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Dev blog: License to kill: Certificates Overhaul

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Rob Crowley
State War Academy
#121 - 2013-10-01 15:14:29 UTC
Sentient Blade wrote:
If you want an option for "turned it all the way up to 11" then that's fine. But keep it distinct from the core certificate system that is meant to be used as a learning guide.

For something like this I can't help but feel that Certificate V should be excellence in the field. Not "Spent months training skills to V which no-one would train to V except to say they'd trained them".

  1. Consider levels 1-3 as core certificate system used as a learning guide.
  2. Consider level 4 as "excellence in the field".
  3. Ignore the existence of level 5.
  4. ???
  5. Profit!
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#122 - 2013-10-01 15:17:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
These changes are all good. I only have one small thing to quibble over, and that's regarding ship masteries. Based on the megathron example, it appears that there is some kind of rule that level 1 mastery requires all relevant certificates at 1, level 2 mastery requires all relevant certificates at 2, and so on and so forth. If this is the case, this is overly simplistic and in my opinion defeats the purpose of having a separate classification of masteries. The shield reinforcement requirement on the megathron perfectly illustrates this. Let's say that level 2 megathron mastery does not require shield reinforcement, but level 3 does. In that case shield reinforcement shouldn't just start out as a level 3 certificate requirement, it should be at least one level lower than the armor requirement for the same level of mastery, to reflect that for a megathron, armor skills are WAY more important than shield skills, while still acknowledging that some shield skills are important, primarily because they are the low hanging fruit to increase your EHP once you already have good armor skills. The entire point of the certificate system is to make sure people grab the low hanging fruit before they train blaster spec 5 (and yes, I have met people that were training large blaster spec 5 while only having basic core skills at level 4).

Also, THIS:

Sentient Blade wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
  • Why do you require useless skills like "Astronautics Rigging" 5 for level 5 Certificates / Masteries?
    • Level 5 Certificates and Masteries mean that the player has totally maxed all skills available for that ship hull, no matter their relevance. It's meant as a very-high level goal and status symbol. [/b]


    Except you removed the public option, so it's really not much of a symbol at all.

    If you want an option for "turned it all the way up to 11" then that's fine. But keep it distinct from the core certificate system that is meant to be used as a learning guide.

    For something like this I can't help but feel that Certificate V should be excellence in the field. Not "Spent months training skills to V which no-one would train to V except to say they'd trained them".


    I've had this issue since the day the certificate system was introduced. I understand that "all skills maxed" is a design choice CCP has made. What we're trying to say is: This is a terrible design choice. Hopefully the addition of a 5th level into the certificate system helps, before it felt like it only represented 1,2,3, and 5, with someone that had 98% of the relevant training time done only getting credit for 60%.

    You are LITERALLY giving a gold star in exchange for people making suboptimal terrible training choices. Considering that the point of the system is to quantify good training choices, this is a bad standard. Maybe put the gold star on level 4, and a dunce cap for level 5.

    "**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

    Never forget.
    CCP Ytterbium
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #123 - 2013-10-01 15:25:33 UTC
    Tippia wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
  • In the blog, why do all Turrets require "Large / Medium / Small Turret" at 4 except for Amarr turrets, that are at 5?
    • It's a typo, they all require level 5. If you look on the same screenshot, under the sub-requirements, level 5 is needed as part of the specialization skill anyway.
    …just want to point out that “needed for the specialisation anyway” doesn't mean it's actually needed for the weapon in question, so make sure this typo doesn't go live.

    The difference is, of course, that as they were written in that image, you could lose the fifth level of hybrids and projectiles and still be able to use the T2 weapons, but not be able to do the same with lasers. After all, a pre-req to a pre-req is meaningless in terms of restricting your access to the item once you've passed that layer.

    It may not make a difference for the training required to use something, but it makes a hellalot of difference for maintaining that ability and actually using the item.


    Already in the process of changing that to be consistent to 5 right now Smile
    Luc Chastot
    #124 - 2013-10-01 15:27:22 UTC
    So the only relevant change here is the turret skills. Ok.

    Rubicon is shaping up to be yet another disappointment.

    Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

    Harvey James
    The Sengoku Legacy
    #125 - 2013-10-01 15:43:00 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Tippia wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
  • In the blog, why do all Turrets require "Large / Medium / Small Turret" at 4 except for Amarr turrets, that are at 5?
    • It's a typo, they all require level 5. If you look on the same screenshot, under the sub-requirements, level 5 is needed as part of the specialization skill anyway.
    …just want to point out that “needed for the specialisation anyway” doesn't mean it's actually needed for the weapon in question, so make sure this typo doesn't go live.

    The difference is, of course, that as they were written in that image, you could lose the fifth level of hybrids and projectiles and still be able to use the T2 weapons, but not be able to do the same with lasers. After all, a pre-req to a pre-req is meaningless in terms of restricting your access to the item once you've passed that layer.

    It may not make a difference for the training required to use something, but it makes a hellalot of difference for maintaining that ability and actually using the item.


    Already in the process of changing that to be consistent to 5 right now Smile


    any chance of reducing the need of sharpshooter skill? lv5 seems too much for LR guns when lv3 would do fine instead of forcing another lv5 skill to be trained?

    T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

    ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

    Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
    Mashie Saldana
    V0LTA
    WE FORM V0LTA
    #126 - 2013-10-01 15:45:52 UTC
    Batelle wrote:
    You are LITERALLY giving a gold star in exchange for people making suboptimalterrible training choices. Considering that the point of the system is to quantify good training choices, this is a bad standard. Maybe put the gold star on level 4, and a dunce cap for level 5.

    You are free to stop training at level 4 but don't prevent the rest of us that want to turn things to 11 from having our shiny gold stars.

    CCP Ytterbium, any chance we can have the number of Mastery 5's listed under our forum portraits? P

    How to win EVE
    Ransu Asanari
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #127 - 2013-10-01 16:04:45 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium can you address the concerns with the Gunnery Tiercide changes removing a previous distinction/advantage to the Missiles skill progression? Since it's not directly related to the changes to the certificate system, we can start a separate thread, or maybe it should have been kept separate in the first place.
    Texty
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #128 - 2013-10-01 16:46:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Texty
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    It's meant as a very-high level goal and status symbol.

    I get your point, but I feel having skills like Astronautics Rigging at 5 would make me look rather stupid. Instead of admiring me for my "uberness," people would simply laugh at me for my wasting time.
    Rob Crowley
    State War Academy
    #129 - 2013-10-01 17:39:32 UTC
    Texty wrote:
    I get your point, but I feel having skills like Astronautics Rigging at 5 would make me look rather stupid. Instead of admiring me for my "uberness," people would simply laugh at me for my wasting time.
    I dunno, endgame achievements are almost always rather useless wastes of time in all games, yet they are still generally more admired than laughed at I would say.

    Are people being laughed at for having say "Specialist Drone Operator Elite" or "Planetology Elite" currently? At least I haven't noticed. On the contrary people are being revered for achieving the holy grail of certificates "Hull Tanking Elite".
    Chris Winter
    Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
    The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
    #130 - 2013-10-01 17:40:11 UTC
    Ransu Asanari wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium can you address the concerns with the Gunnery Tiercide changes removing a previous distinction/advantage to the Missiles skill progression? Since it's not directly related to the changes to the certificate system, we can start a separate thread, or maybe it should have been kept separate in the first place.

    This please. Missile training time is now (even more) awful compared to gunnery than it was before.
    Aliventi
    Rattini Tribe
    Minmatar Fleet Alliance
    #131 - 2013-10-01 17:41:06 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium any comment on the base missile skill SP rebalance now that turrets no longer need to train the smaller size turrets anymore?
    ExookiZ
    The Dark Space Initiative
    Scary Wormhole People
    #132 - 2013-10-01 18:05:56 UTC
    are corp certificates a real thing? or are you just teasing us with a possible feature you thought would be cool but have no plans of implementing? whether or not I care at all about this dev blogs depends on the answer to that question.

    Event Organizer of EVE North East
    James Amril-Kesh
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #133 - 2013-10-01 22:30:09 UTC
    Totally called the weapons skill changes.

    Enjoying the rain today? ;)
    Kasumi 'Goto
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #134 - 2013-10-02 02:48:47 UTC
    I would really appreciate a response from a dev on the imbalance of missile training aswell. This makes it quite disadvantageous to train missiles when you can get a turret system trained much sooner.
    Daler Farmon
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #135 - 2013-10-02 04:23:52 UTC
    As newbie in this game I want to say, you have done a great damn job by taking out all other medium and small specs from T2 guns and etc relevant ones. That's amazing decision, cuz I was looking at requirements for T2 Railgun and I was like 82 days away.. now it should be done in 24+days which is perfect!!.
    Thanks so much from beginners of this game;)
    CCP Ytterbium
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #136 - 2013-10-02 09:42:53 UTC
    Sorry, there is nothing planned for missile requirements right now. However, we'll need to have a full module tiericide at some point, and this could be a good thing to look at then.

    Also remember, training a Tech2 turret faster doesn't necessarily mean you can effectively use it without the support skills.
    Kasumi 'Goto
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #137 - 2013-10-02 11:51:21 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Sorry, there is nothing planned for missile requirements right now. However, we'll need to have a full module tiericide at some point, and this could be a good thing to look at then.

    Also remember, training a Tech2 turret faster doesn't necessarily mean you can effectively use it without the support skills.


    If someone training missiles wants all 3 tiers and there long and short range variants they have to spend aprox. 2.5 mill more in SP. This is weeks of training turret users don't have to spend for a single turret system. This gives them weeks of time to train other skills such as support skills for turrets. CCP's attitude towards missiles is very discouraging.
    Jim Parsons
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #138 - 2013-10-02 16:18:20 UTC
    The Gunnery Tiericide should be implemented in a seperate patch sooner than the expansion (within the next 2 weeks). It's not fair to those training Large (gun) Turret V right now without having trained Small and Medium yet to have to decide whether to wait until the expansion to be able to use Large T2 guns. The other option is to reimburse skillpoints for any levels trained in both Small and Medium (gun) Turret if Large (gun) Turret is at V when the expansion is released.
    Aliventi
    Rattini Tribe
    Minmatar Fleet Alliance
    #139 - 2013-10-02 18:34:38 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Sorry, there is nothing planned for missile requirements right now. However, we'll need to have a full module tiericide at some point, and this could be a good thing to look at then.

    Also remember, training a Tech2 turret faster doesn't necessarily mean you can effectively use it without the support skills.

    How far away is that? You have a better idea of all the ships that still need to be rebalanced before a mod tiericide and how long that will take than most anyone else. It seems like such a shame to have missile users train twice as hard, to the tune of over 2.3 mil SP which is over a month to two months of training time if they train all levels, to be just as effective as their turret based counterparts in the mean time.
    JamnOne
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #140 - 2013-10-02 19:09:18 UTC
    Hey CCP Ytterbium,

    I have a question about this part.

    "if you have Amarr Cruisers at level 1 but lose Amarr Destroyers 3 for some unlikely reason, it will keep showing 0 days since you can still fly the Arbitrator."

    If I am reading this right it sounds like that if my clone isn't up to date and I die (as I usually do...lol) and lose Destroyer 3 I can still fly cruisers. Does this mean I can still level up Cruisers since I have already trained it to one and then progress to HACs without ever having to train the Destroyer ship again?