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Implications of Losing the Customs Office HighSec ISK Sink?
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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2013-09-29 16:56:18 UTC
Yeah that's likely.

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Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#22 - 2013-09-29 17:06:03 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
$5 says someone monopolizes the POCOs and implements a 100% tax to shutdown all high-sec PI.


Who cares what the tax level is ? Adjust market sell order prices accordingly. End of story.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Karak Terrel
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER
#23 - 2013-09-29 17:08:24 UTC
SpoonRECKLESS wrote:
The amount of wars that will be started by this is the isk sink. Mercs will have even more useful role in high sec, Killing Pocos will become big money.I for one will enjoy the local banter to become common around heavy traffic areas.

Ships that blow up are now ISK sink. This does not remove ISK from the system. The only ISK involved in building a ship are the manufacturing job costs, which are a joke. On the contrary, if the ships are insured they become an ISK faucet because the ISK for those insurances comes from NPCs
Aurilen Baxtab
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-09-29 17:11:07 UTC
Sale of PLEX will go up, essentially increasing the cost per month for subscribing to the game. Very clever. Pirate
Adunh Slavy
#25 - 2013-09-29 18:28:59 UTC
Considering that price inflation is modest, in an environment of massive monetary inflation, loosing out on a rather small portion of the sink isn't going to make much of an impact.

Also, if the time requirements with regards to destroying POCOs, building them, harvesting resources and defending them takes away from rat shooting activities, then the overall impact of the loss of taxes could not only be a wash, but might reduce monetary inflation.

The less time spent shooting rats, the less ISK enters the economy.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#26 - 2013-09-29 22:19:49 UTC
CCP could easily overcome the loss of the high-sec POCO ISK sink by implementing the Bucket of Tears, a new novelty item thought up by a handsome fellow on the Ideas and Suggestions board.

Why, I bet making the Bucket of Tears the new ISK sink would completely take away CCP's need for any other ISK sink, ever!

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Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#27 - 2013-09-29 22:45:06 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
$5 says someone monopolizes the POCOs and implements a 100% tax to shutdown all high-sec PI.


Who cares what the tax level is ? Adjust market sell order prices accordingly. End of story.

Will not work when people who own the POCO pay zero tax and can undercut you.

I think alot of posters did not get the point of the OP. A NPC tax removes ISK from the game and reduces the total in circulation. Players buying and selling POCO to each other, or ships that get blown up, do not remove ISK from the game.

There is a view that the ISK supply increases inflation. CCP's economics guy says thats not what causes inflation. What causes it is the velocity of money. That is how fast it changes hands. Inflation occurs when everyone wants to spend their money, irrelevant of how much they have. Deflation occurs when everyone holds on to their money, either too scared to spend or waiting for lower prices.

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#28 - 2013-09-29 22:59:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Last we saw any numbers on it, PI stood for ~3.5bn outflux compared to the of the daily 2 trillion ISK flowing into the system. It compensated for a a whopping <2‰.

So yeah, BPOs and trading fees (and the simple fact that not every last customs office will be a POCO) will make keep that a rounding error on the overall scale of things.
Nivo Green
Stac Enterprises
#29 - 2013-10-02 01:16:31 UTC
So CCP announced that they are leaving the NPC tax on top of the new player tax so this isn't even a valid question anymore.

/thread
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#30 - 2013-10-02 02:21:32 UTC
Aivo Dresden wrote:
You do realise that you can set the tax rate right? Why would anyone go through the trouble of trashing your POCO if you have a low tax rate already? I'd rather just use the practically free structure that's already anchored in space than haul my own half way across the map just to gain 1-2 more mill a week ...


I Lol'd.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Karrl Tian
Doomheim
#31 - 2013-10-02 03:34:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Karrl Tian
Now highsec players can know the joy of structure shooting.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#32 - 2013-10-02 03:44:15 UTC
the isk sink is still there, just reduced. 5% NPC tax is minimum in highsec (with max skills), player taxes are on top of that.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#33 - 2013-10-02 03:45:19 UTC
Karrl Tian wrote:
Now highsec players can know the joy of structure shooting.

We'll spread this joy to everyone.

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Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2013-10-02 04:21:12 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
$5 says someone monopolizes the POCOs and implements a 100% tax to shutdown all high-sec PI.



If we're really lucky Goons will fall for this obvious CCP trap and their hold on null will be broken when a portion of their fleet is off protecting silly pocos while someone else is nibbling away at their nulpire.


Actually I do have questions on this and brought it up to some folks that do PI. They didn't know the numbers but they said it probably wouldn't work out well trying such a stunt.

POCO's are a cost saving convenience. You can jettison the stuff straight to space and pick it up - this costs more and is less convenient.

So if "griefing" is so trivial and easily bypassed, what value is there in not taking them and running them for profit?

Null wants some income to run empires then here's a source but one that may have pretty close to a zero grief factor if they do that for lulz. All I've heard was that if it did cut margins too low doing planetary launches, they'd shut down their PI pickups and weeks on end of that... Who eats the costs with no profits? This isn't a high-profit zone for PI.

Again, I don't know what the cost margin differences are but I'll bet this ends up working out more like lowsec - ~7% tax rate for use vs the current 15% with a steady flow of income for the owners of the POCO - probably null entities looking for steady "free" income.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#35 - 2013-10-02 04:30:09 UTC
Tithe ISK sink of NPC Customs Taxes will be replaced with the ISK sink of declaring war against Goonswarm.

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Gargep Farrow
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2013-10-02 04:45:34 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
$5 says someone monopolizes the POCOs and implements a 100% tax to shutdown all high-sec PI.



If we're really lucky Goons will fall for this obvious CCP trap and their hold on null will be broken when a portion of their fleet is off protecting silly pocos while someone else is nibbling away at their nulpire.


I doubt this is a trap set up by CCP. It is more a potential case of shooting themselves in the foot, because you know the Goons are asking for this change. It also wont be their nulpire that is lost, it will be their investment in High as sooner or later another threat will pop up in null and smaller alliances will take advantage and ravage Goon POCOS while they keep their fleet in null. They may get their LOLZ out screwing with High sec industry, but it will cost them in the long run if they over do it.
Flex Carter
Caldari Independant Mining Association
#37 - 2013-10-02 09:41:52 UTC
So let me get this straight, in Highsec I will still have to pay NPC taxes (which can be lowered from 10% via a skill) but along with the Player own POCO taxes they set?

Why the hell would anyone do PI in Highsec now unless they own the POCO themselves... Every Merc/War Dec’ing Corp out there will own hundreds due to the passive income they will generate.
Ra Jackson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2013-10-02 10:10:10 UTC
Keep in mind that the CCP tax rate is not replaced completely.

Aivo Dresden wrote:
You do realise that you can set the tax rate right? Why would anyone go through the trouble of trashing your POCO if you have a low tax rate already?


Because he can set his own high tax rate and make passive isk.
Ra Jackson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2013-10-02 10:19:48 UTC
Mocam wrote:

Actually I do have questions on this and brought it up to some folks that do PI. They didn't know the numbers but they said it probably wouldn't work out well trying such a stunt.

POCO's are a cost saving convenience. You can jettison the stuff straight to space and pick it up - this costs more and is less convenient.


Plus the fact that you cannot send material down to a planet without a CO.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2013-10-02 11:06:25 UTC
Nivo Green wrote:
**************
So CCP announced that they are leaving the NPC tax on top of the new player tax so this isn't even a valid question anymore.

/thread
**************

With EVE Online's coming expansion CCP has claimed that high sec custom offices will be able to be replaced with POCO. Many people have claimed that this is either stupid, as high sec resource harvesting sucks, or that the nullsec evil cartels will ruin the game. Regardless of these claims, there are still a ton of people fully living in high sec, and no doubt a large amount of higher tier PI production takes place in high sec around the hubs.

Until now this has always been NPC taxed as an isk sink, but with the coming change this will go away for all significant traffic highsec customs offices. My question to CCP is is this a significant ISK sink, and if it is what are they doing to counteract the loss of it if anything at all? If CCP thinks that there will be profitable customs offices, then they will be losing that tax with Rubicon. Looking at tier 4 PI components, there is about 500 billion ISK moved in that market a day globally, with about 45.9 billion moved daily in jita. Even if we only assumed 10% of this market was built in highsec planets, it still amounts to probably 25-50 billion isk a day which is getting taxed in highsec custom offices in t4 alone. Thats about 2.5 to 5 billion isk removed per day if its only 10%. This is not that significant at 10%, but I believe that quiet a lot more PI happens in high sec, and I did not even look at tier 2-3 products which are also likely produced.

Anyway CCP likely has much better data on this, and their choice to move forward with it likely means they either don't need the sink, or it's not that big of a deal. What?


Isk sink will NOT be removed. The fixed tax wil still be there, just reduced. That probably to ocmpensate the fact atha a LOT of time a lot of POCOS will not be workign because they will be in reinforced mode.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
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