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Surviving an attack in a mining barge?
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Eli Kzanti
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2013-10-01 10:38:55 UTC
Its funny cuz I've been ninja salvaging lately >_>

And aye - but then you get the results of that 'situational awareness'. Some random guy flies past in a catalyst, what do you do? Bail? Then you're losing the only advantage a retriever really has over a procurer - its ability to mine a bit more ore. You have to waste time avoiding people when you could just sit there basically oblivious to the world in an 70-80k EHP (since thats roughly what most will have) mining barge... mining continuously and happily... and the worst they might try to do is bump you. If they try that, well, you are faster and more agile than the other barges anyway so dodging is a simple matter =P

I mean, we are in New Character Q&A after all - they are likely trying to mine in those horribly crowded areas where newbies live, with new names and faces in local day after day and destroyers zipping around on d-scan all over the place...
Velicitia
XS Tech
#22 - 2013-10-01 11:26:07 UTC
there's a difference between "flies past" and "lands on grid", which is why your d-scan should be set pretty close (1-2 AU) so you can more or less filter out people "just flying by" in favor of people "coming this way". If you're aligned to a "GTFO safe" all the time, you can pretty much wait for them to show up on grid.

Now, "aligned" means "pointing in the right direction, and moving at least 75% of your max speed". For mining, it pretty much means you do this.


  • Set up two safe spots a minimum of 150 km from the farthest legs of the belt your traversing
  • Warp to belt, align to safe spot 1, and set speed to 60m/sec (IIRC barges top out at 80).
  • Start mining, switching targets as range changes
  • When you get to the end of the belt, align to safe 2 (i.e. turn around)
  • Lather, Rinse, Repeat til your cargohold is full


the whole time, you're watching d-scan for incoming bad guys. If someone is incoming, then you just hit "warp to safe" and bounce out to +150km from the belt, which gives you time to align/warp off to station or a POS. ALternative is to have the station/POS as one of the legs of the "safespot pinball" you'll be playing.


I agree that newbie miners will likely be in terribly over-crowded areas, and TBH, my feeling is that barges shouldn't even be in the rookie systems. You're wasting a lot of the barge's potential by mining in those over-crowded areas (small rocks + barge cycle time + whatever else I'm forgetting)

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Anthony Blunt
Appenzeller Kantonal Bank
#23 - 2013-10-01 11:28:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthony Blunt
Velicitia wrote:

  • Watch D-scan for incoming ships. 1.5-2 AU is generally sufficient to give a barge GTFO time, especially if you're continually staying aligned.



    • Propagating the myth of passive alignment.

    If you are not moving you are not aligned.

    "if you're not having fun in a sandbox, it's not the Sands fault" Jenn aSide
    Elena Thiesant
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #24 - 2013-10-01 11:35:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Elena Thiesant
    Anthony Blunt wrote:
    Velicitia wrote:

  • Watch D-scan for incoming ships. 1.5-2 AU is generally sufficient to give a barge GTFO time, especially if you're continually staying aligned.



    • Propagating the myth of passive alignment.

    If you are not moving you are not aligned.


    I take it you didn't bother to read her post right above yours where she states
    Quote:
    Now, "aligned" means "pointing in the right direction, and moving at least 75% of your max speed".

    ?
    Velicitia
    XS Tech
    #25 - 2013-10-01 11:40:28 UTC
    Elena Thiesant wrote:
    Anthony Blunt wrote:
    Velicitia wrote:

  • Watch D-scan for incoming ships. 1.5-2 AU is generally sufficient to give a barge GTFO time, especially if you're continually staying aligned.



    • Propagating the myth of passive alignment.

    If you are not moving you are not aligned.


    I take it you didn't bother to read her post right above yours where she states
    Quote:
    Now, "aligned" means "pointing in the right direction, and moving at least 75% of your max speed".

    ?


    beat me to telling him off Blink

    One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
    Tao Dolcino
    Garoun Investment Bank
    Gallente Federation
    #26 - 2013-10-01 12:00:09 UTC
    About the "all skills at V" thingie in EFT and such...
    No one has all skills at V.
    But it's the only way we have to compare fits between players. (or we could compare with all skills at 0, but i think that it would not be very useful Blink
    Bethan Le Troix
    Krusual Investigation Agency
    #27 - 2013-10-01 12:07:11 UTC
    Throxton wrote:
    1) In hisec, is the goal to be able to get away, or to tank long enough for Concord to arrive?

    2) Do gankers normally throw a warp jammer on the target to keep the barge in place, and is there anything that can be done about it? It seems recommended tanks don't include stabilizers , AB's or MWD's.

    3) How are drones used to protect the barge? By distracting the ganker, or trying to blow them up before Concord arrives? Any particular drone that is considered best at defending the barge?

    4) Is the ganker always destroyed by Concord, or can they escape to a station if they are quick enough?



    p.s. thanks for the earlier thread that included this: how to gank with Concord



    2) Gankers will warp jam you 99% of the time. Nothing can really be done to stop this. You should not be fitting inertia stabilizers, AB, or MWD or shield boosters on a mining vessel. You should be fitting shield resistence mods, and a combination of DC II and MLU's with tank related rigs.

    Oops. 1) Presuming you have left it that late to not be there tanking long enough for Concord to arrive is the obvious choice.

    3) Some people will say drones can be used to protect your barge. I personally would say it is unlikely to work. Occasionally you will see barges with shield repair drones constantly fixing them. This is usually a sign that the miner is AFK. AFK mining is not a good idea anywhere. Being AFK is nearly as bad as flying using autopilot.

    4) There used to be a trick involving an Orca but I'm not sure it ever worked. Yes as a general rule Concord will always turn the gankers ship into scrap metal.

    a) Gankers who are organised will generally send a non-ganking pilot into the system to scan mining vessels for those lacking a tank. You will NOT know you have been scanned. If you are a good target they will bookmark a rock near you. If you do not have local intel and contacts set up the next thing to happen will be you losing your ship.

    b) It is best not to mine in system/s patrolled byThe Code ala 'James 315' and his supporters. It is up to you if you choose to buy a mining permit from them. This supposedly saves you from their attacks but as others have pointed out they are the most vocal gankers but there are many others doing it too. A mining permit will not save you from them. The Code are not everywhere - use killboards to determine where they are not operating.

    c) To protect yourself from ganking you should do the following:

    c1) If possible fit enough tank to give your mining vessel a little over 24,000 EHP with high thermic & kinetic resistances. If you can't reach that figure or it will make your yield pathetic make sure your thermic & kinetic resistances are higher than your explosive & EM resistances. 24k EHP will save you from opportune and/or inexperienced gankers. Consider this to be your last of defense and not something you will wish to call upon.

    c2) Your primary defence against gankers is not being AFK. Your other primary defence is local channel, local intel, and your contacts list. You will probably mine in the same system or a small number of systems near to NPC stations where you have 'perfect refining'. Gankers will generally target an area or number of systems where they can find targets easily and will log on at the same time of day roughly.

    Setting up intel: Google 'EVE Kill' (A popular killboard.) select the first entry which should take you to the killboard. Select the 'search' tab then select 'system' and type the name/s of the system/s you want to mine in. Add any pilots or corporations involved in ganking mining vessels there to your contacts list as -10. If you have knowledge of other killboard/s you could check those too and do the same.
    While you are mining not AFK keep an eye on the local channel for those '-10' to come up. If they do it's probably time to either dock up or switch to mining another system. Also check pilots details in 'local' channel while you are mining. You will be looking for pilots with negative sec status. Also for pilots with 'Bios' or corp/alliance descriptions which suggest they are pirates or mercenaries. Keep an eye out for those. If you see more than one pilot with negative sec status from the same corporation/alliance in-system this is a sign you should dock-up or move to another system. Multiple catalysts can take down even the most heavily defended mining ship.

    As this is the new citizens Q&A area you are unlikely to be flying an Orca. If you are you should NOT be fitting cargo expanding modules in your low slots. A DC II and a module to increase your structure should be in those slots. Resistance modules in your mid slots and seriously consider a combination of tanking and cargo rigs for your rig slots.
    It takes approximately twenty Catalysts to take down an Orca - maybe more if it is heavily defended. So in most cases an Orca is fairly safe. Touchwood. Blink
    Elena Thiesant
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #28 - 2013-10-01 12:16:28 UTC
    Velicitia wrote:
    beat me to telling him off Blink


    I'm guilty of jumping on someone I thought was promoting passive alignment (they weren't), so this is my penance. Big smile
    Bethan Le Troix
    Krusual Investigation Agency
    #29 - 2013-10-01 12:21:08 UTC
    Others above are mentioning being aligned to safe spots or stations/ stargates. They also mentioning using 'd-scan' to check for gankers while mining.

    It is probable that 'newbie' miners will be mining in high sec systems rather than low or nul sec. To be honest it really isn't worth mining in low sec especially as you can get Pyroxeres in high sec depending where you mine. You can also find Hedbergite, Hemorphite, & Jaspet in grav sites in high sec. If Kernite floats your boat, although its so heavy your boat may sink, you can find that in high sec space and high sec grav sites too.

    Regarding mining in nul sec it is also unlikely newbie miners will be operating there unless they have good contacts and can mine in 'deep blue' alliance systems. Some will say mining in nullsec is safer than high sec - when they spout this rhetoric it means they are mining deep in alliance sov territory. Opportune mining in nul sec will likely get you a fast trip back to high sec in your pod - or worse!!

    Being aligned and using d-scan are primarily tactics for use in nullsec or for those brave/foolhardy enough to try mining in low sec. If you follow the information in my previous reply and decide to mine in high sec those guidelines will likely keep you safe. No guarantees given but they are the best tactics.
    Velicitia
    XS Tech
    #30 - 2013-10-01 12:44:46 UTC
    Bethan Le Troix wrote:
    Others above are mentioning being aligned to safe spots or stations/ stargates. They also mentioning using 'd-scan' to check for gankers while mining.

    It is probable that 'newbie' miners will be mining in high sec systems rather than low or nul sec. To be honest it really isn't worth mining in low sec especially as you can get Pyroxeres in high sec depending where you mine. You can also find Hedbergite, Hemorphite, & Jaspet in grav sites in high sec. If Kernite floats your boat, although its so heavy your boat may sink, you can find that in high sec space and high sec grav sites too.

    Regarding mining in nul sec it is also unlikely newbie miners will be operating there unless they have good contacts and can mine in 'deep blue' alliance systems. Some will say mining in nullsec is safer than high sec - when they spout this rhetoric it means they are mining deep in alliance sov territory. Opportune mining in nul sec will likely get you a fast trip back to high sec in your pod - or worse!!

    Being aligned and using d-scan are primarily tactics for use in nullsec or for those brave/foolhardy enough to try mining in low sec. If you follow the information in my previous reply and decide to mine in high sec those guidelines will likely keep you safe. No guarantees given but they are the best tactics.


    I don't really follow this post. I mean, in your previous post, you even say that
    Quote:
    Oops. 1) Presuming you have left it that late to not be there tanking long enough for Concord to arrive is the obvious choice.


    D-scan/alignment/etc are all meant to facilitate the "not being there" part...

    One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
    Bethan Le Troix
    Krusual Investigation Agency
    #31 - 2013-10-01 15:30:48 UTC
    I just re-read your instructions on alignment Velicitia. I suppose they are workable but travelling at 60 you may have 'going out of range' type problems. Also if you were can or freighter mining there would be obvious difficulties with it. I think if you were mining in difficult areas with a lot of New Order guys or other 'undesirables' then it would possibly be a necessary option. But if that was the case I would be relocating - EVE Online is supposed to fun. Not a pain in the ****. Life is too short.

    Sorry. Anger issues there. Twisted

    I'm still not sure D-scan is necessary though. If you have combat & mining drones to organise, selecting next rocks, haulage/cargo movements, watching local channel and checking out pilots that enter system as well as maybe chatting to your corpies I think that is enough to keep you busy rather than being AFK. Smile As I mentioned before if you have picked good system/s then you will not have that many 'undesirables' to look out for. The wild card being pilots in NPC corporations which can be a surprise threat. But if they are inexperienced and you have 24k EHP odds on they won't complete the job before Concord fries them.

    As regards picking good systems............I wouldn't want to encourage more 'newbies' to start mining. Blink
    Bobinu
    Unsober
    Last Picks
    #32 - 2013-10-01 15:38:37 UTC
    Does anyone mine in a BS's anymore? Bit tougher to Gank.

    Not sure on the Maths:

    Might be worth looking at, friendly RR (an alt in a T1 Osprey, giving shields) and boosts from Command ships, extra resists, shields and armour cant hurt.

    A friendly Falcon in system wouldnt go a miss!!

    Truth of the matter, Gankers going to Gank, well worth not being the easy pickings as mentioned above.
    Velicitia
    XS Tech
    #33 - 2013-10-01 15:41:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
    Bethan Le Troix wrote:
    I just re-read your instructions on alignment Velicitia. I suppose they are workable but travelling at 60 you may have 'going out of range' type problems.


    well, I'm not gonna just give up all my secrets ... but maybe if there was something that a corpie could use to slow you downBlink

    Bethan Le Troix wrote:

    I'm still not sure D-scan is necessary though. If you have combat & mining drones to organise, selecting next rocks, haulage/cargo movements, watching local channel and checking out pilots that enter system as well as maybe chatting to your corpies I think that is enough to keep you busy rather than being AFK. Smile As I mentioned before if you have picked good system/s then you will not have that many 'undesirables' to look out for. The wild card being pilots in NPC corporations which can be a surprise threat. But if they are inexperienced and you have 24k EHP odds on they won't complete the job before Concord fries them.

    As regards picking good systems............I wouldn't want to encourage more 'newbies' to start mining. Blink


    true enough, but it's still better that someone keep their eyes out (I hate mining drones myself ... so ... ).

    I mean, just for numbers sake, let's say either tactic alone will stop 50% of gank attempts. using them in tandem means that you're only losing 25% of the time ... give or take ... my maths might be way off by now ... been a ****** day trying to make RL ISK Blink

    One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
    Velicitia
    XS Tech
    #34 - 2013-10-01 15:51:10 UTC
    Bobinu wrote:
    Does anyone mine in a BS's anymore? Bit tougher to Gank.

    Not sure on the Maths:

    Might be worth looking at, friendly RR (an alt in a T1 Osprey, giving shields) and boosts from Command ships, extra resists, shields and armour cant hurt.

    A friendly Falcon in system wouldnt go a miss!!

    Truth of the matter, Gankers going to Gank, well worth not being the easy pickings as mentioned above.


    that 90k EHP procurer we were tossing around before jumps to 110 k if he has a nighthawk with T2 links (and the implant, ~105k without)...

    The retreiver fit I threw together has ~23k.

    note -- EHP is calculated against antimatter.

    One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
    Sin Pew
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #35 - 2013-10-01 15:53:46 UTC
    Velicitia wrote:
    Bobinu wrote:
    Does anyone mine in a BS's anymore? Bit tougher to Gank.

    Not sure on the Maths:

    Might be worth looking at, friendly RR (an alt in a T1 Osprey, giving shields) and boosts from Command ships, extra resists, shields and armour cant hurt.

    A friendly Falcon in system wouldnt go a miss!!

    Truth of the matter, Gankers going to Gank, well worth not being the easy pickings as mentioned above.


    that 90k EHP procurer we were tossing around before jumps to 110 k if he has a nighthawk with T2 links (and the implant, ~105k without)...

    The retreiver fit I threw together has ~23k.

    note -- EHP is calculated against antimatter.

    Don't forget possible titan boosts as well. Might as well cover all possibilities.

    [i]"haiku are easy, But sometimes they don't make sense, Refrigerator."[/i]
    Velicitia
    XS Tech
    #36 - 2013-10-01 15:55:51 UTC
    Sin Pew wrote:
    Velicitia wrote:
    Bobinu wrote:
    Does anyone mine in a BS's anymore? Bit tougher to Gank.

    Not sure on the Maths:

    Might be worth looking at, friendly RR (an alt in a T1 Osprey, giving shields) and boosts from Command ships, extra resists, shields and armour cant hurt.

    A friendly Falcon in system wouldnt go a miss!!

    Truth of the matter, Gankers going to Gank, well worth not being the easy pickings as mentioned above.


    that 90k EHP procurer we were tossing around before jumps to 110 k if he has a nighthawk with T2 links (and the implant, ~105k without)...

    The retreiver fit I threw together has ~23k.

    note -- EHP is calculated against antimatter.

    Don't forget possible titan boosts as well. Might as well cover all possibilities.


    well, in that case we should ping Chribba and get details on the Veldnaught and Veld-titans Blink

    One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
    Thomas Builder
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #37 - 2013-10-01 16:00:31 UTC
    Sin Pew wrote:
    Don't forget possible titan boosts as well. Might as well cover all possibilities.
    And while at it, just mine in that Titan. Or make that titans

    http://eve-files.com/chribba/mining_tango.jpg

    But seriously, all you want to do is not to be the squishiest target around. Usually just flying a procurer is enough to accomplish that goal, whatever his fit. You are overthinking it.
    Elliavir
    Miskatonic Mercantile
    #38 - 2013-10-02 04:37:06 UTC
    Lots of helpful advice above ... regarding situational awareness and how gankers operate and potential fits. The advice I would add is that if you don't like being ganked, you can lessen the probability of that by being a less-attractive target.

    As noted, flying a Procurer is a good start - I have an alt with meh-level skills who gets about 45K EHP with a tanked-but-not-bricked fit that still has some mining improvements. In a field full of Hulks/Retrievers/Mackinaws (does anyone even use Covetors anymore?), that is an unattractive gank target.

    Alternatively, you can ISK-tank - which means accepting periodic ship losses as a cost of doing business in return for being able to fit for more yield or mining in more profitable (and dangerous) areas.

    Don't AFK mine. If you get noted as an AFK miner, you will tend to get more gank attention.

    Don't be a jerk. While it's certainly not a foolproof strategy, getting known as 'that guy who talks **** in local" or "the miner who provides rivers of tears by ranting if ganked" can really push you up on the list of potential targets.

    If you do lose a ship that you didn't already write off as a business expense, learn from it. Some gankers will even tell you what you did wrong if you politely message them.

    CONCORD won't save you from war targets if your corp has been wardecced, and it won't save you from corpmates (including fellow members of your NPC corp - so you might want to get the hell out of there). CONCORD won't actually save you from anything... but if you are able to survive, you'll still be there to see them blow up folks who suicide gank.
    Eli Kzanti
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #39 - 2013-10-02 07:40:11 UTC
    Elliavir wrote:
    CONCORD won't save you from war targets if your corp has been wardecced, and it won't save you from corpmates (including fellow members of your NPC corp - so you might want to get the hell out of there). CONCORD won't actually save you from anything... but if you are able to survive, you'll still be there to see them blow up folks who suicide gank.

    *ahem*

    Quote:
    NPC corporation members can't shoot each others legally without prior flagging, like thieving

    How absurd would it be if they could actually do that? >_>
    Elliavir
    Miskatonic Mercantile
    #40 - 2013-10-02 14:44:38 UTC
    Eli Kzanti wrote:
    Elliavir wrote:
    CONCORD won't save you from war targets if your corp has been wardecced, and it won't save you from corpmates (including fellow members of your NPC corp - so you might want to get the hell out of there). CONCORD won't actually save you from anything... but if you are able to survive, you'll still be there to see them blow up folks who suicide gank.

    *ahem*

    Quote:
    NPC corporation members can't shoot each others legally without prior flagging, like thieving

    How absurd would it be if they could actually do that? >_>


    Handy to know... it's been years since I was in an NPC corp, and I've heard the "get out of NPC corps, they aren't safe" advice so often that I didn't question it.

    New Citizen's Q&A is still worth the educational read for old(er) citizens. Thanks!
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