These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Warfare & Tactics

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Acceleration vs. deceleration
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2013-09-30 14:44:55 UTC
Lets say I wanted to make a fit that could get the maximum possible transversal up close. So I would want to figure out the optmal combination of speed/agility/and tracking so that I could avoid damage while putting damage on the target myself. I was wondering though. Does the stat that affects how fast you can speed up (a function of inertia) also affect how fast you slow down.

In other words, when I cycle off my MWD/AB, if I'm dual prop fit, will I slow down a whole lot faster than I would have without the agility mods? The paradox here is, what affect the deceleration rate of your vessel? Is it an inertia mechanic that just mirrors acceleration or a fluid dynamics mechanic that is kind of like 'wind resistance'?

The reason this would matter is if I want to dual prop on something that can't be cap stable, what you might gain in agility, you may lose in the very 'jerky' nature of an 'acceleration mirror' model of deceleration.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#2 - 2013-09-30 15:56:31 UTC
Berluth Luthian wrote:
Lets say I wanted to make a fit that could get the maximum possible transversal up close. So I would want to figure out the optmal combination of speed/agility/and tracking so that I could avoid damage while putting damage on the target myself. I was wondering though. Does the stat that affects how fast you can speed up (a function of inertia) also affect how fast you slow down.

In other words, when I cycle off my MWD/AB, if I'm dual prop fit, will I slow down a whole lot faster than I would have without the agility mods? The paradox here is, what affect the deceleration rate of your vessel? Is it an inertia mechanic that just mirrors acceleration or a fluid dynamics mechanic that is kind of like 'wind resistance'?

The reason this would matter is if I want to dual prop on something that can't be cap stable, what you might gain in agility, you may lose in the very 'jerky' nature of an 'acceleration mirror' model of deceleration.


Transversal is not always related to speed. Its simply radians. While speed helps, keep the proper angle is if anything more important. In discusisons about acceleration / deceleration- you are making it more complex than it needs to be. Just look at your agility modifier (or align time) in Pyfa / EFT. That will tell you how fast your ship can change directions / accelerate. If you are flying a dual prop fit, then cap should never be an issue when you are running an AB. There will be no jerkyness, when you cycle off the MWD, and then immideately start your AB cycle. What will happen is you ship will slowly bleed speed from your MWD speed range, until it falls within your AB top speed.

To help with agility, there are a few things you can try.

LG nomad set
HG / LG Snake set
Nanofibers
Polycarbon rigs
Quafe Zero
EM-701/6 series of implants
zor's custom navigation hyperlink

If cap is becoming an issue, check out the zors custom link, or a few other MWD cycle time / cap reduction modifyers. That or just get better skills.

Speaking from experience (I fly a ton of dual prop ships) Getting under the guns is actually very simple, you don't even need an MWD or AB if your target doesnt have a web. The trick is manual piloting, which allows your ship to orbit others very quickly, within sub 500M ranges. Case and point, I once won a fight in my cerberus, by simply manualy orbiting a scram vagabond. His 220's were not hitting / glancing most of the time. WIth my web, i was able to speed tank him quite easily, and run him out of LASB charges.
Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2013-09-30 16:30:47 UTC
Yeah, as a minmatar pilot I think i'm underrating agility as a stat. I asked this because I WAS looking at nomad sets and thinking about what it would be like to be able to orbit half as close as the normal range. My question was only tangentially answered though, although I don't think it matters too much. I think you don't slow down as fast as you speed up.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#4 - 2013-09-30 16:49:16 UTC
Berluth Luthian wrote:
Yeah, as a minmatar pilot I think i'm underrating agility as a stat. I asked this because I WAS looking at nomad sets and thinking about what it would be like to be able to orbit half as close as the normal range. My question was only tangentially answered though, although I don't think it matters too much. I think you don't slow down as fast as you speed up.


Don't get nomads, as they are bad. Snakes if you want better 'apparant' agility. Nomads are always the worse option.
Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2013-09-30 17:34:09 UTC
Chessur wrote:
Berluth Luthian wrote:
Yeah, as a minmatar pilot I think i'm underrating agility as a stat. I asked this because I WAS looking at nomad sets and thinking about what it would be like to be able to orbit half as close as the normal range. My question was only tangentially answered though, although I don't think it matters too much. I think you don't slow down as fast as you speed up.


Don't get nomads, as they are bad. Snakes if you want better 'apparant' agility. Nomads are always the worse option.



See this isn't quite making sense to me because I don't get the math, but I would think that a 25% increase in agility would mean a >25% increase in transversal, while a 25% increase in max speed doesn't mean 25% increase in transversal. Additionally, if you are increasing your distance to target because you are going faster while your acceleration is staying the same, then your transversal really may not be increasing that much at all.
Vyktor Abyss
Abyss Research
#6 - 2013-09-30 17:47:43 UTC
Test server >>> that way

GO!
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#7 - 2013-09-30 18:46:16 UTC
Berluth Luthian wrote:
Chessur wrote:
Berluth Luthian wrote:
Yeah, as a minmatar pilot I think i'm underrating agility as a stat. I asked this because I WAS looking at nomad sets and thinking about what it would be like to be able to orbit half as close as the normal range. My question was only tangentially answered though, although I don't think it matters too much. I think you don't slow down as fast as you speed up.


Don't get nomads, as they are bad. Snakes if you want better 'apparant' agility. Nomads are always the worse option.



See this isn't quite making sense to me because I don't get the math, but I would think that a 25% increase in agility would mean a >25% increase in transversal, while a 25% increase in max speed doesn't mean 25% increase in transversal. Additionally, if you are increasing your distance to target because you are going faster while your acceleration is staying the same, then your transversal really may not be increasing that much at all.


Let me put it to you this way:

Nomads let you 'align' much faster, so you can achive a higher speed more quickly.

Snakes give you a much higher base speed with out causing an increase in your base align.

Becuase of this, if you have two ships both fit the same, except for one fit with Snakes, and another with nomads- imagine this.

Both ships turn 180 degrees and begin to accellerate. Nomads turn quickly, however the snakes because of the huge base speed increase means that (because the ship is traveling at a % of that speed while aligning) automatically means that the ship will be moving faster in that given direction. Snakes give a much larger increase in base speed, than LG nomads give to align time.

Also your math is incorrect, as agility doesn't translate to transversal as I told you earlier. You can have the most amazing agility in the world and still have 0 transversal if you are flying incorrecly. Transversal is just using radians traveld in a given time to out track the guns you are flying againts. So Its a mix of 7 variables:

1. Your apparant speed to the target
2. Your apparant angle to the target
3. Your distance to the target
4. Your Signature rez to weapon size
5. Target weapon's tracking speed
6. Target ammo
7. Drop Booster

Those 7 things make up for the tracking equation on any given situation.

While having a higher agility doesn't mean you will have better transversal, it can help you fly a bit more agressively than normal.

Like I said earlier, you are making this way, way to complicated. Get snakes / links / nanos / poly carbs, and learn to manually pilot correctly and you will be fine.
Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2013-09-30 18:51:15 UTC
more agility should mean i can fly in tighter circles at the same speed as before. I'm going to test this tonight with stabs and afterburners to find relationships between orbital velocity, agility and the 'floating range' set by your 'adjusted max speed'.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#9 - 2013-09-30 19:04:00 UTC
Berluth Luthian wrote:
more agility should mean i can fly in tighter circles at the same speed as before. I'm going to test this tonight with stabs and afterburners to find relationships between orbital velocity, agility and the 'floating range' set by your 'adjusted max speed'.


Yes fly a tighter orbit at a higher speed. So you can either increase agility or increase your speed.

As i stated earlier- snakes give a large relative boost to base speed, when compared to LG nomads. Because of this- for 99% of the situations you will be encountering, snakes will be far more useful to you. Also don't use stabs. Get nanos / polycarbs / quafe
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#10 - 2013-10-01 01:19:37 UTC
Best way = use missiles and not care about that stuff too much.

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney