of reason here, but should've probably made that clear. Mea culpa and apologies for the inconvenience.

I admit I never thought of it that way, Ms. Valate.

No need to apologize for something I misunderstood, Caine.

-Eran

As long as it takes, Ava. Not as long as it takes to change the Amarrian mind, but as long as it would take to effect a peaceful and graceful end to the situation - but it strikes me that people aren't even talking about THAT, are they? Have there been ANY studies done on how it could ACTUALLY be achieved and sustained?

We had to wait almost three centuries to get even part of our homeworld back, and solving THAT problem was SIMPLE compared to the issue of moving over a third of your people from one place to another. Even assuming that they WANT to go - and what will happen then, by the way? When at least half of 'your people' tell you that they don't WANT to go and live in penury, don't want to give up their religion and their comfortable lifestyles?

And after? Will the end of slavery truly bring an end to war - because the agreement over Caldari Prime was months ago and we're still going at it hammer and tongs in the warzone.