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Balancing Feedback: Tier3 Battlecruisers

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Wylee Coyote
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#581 - 2011-11-15 23:39:50 UTC
Sam Bowein wrote:
Wylee Coyote wrote:
Ahem, Hurricane is split weapons as well, along with the Rifter...

No they don't.

Split weapons means a bonus for 2 different weapons, not some utility high slots… Otherwise the Raven is split weapons too maybe ?? Roll


Roll Split weapons has nothing to do with a bonus, and you obviously have no idea what a utility high slot is either.Roll
Wylee Coyote
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#582 - 2011-11-15 23:44:51 UTC
Jennifer Starling wrote:
Wylee Coyote wrote:
Ahem, Hurricane is split weapons as well, along with the Rifter...

How many people fit launchers on a Cane and how much skills do you need to fit a meta 4 rocket launcher on a Rifter compared to training T2 large turrets?


The point was about Minmatar ships being split weapon systems dominant, not whether it was worth it to train for both weapon systems or not (as has been posted, that opinion has changed over time and may vary well again).
Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#583 - 2011-11-16 00:03:50 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Here is the latest update on these ships:

NAGA


  • Missile role removed, now focuses as a hybrid platform
  • 10% Torpedo velocity per level swapped for 5% to Large Hybrid Turret damage per level


As pointed out, even with the velocity bonus, torpedoes have a too short of a range to be useful in practical situation with the Naga since it has the lowest mobility of all tier 3 battlecruisers and quite poor defensive options. Aligning this ship into a missile platform would have required a long range option as well, meaning the use of cruise missiles, which created a certain number of issues.

Specializing for a hybrid long range platform made more sense with the Naga role, which is why the damage bonus was appealing, especially when combined with CCP Tallest changes; it also makes more sense regarding Caldari tier philosophy, where highest tech 1 tiers usually are hybrid platforms (Merlin, Moa, Rokh).


If you want gank, make it a torp platform, instead of making the talos pointless in the rail role.

Think about it, with a few tweaks you can make it unique and powerful, role driven and still leave some room for the Talos.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#584 - 2011-11-16 00:41:57 UTC
Wylee Coyote wrote:


Roll Split weapons has nothing to do with a bonus, and you obviously have no idea what a utility high slot is either.Roll


Stop posting asap.
Wylee Coyote
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#585 - 2011-11-16 00:47:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Wylee Coyote
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Wylee Coyote wrote:


Roll Split weapons has nothing to do with a bonus, and you obviously have no idea what a utility high slot is either.Roll


Stop posting asap.


WowShocked

Not only are you really that clueless, but you're willing to show the entire community your cluelessness as well. My hat goes off to you.
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
#586 - 2011-11-16 00:50:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Patri Andari
Let us create two hybrid weapon ships with the same damage output at long and short range. One of them will have less range and drones while the other has more range and no drones!

No one will realize we just dodged the very hard job of balancing turret vs. missile ships!

Hooray!

Lazy gits

Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown
Justin Cody
War Firm
#587 - 2011-11-16 01:18:22 UTC
Face612 wrote:
This just makes the Naga a Rokh with a far less favorable tank.
Rokh: 10% to hybrid range 5% to shield resists.
Naga: 10% to hybrid range 5% to hybrid damage.

With the prices bound to be similar between them and the speed of the Naga not being it's selling point, what benefit is there to having the Naga over the Rohk? If the Naga could be used as a high speed blaster or torp boat it would give it an applicable role, smash and grab assault. Wit this ballancing the Naga does no better in cap or BS warfare than the Rokh which can stay in the fight a lot longer due to it's tank, increased PG and similar price/skills. IMHO, the Naga is out of place with this bonus set, simply making it a less favorable version of the tier three BS and no real individual role.



The build cost of the naga is roughly 55M...it will be much cheaper and when ab fit...able to sig tank bs's and caps. yay you for being upgraded with knowledge
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
#588 - 2011-11-16 01:57:41 UTC
It seems the powers that be have found that being lazy is fruitful. I will offer a few observations:

Caldari vs. Gallente

Gallente offer higher damage and poor range. There is no real way to account for the range deficit so they have additional damage from drones. Missile damage is more sure and therefore few Gallente ships can field few launcher slots.

Caldari offer higher (lol) range and poor damage. There is no real way to account for the damage deficit so they have additional damage from missiled. Drone damage might create an OP source of damage and therefore Caldari ships can field few drones.

This is my overview of CCP's philosophy. Feel free to offer your own.

You have painted yourselves into this corner and had a hard time finding a way out.

Solution?


1. Gallente ships retain their current damage bonuses to drones and blasters, but they loose their damage bonuses for rails in exchange for an optimal range bonus for blasters only. All other penalties and bonuses remain the same.

2. Caldari rail focused ships retain their current range bonus to rails and their slot layout for missiles, but they loose their range bonus to blasters in exchange for a damage bonus to rails only. All other penalties and bonuses remain the same.

3. Guristas ships revert to bonuses for both missiles and hybrid bonuses at any range. remove the resistance and drone damage bonuses while keeping the drone bay and bandwidth as they are. All other penalties and bonuses remain the same.



This is a step toward balance.

How does this apply toward the NAGA?

Give it the ability to field

*up to 8 hybrid turrets (blasters or rails)
*up to 6 missile turrets (cruise or torp)
* bonus to rail damage
*bonus to rail range
*no drones
*no missile bonuses beyond slot layout
*no bonus to blasters beyond slot layout


OR

announce NAGA as DOA

Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown
The Underdark
Perkone
Caldari State
#589 - 2011-11-16 02:38:11 UTC
The torps worked, my sisi missile skills are terrible and in a proper fleet, as glass cannons should be supporting, they killed well, obviously not as much with smaller ships, but it's a damn torp and it's not supposed to.

Please give the Caldari a proper missile ship that actually has 8 launchers, if range was the problem then a bonus just to torp range.. hell just give it a good torp range bonus with that being it's only bonus. since when has needing to be insanly close range been a problem? if being near or under point range is too terrifying for you, then stick with the drake or Cerberus .

and if the naga is "too fragile" to be that close of range, then it sounds like a damage bonus is justified.
Aversun
Systems Federation
#590 - 2011-11-16 03:01:11 UTC
on the Naga-Missile side myself. tier 3 already has a hybrid platform. otherwise might as well make the Naga a gallente boat and make a T2 Drake variant to fill the same role
Katabrok First
Apukaray Security
#591 - 2011-11-16 04:17:26 UTC
I'm totally on the side of the hybrids only Naga. I'm tired of caldari only being remembered by their missile boats. I used to do level 4's in a Rokh, and for me it was a lot better then using a raven, both in terms of fun and completion times. I just walked away the Rokh because it doesn't have a damage bonus, and the Naga has it, so I'm happy. BTW, I'm not implying that I will use the Naga to run missions, so that you know.
Dr'MeTaL
Taranis Innovations
#592 - 2011-11-16 04:37:49 UTC
the naga has been ruined. please stop forcing turrets on caldari ships, it is not better. every other race has a ship that can fit a full rack of racial guns. why doesnt caldari.

why has the naga turned into a wanna be gallente ship. if you ask me shield tank ships are bad because they cant fit a full rack of anything aside from the malstrom. ever notice that? if i want to use hybrid turrets i would fly a gallente ship. the full rack of torps was the only thing going for the naga. now its just a talos with a bad tank.

yes it has bad range with torps. thats how torps work.. if you want more range train for t2 long range torps. and even before the change. why is it the only one that cant use racial specific long range guns (criuse missles)

sry but again. if i want hybrids ill fly gallente. if i want missles i fly caldari.. oh wait, caldari cant even use missles. so whats the point. X

arg this kinda stuff makes me sad. is it so much to ask to make one caldari ship be able to use a full rack of 8 missles?
heck while your at it change the rohk, ferrox, moa, vulture, merlin, harpy and any others im missing to missles aswell. even minmatar needs some help. typhoon, tempest, hurricane and others if im missing any, change them to full racial bonus and weapons aswell.

i dont want a shield tanked talos. i want a naga, with missles. and heck while on the subject of missles. how about increasing velocity and droping flight time and make caldari just a little better with range situations.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#593 - 2011-11-16 04:45:01 UTC
Apex Bex wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:
It's your fault, you have known that Caldari uses both missiles and hybrids


It's the path I've chosen. Tell me this, had I trained nothing but Lasers, I'd still have a Tier 3 Battlecruiser to fly, would I not? And that race uses missiles too...

It's imbalanced, plain and simple.

Sure but you wouldn't have a recon.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Dr'MeTaL
Taranis Innovations
#594 - 2011-11-16 05:08:45 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Apex Bex wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:
It's your fault, you have known that Caldari uses both missiles and hybrids


It's the path I've chosen. Tell me this, had I trained nothing but Lasers, I'd still have a Tier 3 Battlecruiser to fly, would I not? And that race uses missiles too...

It's imbalanced, plain and simple.

Sure but you wouldn't have a recon.


False.
1 weapons on a recon are a luxury
2 pilgrim
Justin Cody
War Firm
#595 - 2011-11-16 05:33:57 UTC
Dr'MeTaL wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Apex Bex wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:
It's your fault, you have known that Caldari uses both missiles and hybrids


It's the path I've chosen. Tell me this, had I trained nothing but Lasers, I'd still have a Tier 3 Battlecruiser to fly, would I not? And that race uses missiles too...

It's imbalanced, plain and simple.

Sure but you wouldn't have a recon.


False.
1 weapons on a recon are a luxury
2 pilgrim


quit trolling the Naga fits a full rack of rails or blasters.

k bye thx
Justin Cody
War Firm
#596 - 2011-11-16 05:35:57 UTC
Dr'MeTaL wrote:
the naga has been ruined. please stop forcing turrets on caldari ships, it is not better. every other race has a ship that can fit a full rack of racial guns. why doesnt caldari.

why has the naga turned into a wanna be gallente ship. if you ask me shield tank ships are bad because they cant fit a full rack of anything aside from the malstrom. ever notice that? if i want to use hybrid turrets i would fly a gallente ship. the full rack of torps was the only thing going for the naga. now its just a talos with a bad tank.

yes it has bad range with torps. thats how torps work.. if you want more range train for t2 long range torps. and even before the change. why is it the only one that cant use racial specific long range guns (criuse missles)

sry but again. if i want hybrids ill fly gallente. if i want missles i fly caldari.. oh wait, caldari cant even use missles. so whats the point. X

arg this kinda stuff makes me sad. is it so much to ask to make one caldari ship be able to use a full rack of 8 missles?
heck while your at it change the rohk, ferrox, moa, vulture, merlin, harpy and any others im missing to missles aswell. even minmatar needs some help. typhoon, tempest, hurricane and others if im missing any, change them to full racial bonus and weapons aswell.

i dont want a shield tanked talos. i want a naga, with missles. and heck while on the subject of missles. how about increasing velocity and droping flight time and make caldari just a little better with range situations.



back under your bridge troll. Go read some back story on EVE. Gallente and Caldari are from the same star system, and were at one point the same empire until the caldari expanded secretly and went to war for their independence. They both use rails, caldari favor rails as they favor range in general.

somebody should spank you with a wet torpedo.
Apex Bex
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#597 - 2011-11-16 05:51:38 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Sure but you wouldn't have a recon.


My Falcon has smarties on it, but that's not the point.

The point is that missiles are the only primary weapon system not being represented with these new ships. Regardless of whether or not rails will work on the Naga, and I'm sure they'll work just fine, it's imbalanced.

Disciple of Bob
Justin Cody
War Firm
#598 - 2011-11-16 08:49:36 UTC
Apex Bex wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Sure but you wouldn't have a recon.


My Falcon has smarties on it, but that's not the point.

The point is that missiles are the only primary weapon system not being represented with these new ships. Regardless of whether or not rails will work on the Naga, and I'm sure they'll work just fine, it's imbalanced.


well I think your naga is gonna have smarties on it.

train a few skills then enjoy the ship. Rails have needed a buff and this ship is there to showcase it. deal with it. punk.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#599 - 2011-11-16 09:01:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Knight
Apex Bex wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Sure but you wouldn't have a recon.


My Falcon has smarties on it, but that's not the point.

The point is that missiles are the only primary weapon system not being represented with these new ships. Regardless of whether or not rails will work on the Naga, and I'm sure they'll work just fine, it's imbalanced.

So??? They would be useless anyway, large missiles are broken.

Btw rails are as much caldari's main weapons system as the missiles.
Fioda Skiza
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#600 - 2011-11-16 09:30:06 UTC
All the Caldari players who will suddenly realize after the expansion that they did NOT get a new ship to fly..
I seriously think that you don't want that situation. Give them a decent torpedo boat before it's too late.