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Dev blog: License to kill: Certificates Overhaul

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Alim Omaristos
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#101 - 2013-10-01 04:18:40 UTC
Mioelnir wrote:
If the Panther keeps its recommendation of Artillery with Active Armor Tanking I'll make fun of the certificate system next Fanfest again (if you don't know why this recommendation is funny: try fitting it).

PS: sad that newer players will never again feel the sense of accomplishment of having t2 large turrets.



I trained large guns to V motion prediction to V and then starred training small guns to V and small gun spec, this was announced today and I'm honestly happy I don't have to train medium guns, I don't like flying cruisers. I felt no sense of accomplishment only annoyance that I couldn't train things I wanted to train in order to get large T2s.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#102 - 2013-10-01 06:43:43 UTC
Soaran Sikadi wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
A few comments:
- You should make T2 ammo usable in faction guns while you're at it.

-Liang


This doesn't really seem like a good idea to me. At the moment there is a notable tradeoff (isk value notwithstanding) when selecting between faction and T2 guns - one of them gives you more selection on projection, and one gives you more damage (at a pretty big price tag in most cases). This seems like a nice decision to have people make when fitting ships.


Last I looked T2 guns actually outdamage faction by a fair amount once you factor in the specialization skill. The T2 ammo restriction to T2 guns means that T2 guns completely (and I do mean completely) obsolete faction guns.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Tlat Ij
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#103 - 2013-10-01 06:54:27 UTC
1. The new char sheet is too bland. The icons look pretty much the same at a quick glance. Put colour in them so you can see the difference quickly like the current system has and also you have in the other windows for the new system.

2. Why do t2 lasers have a primary skill req of turret 5 but the projectiles and hybrids only need turret 4? You show that both TQ and the new system are like that? It doesn't make much sense tbh since all other t2 items need primary skill 5 to use.
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#104 - 2013-10-01 07:16:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Uppsy Daisy
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Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#105 - 2013-10-01 07:46:12 UTC
Nice and all but... I was hoping for something "gamey" involved. You know, new content of a game like nature that I can play with/explore/achieve. Apparently NPE always get attention in any expansion and I hope this update is to cover that.

Now I am looking forward to hear about the Rubicon content for the non-new player.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#106 - 2013-10-01 08:55:16 UTC
Meh, except skills changes for bigger guns this changes nothing really for players. Everybody uses 3rd party tools for skill planning anyway because apparently you have no will to implement one in-game so while better visualisation and getting rid of obsolete clicks and data is cool overall your effort is futile. Unless of course this is just clean up before introducing real content involving certificated and masteries.

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Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#107 - 2013-10-01 09:29:56 UTC
Overall this is a good change, but some of those level V mastery certificates are a bit of a joke with regards to what they want at Level V.

Astronautics Rigging 5? If you're training that then you've either got 100m skillpoints or the game is encouraging you to train things which have absolutely no benefit in relation to the time they take.

The same goes with the now pretty useless shield resistances, gunnery specs and so on.

They represent a bad progression for anyone using the certificates for people planning skills. CCP needs to lower them to IV which is as mastered as you're ever going to need until you have nothing better to train.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#108 - 2013-10-01 09:43:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Terrorfrodo
It's hard to imagine a feature more boring than this P I hope it did not take much work.

Most of this stuff I have already skilled anyway, and anyhow I don't need stupid certificates to tell me what to train, that is what EVEmon is for and has been doing great for many years.

edit: Also, if this is true

Sentient Blade wrote:
Overall this is a good change, but some of those level V mastery certificates are a bit of a joke with regards to what they want at Level V.

Astronautics Rigging 5? If you're training that then you've either got 100m skillpoints or the game is encouraging you to train things which have absolutely no benefit in relation to the time they take.

then the new system is just as useless as the old one. If you seriously suggest to anyone to train Astronautics Rigging to V, EVER, then every player will rightly continue to tell newbies: Forget the certificate system, it is crap.

.
Mashie Saldana
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#109 - 2013-10-01 09:51:10 UTC
Sentient Blade wrote:
Overall this is a good change, but some of those level V mastery certificates are a bit of a joke with regards to what they want at Level V.

Astronautics Rigging 5? If you're training that then you've either got 100m skillpoints or the game is encouraging you to train things which have absolutely no benefit in relation to the time they take.

The same goes with the now pretty useless shield resistances, gunnery specs and so on.

They represent a bad progression for anyone using the certificates for people planning skills. CCP needs to lower them to IV which is as mastered as you're ever going to need until you have nothing better to train.

You know, the whole point of maxing out the Mastery level to 5 on a ship isn't for 1m SP noobs, it is for those of us starting to reach 200m SP and running out of fun stuff to train.

I can't wait to nail mastery 5 for every sub cap in game.

How to win EVE
Yongtau Naskingar
Yongtau Naskingar Corporation
#110 - 2013-10-01 11:19:02 UTC
I think it's looking really shiny :) I just hope you let me keep showing off with certificates.
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
#111 - 2013-10-01 12:00:29 UTC
Seems like a pretty well thought-out change, good work CCP.

Some minor comments:

  • As has been noticed, missile training is kinda unbalanced with gunnery. Missiles have 2 skills per size and a whole different set of support skills. So while I'm not against the more specialized gunnery training approach I think missile skills need something in return.

  • Hull Tanking Elite. If you can't find a place for fun certificates in this new condensed system I understand and I'll get over it, but if you somehow manage to keep it in you're my heroes.

  • Good riddance to the Claim Certificates button! It's not needed for skills and it's not needed for certs either IMO. Some people seem to like it cause the short automatic notification is not enough for them, maybe you could have a certificate (and even mastery) history similar to skill history, so people can check out what they recently acquired.

  • Regarding Astronautics Rigging V. I think people claiming this system will be useless for noobs because of AR V in the Mastery V completely misunderstand what Mastery V is supposed to mean. It's not anywhere close to noob level, maxed mastery is obviously an "endgame achievement" for people with 100+m SP. Level V mastery seems to say "I have maxed every flipping skill that this hull could ever possibly use." And while I can understand that people want those golden wings (I want them too and I probably won't have any) I think it's alright to go a bit over the top regarding prereqs at the highest level.

Alticus C Bear wrote:
Nice changes, is the ship skill itself required for the ship mastery level? If not it leaves a big hole in the suggested performance a ship might have as represented by the mastery level.
The last pic in the blog implies that mastery will only take certificates into account. But I don't see this as much of a problem cause when you look at the ship you'll see both icons next to each other and if the prereq icon doesn't have a star that's an obvious improvement possibility before even considering mastery.

Marcel Devereux wrote:
Since this will break third-party apps, can we have a preview of the data dump/API so we can start preparing for this?
This, it's not needed right now of course. But it would be great to know the exact API changes in advance to prepare stuff.

stoicfaux wrote:
b) The large gunnery pre-req windows are backwards in terms of Primary and Tertiary skills e.g. "Large Artillery V" should be in the Primary as oppose to "Large Artillery IV." It's a clarity issue.
I assume you mean "Large Projectile". First of all LP V is not a requirement in that example, it's a nested requirement and therefore not actually needed. Secondly, they already wrote that they are getting rid of calling prereqs Primary/Secondary/etc.
Alexander the Great
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#112 - 2013-10-01 12:01:40 UTC
Are you taking away my HULL TANKING ELITE?
Senshi Teichou
Free Space Organization
#113 - 2013-10-01 12:03:47 UTC
i think you made an error there, hybrid and projectile guns only requiring their skill at lvl 4..

for example on this picture:
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/65175/1/Lturretsafter.png

another thought on this same image:

why not remove "large ... turret level 5" and "gunnery level 5" from the requirements?

simply because "large ... specialization level 1 " has them included

also: one should not require support skills at level 5 to be able to start training the specialization imo
Lilliana Stelles
#114 - 2013-10-01 12:13:33 UTC
PLEASE let us keep public certs.

Not that we need them.

But just don't remove them.

It's like the jukebox.

You never know when you might want it.

Not a forum alt. 
Soaran Sikadi
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#115 - 2013-10-01 12:47:47 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Soaran Sikadi wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
A few comments:
- You should make T2 ammo usable in faction guns while you're at it.

-Liang


This doesn't really seem like a good idea to me. At the moment there is a notable tradeoff (isk value notwithstanding) when selecting between faction and T2 guns - one of them gives you more selection on projection, and one gives you more damage (at a pretty big price tag in most cases). This seems like a nice decision to have people make when fitting ships.


Last I looked T2 guns actually outdamage faction by a fair amount once you factor in the specialization skill. The T2 ammo restriction to T2 guns means that T2 guns completely (and I do mean completely) obsolete faction guns.

-Liang


This depends on the level of faction and the level of specialization. For example, at specialization 1 (yes, this is a little unlikely) even the Federation Navy blasters will outdamage T2 ones. At the highest end of faction, the special forms of guns will even outdamage someone with a specialization of 5.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#116 - 2013-10-01 13:54:15 UTC
Good feedback, replying to some points:


  • Is the ship itself required in the mastery level?
    • No, the ship competency itself is dealt through Spaceship Command skills, which is shown int he "requirement" tab and through the relevant skill icon. Spaceship Command skills tell you if you can fly the ship or not, masteries give a recommend ship layout. Both are relevant.

  • How about Tech2 ammunition, will the skill requirements change too?
    • Yes, all the Tech2 ammos require the Turret specialization skills, which are the ones being changed in the first place - sorry, should have been clearer in the blog.

  • That's all nice and fancy, but what are you doing with HULL TANKING ELITE? Because it's a well-known fact that REAL MEN HULL HONOR TANK.
    • CCP Rise mentioned this issue a while back - this Certificate will go away in the new system (merged within Armor certificate). However, since it's serious business, we'll look into several options, but no promises P

  • Are there any ways to expose, or share skill proficiencies?
    • We are removing the "set as public" option for certificates, so not for now, but with the use of the API we're fairly sure third-party applications will take over.

  • In the blog, why do all Turrets require "Large / Medium / Small Turret" at 4 except for Amarr turrets, that are at 5?
    • It's a typo, they all require level 5. If you look on the same screenshot, under the sub-requirements, level 5 is needed as part of the specialization skill anyway.

  • Why do you require useless skills like "Astronautics Rigging" 5 for level 5 Certificates / Masteries?
    • Level 5 Certificates and Masteries mean that the player has totally maxed all skills available for that ship hull, no matter their relevance. It's meant as a very-high level goal and status symbol. It's to be able to say, that like the Immortals in the Persian Army in that 300 movie, you have everything trained and part of the elite. Well, until you meet some half-naked loincloth dudes with HULL TANKING ELITE guarding that Thermopylae chokepoint that is. Then you're screwed P

  • Could we get notification / pop-ups when unlocking achievements?
    • You could, and that's a fair point. I'll forward that around.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#117 - 2013-10-01 13:59:47 UTC
Been looking this over for a while, and you're kind of breaking things in a bad way.

OK, I get reducing the number of certificates might be a good thing, and from your example with a Mega, it works. However, what if I am (for example) a 'dictor pilot, and just looking to get the "Elite" (er l5/Master) certificates ... no big deal, except that in order to get "Navigation 5" for my awesome 'dictor, I NEED to train Micro Jump Drive to L5. Unless you're also adding those in as "small" modules now, it's adding a lot of pointless training time to show that I'm "as awesome as possible" at flying a dictor.

Also, keeping some of the useless certificates (Hull Tanking Elite) adds to the flavor without adding "needless complexity" ... also having that public is just hilarious.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#118 - 2013-10-01 14:17:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
  • In the blog, why do all Turrets require "Large / Medium / Small Turret" at 4 except for Amarr turrets, that are at 5?
    • It's a typo, they all require level 5. If you look on the same screenshot, under the sub-requirements, level 5 is needed as part of the specialization skill anyway.
    …just want to point out that “needed for the specialisation anyway” doesn't mean it's actually needed for the weapon in question, so make sure this typo doesn't go live.

    The difference is, of course, that as they were written in that image, you could lose the fifth level of hybrids and projectiles and still be able to use the T2 weapons, but not be able to do the same with lasers. After all, a pre-req to a pre-req is meaningless in terms of restricting your access to the item once you've passed that layer.

    It may not make a difference for the training required to use something, but it makes a hellalot of difference for maintaining that ability and actually using the item.
    Sentient Blade
    Crisis Atmosphere
    Coalition of the Unfortunate
    #119 - 2013-10-01 14:39:49 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
  • Why do you require useless skills like "Astronautics Rigging" 5 for level 5 Certificates / Masteries?
    • Level 5 Certificates and Masteries mean that the player has totally maxed all skills available for that ship hull, no matter their relevance. It's meant as a very-high level goal and status symbol. [/b]


    Except you removed the public option, so it's really not much of a symbol at all.

    If you want an option for "turned it all the way up to 11" then that's fine. But keep it distinct from the core certificate system that is meant to be used as a learning guide.

    For something like this I can't help but feel that Certificate V should be excellence in the field. Not "Spent months training skills to V which no-one would train to V except to say they'd trained them".
    1Robert McNamara1
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #120 - 2013-10-01 15:01:27 UTC
    the certificate system has always contained needless 'Elite certs.' I think people like completing stuff like this. It's why video games provide a % Complete stat for your save game. This is the eve equivalent.


    I also think CCP is wise to dump code no-one uses. If they have a feature, like 'make certs public' and the number of people using that feature is sub 0.1%, however people are achieving and accepting elite certs... then Drop the make public code, keep the elite certs, and make the whole thing more user friendly.

    This is seriously a slam dunk.