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Drug Booster Balancing issues

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Author
S0NFANNA
Cause For Concern
#1 - 2011-11-15 02:08:59 UTC
Im happy to see that CCP is reviewing drug boosters, however, the changes they've made need to be reconsidered. The potential side effects that were associated with using a booster have all been removed but the tradeoff for this is a dramatic reduction in the effectiveness of the booster.

For example, a ''Standard Blue Pill'' used to give a 20% bonus to shield boost amount, however, on the current SiSi build the bonus is only 10%.

As well as the changes to the attributes, CCP has also modified the two skills that had effects on the booster side effects.

The new ''Neurobiology'' skill awards 5% gain to booster effects per level. Therefore at level 5, the booster effect would be increased by 25%, making the bonus from a ''Standard Blue Pill'' 12.5% (still 7.5% less effective than we are used to).

I think that at level 5 the neurobiology skill should award close to, if not the same effect as the old booster (I would rather risk the side effects than lose the 7.5% booster effectiveness).

The second skill that modifies the booster ''Nanobiology'' gives a 20% additional duration of attribute booster effects per level which is fine but when you realise that the ''Biology'' skill has the exact same effect (20% bonus to duration per level) then the skills are doubling up to give a 200% bonus to duration at level 5. When most pilots use boosters, it is for a tight situation (lets face it, they arent cheap) so the need for it to last all day is totally unecessary.

CCP I think you need to reconsider the changes, to allow good skills to restore the booster effects to closer what they used to be and not have the nanobiology skill stack with the biology skill.
Surothe
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2 - 2011-11-15 02:42:33 UTC
Maybe it works like resist bonus. IE: at L5 you would have a 37.5% bonus for strong blue, exile, etc? One can only hope that would be the case. Otherwise the Neurobiology skill will become somewhat useless except for those true min/maxers. and it seems that the nanobiology skill will also be redundant as you get the same bonus as you do from biology. Come on CCP let's find a better way to do this!
Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
#3 - 2011-11-15 02:49:09 UTC
Would like a dev's response on this.

Also, what will i do with my lo-grade Edge implants now ???

❒ Single ❒ Taken ✔ Playing EVE Online

CCP Guard > Where's the shoot button on this thing?

CCP Space Cadet > What's this "offline guns" button do?

Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2011-11-15 03:26:19 UTC
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


So not happy with these changes, I don't give a **** about the side effects, do you think I care about the tracking on my dual180s on my trip rep myrm more than my uber pill fueled tank?

Not likely gungadin. These changes will reduce drug use, because the tank isn't worth dropping 6mill on a pill everytime.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8

Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#5 - 2011-11-15 13:52:50 UTC
Akturous wrote:
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


So not happy with these changes, I don't give a **** about the side effects, do you think I care about the tracking on my dual180s on my trip rep myrm more than my uber pill fueled tank?

Not likely gungadin. These changes will reduce drug use, because the tank isn't worth dropping 6mill on a pill everytime.


exactly with those changes its not worth using them anymore

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.

Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#6 - 2011-11-15 14:00:07 UTC
The problem was that nobody would use them because of the risks of side effects.

Quote:
do you think I care about the tracking on my dual180s on my trip rep myrm more than my uber pill fueled tank?


Exactly my point... you're using it on a ship where the side effects won't affect anything if it fails.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#7 - 2011-11-15 15:10:30 UTC
FYI, those skills aren't new, they are Nanite Control and Neurotoxin Recovery renamed. I agree that especially Neurobiology is pretty weak.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

Tamiya Sarossa
Resistance is Character Forming
#8 - 2011-11-15 15:53:10 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
The problem was that nobody would use them because of the risks of side effects.

Quote:
do you think I care about the tracking on my dual180s on my trip rep myrm more than my uber pill fueled tank?


Exactly my point... you're using it on a ship where the side effects won't affect anything if it fails.


You're contradicting yourself here. The point is that these ships had a niche on ships where their large bonuses could make a difference and they were thus worth the cost - reduce their bonuses and they lose even that niche, regardless of side effects.

Most of the time when you need MORE TANK and are willing to pay 20mil a pop for it, you're not worried about tracking or explosion velocity or anything else. From experience, I'd much rather have the small chance of random penalites and the large bonus than a mediocre bonus without penalites.

I can't speak to the drop/crash boosters, etc, but from what I now they were still regularly used by those who benefited from them, so it's certainly not true that no one used them because of the risk of side effects. For the most part, the side effects aren't a major disadvantage, and can actually be entertaining - everyone loves watching their armor bounce around repping with the armor penalty on exile.

Don't nerf their effectiveness, even if you've got to keep penalties to do it.
Sutha Moliko
Giza'Msafara
#9 - 2011-11-15 18:18:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Sutha Moliko
Is it the goal ? To increase the general use of synth among the empire citizens. I can already see PvEr in Tengu having fun with Synth Blue Pill and Crash. To make synth boosters as popular as can be a vodka-redbull ?

However, it will decrease the cost/effectiveness ratio for the rest of the customers, (=PvPer), using the illegal boosters to increase their survival chance and combat performance.

The price people pay for a standard Blue Pill today should be the price for the strong Blue Pill in the future to keep the same cost/effectiveness ratio.
I wonder how the black market will reflect the change...

I always thought that combat boosters were illegals BECAUSE they can induce side effects. After all they are modified drugs. However drugs of lesser quality means a lower price with an easier acces to them.
So will the next step be : all boosters legal and allow biochemical reactor in high sec ? Roll

Keep the side effects. Do not reduce the effectiveness so drastically. Maybe one step below but not two !
IceAero
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2011-11-15 18:25:52 UTC
While I like the Idea of these changes, I agree that the reduction in efficacy is going to be a deal breaker on these.

The increase in strength from the skill is a good idea, but the 12.5% max effectiveness is just not what drives the market on these. They should never be a free pass to get some benefit! Even if it's a costly one...

The random drawbacks makes you seriously consider their use.

Maybe the issue is that this has caused people to not use them enough? OK, that's fair! So make them 10% and give them a bonus per skill level so that we end up with 25% or 30% bonus at lvl 5.

This is always the way to solve things in EVE...make them more effective but make it skill dependent! The idea of the game is to reward people for the time they have chosen to decidate. MAYBE we should keep things the same and just ADD a skill that makes them more effective?

Reduction in drawback % and likelihood are great ways to make people use them more...at lvl 5 for each there a serious reduction in the risk of their use! And you're still paying for the benefit amount depending on the type of drug that you take.

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#11 - 2011-11-15 23:05:49 UTC
There is nothing wrong with the current booster system that would justify these drastic changes.

The whole point of boosters is a fun edge that comes with a cost - the fact they are risky, fun, and rare is what makes them part of the underworld of EvE. So many players want more bountyhunting / smuggling / drugmaking type activities, this change just clips the balls right off of booster use and makes their usage not a risky tactical choice, but an issue of pure economics. Now, you'd be foolish not to use them, demand will rise, to the point where it boils down to whether the isk is worth sacrificing for the hull you are piloting.

Anyone with experience using boosters knows how to moderate the side effects - skills and implants can make them happen only in rare circumstances, and careful ship pairing makes it irrelevent in a lot of cases even if you DO get the side effects.

The fact that they were unpopular because of side effects is only due to lack of player understanding / knowledge. The pro's knew they weren't a crippling factor to begin with. I really don't think removing the side effects is the way to make them more widespread.

Besides, the production seems to be bottlenecked at the source anyways - unless the drop rates for all the BPC's and gas clouds has been increased, this will only cause production levels to remain the same, and prices to skyrocket beyond being worth using.

With these changes, and no side effects, there is simply no reason not to use Strong, all the time. Since 8 Alliances have 100% lockdown on the 8 constellations where these blueprints spawn, these changes will fill their coffers up but no one elses. Booster use will become solely dependent on whether you have the riches to use them - these changes only favor the rich, not the brave.

I'm all for Booster adjustments, but the proposed changes seem bizarrely arbitrary. I'm hoping a developer can step in and share their thoughts, this is a pretty big set of changes to just slip in to SiSi without a blog and opportunity for more widespread feedback. There are a lot of problems that should be thoroughly discussed first before this hits Tranquility.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Cailais
The Red Pill Taker Group
#12 - 2011-11-16 00:34:38 UTC
Id like to see booster have a decent 'boost' in terms of performance and benefit - but they should have some form of side effect (like a hangover Blink). Maybe that should kick in a bit later?

Of course you could always consume even more boosters to delay the on set of the side effects Big smile

C.

Zircon Dasher
#13 - 2011-11-16 02:05:26 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
There is nothing wrong with the current booster system that would justify these drastic changes.

The whole point of boosters is a fun edge that comes with a cost - the fact they are risky, fun, and rare is what makes them part of the underworld of EvE. So many players want more bountyhunting / smuggling / drugmaking type activities, this change just clips the balls right off of booster use and makes their usage not a risky tactical choice, but an issue of pure economics. Now, you'd be foolish not to use them, demand will rise, to the point where it boils down to whether the isk is worth sacrificing for the hull you are piloting.

Anyone with experience using boosters knows how to moderate the side effects - skills and implants can make them happen only in rare circumstances, and careful ship pairing makes it irrelevent in a lot of cases even if you DO get the side effects.

The fact that they were unpopular because of side effects is only due to lack of player understanding / knowledge. The pro's knew they weren't a crippling factor to begin with. I really don't think removing the side effects is the way to make them more widespread.

Besides, the production seems to be bottlenecked at the source anyways - unless the drop rates for all the BPC's and gas clouds has been increased, this will only cause production levels to remain the same, and prices to skyrocket beyond being worth using.

With these changes, and no side effects, there is simply no reason not to use Strong, all the time. Since 8 Alliances have 100% lockdown on the 8 constellations where these blueprints spawn, these changes will fill their coffers up but no one elses. Booster use will become solely dependent on whether you have the riches to use them - these changes only favor the rich, not the brave.

I'm all for Booster adjustments, but the proposed changes seem bizarrely arbitrary. I'm hoping a developer can step in and share their thoughts, this is a pretty big set of changes to just slip in to SiSi without a blog and opportunity for more widespread feedback. There are a lot of problems that should be thoroughly discussed first before this hits Tranquility.


So what your saying is that right now drugs are risky, rare, and only used tactically.

Except that
1) Pro's know they are not risky
2) They are rare only becauase those who are not pro dont have the knowledge to the contrary.

Given that drugs are not risky, they are already being used by pro's when it is economically feasible (given the hull), so that argument is out.

Given that drugs are not already risky, then the argument that changes will make drugs used by rich people instead of "brave" people is laughable.

You also claim that reducing the side effects will not foster the use of drugs, but then complain that drug demand (and therefore price) will sky rocket.

Soooo many contradictions.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.

Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#14 - 2011-11-16 02:54:00 UTC
Not happy with this change at all. I simply don't understand the reasoning behind it. The old boosters were very well balanced, though poorly understood by many players. If CCP felt boosters were being underused, why couldn't they just have buffed the synth variants a bit, or increased availability?

On that note, do synth boosters still exist on Sisi? Are they still legal?

Unless of course there is some truth to the rumour I heard from some Aussie (which instantly makes it a bit dubious) that Australian law prohibits the use of fictional narcotics in video games. So, choice for CCP: change boosters, or lose the Australian market.
Zircon Dasher
#15 - 2011-11-16 02:56:26 UTC
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
Australian law prohibits the use of fictional narcotics in video games. So, choice for CCP: change boosters, or lose the Australian market.


What is the legal penalty for this crime?

Do they make you drink Foster's?

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#16 - 2011-11-16 03:00:09 UTC
forum ate my post....grr.......

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Licinius CrassusFilius
Space Construction and Research
#17 - 2011-11-16 03:04:41 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
Australian law prohibits the use of fictional narcotics in video games. So, choice for CCP: change boosters, or lose the Australian market.


What is the legal penalty for this crime?

Do they make you drink Foster's?



No crime is worth that punishment. Why do you think it isn't sold in Australia?
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#18 - 2011-11-16 03:34:40 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:

Except that
1) Pro's know they are not risky
2) They are rare only becauase those who are not pro dont have the knowledge to the contrary.

Given that drugs are not risky, they are already being used by pro's when it is economically feasible (given the hull), so that argument is out.

Given that drugs are not already risky, then the argument that changes will make drugs used by rich people instead of "brave" people is laughable.

You also claim that reducing the side effects will not foster the use of drugs, but then complain that drug demand (and therefore price) will sky rocket.

Soooo many contradictions.


To clarify, what I meant is that these changes will increase in widepread demand, but not widespread use (unless spawn location / frequency has been boosted to match). Also, as I said, the rarity is due to the limited spawns for booster materials, whether pilots know just HOW risky the boosters are doesn't have anything to do with how many exist in the game.

I see two basic scenarios:

1.) Spawn rates for gas clouds and BPC's are increased as well, prices remain affordable, but booster use becomes commonplace in PvP - just like faction ammo. It'll be just another thing you have to buy and have around to be competitive. People won't want to fight without their boosters if it means knowing your opponent has 30% on you, and PvP just becomes more expensive in general (meaning less incentive to pew, not more).

2.) Spawn rates stay the same, and booster price skyrockets as demand spikes. Boosters essentially become Officer Mods, except they wont appear in killmails and can't be looted once you're high.

I think either scenario is more a setback than progress for the Eve Universe.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Zi'Boo
Zi'Corp
#19 - 2011-11-16 03:44:46 UTC
One proposal that was mentioned ages ago and I liked was for boosters to separate the bonus time from the penalty time and also include some form of addiction.

So for example your booster gives you 20% more repping for 2 hours, but for the 24 hours after it wears off you suffer some penalty (either to repping or maybe to some other functions like it is today).

It was also suggested that you can delay that hangover by taking another booster, but the next hangover will be even stronger and possibly longer.

What could also be done is to reduce the effectiveness of the hangover killing booster. So say first one gives you 20%, but if you take another one of the same type while your under the penalty it only gives you 17% or 15% and the next one even less.

Obviously it would have to be balanced so that you can't just take a booster for your play time that day, then log off and come back fresh the next day and take another booster for the whole session.
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2011-11-16 04:01:46 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
The problem was that nobody would use them because of the risks of side effects.

Quote:
do you think I care about the tracking on my dual180s on my trip rep myrm more than my uber pill fueled tank?


Exactly my point... you're using it on a ship where the side effects won't affect anything if it fails.



No they weren't. Every single person I spoke to in Alliance who uses drugs (that'd be pretty well everyone, we have our own drug industrialist in one Ghazi) and they all said they'd much rather have the risk of side effects than have the booster effect nerfed.

I don't care about the side effects on my Cyclone either, I don't use drop or crash, so I can't speak for those.

This change will dramatically reduce the booster use from all the people who use them now. It might get new people using them, but all the current users will reduce consumption a lot.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8

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