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New dev blog: Player Owned Customs Offices: An update!

First post First post
Author
Anvil44
Avedis Corporation
The Vanguard Syndicate
#181 - 2011-11-15 21:06:24 UTC
Mikron Alexarr wrote:
Anvil44 wrote:
buncha stuff


+1 for thinking that maybe there's something to all the complaints rather than chalking it up to the "carebears rule!" mentality.

I will disagree and say that there are plenty of examples now where the player base has stood up, called bullshit on a feature, and it has been reexamined. We don't have to simply chill and adapt. That's the attitude that allowed such imbalances as HICs when they were first introduced. Cargo running was removed as a viable profession in the official framework of the game. It forced unreasonable work arounds that bastardized the core purpose of some ships (see: dread and carrier jump freighters).

If CCP is willing to listen and at least explain how they are addressing at least a large portion of the issues that were called out in the original thread, we would be having a very different conversation in this thread. I have a feeling this particular thread would be filled with, "Spot on team PI", and, "Great job, guys!" Instead, we still see the same complaints being registered over and over again.


Good point on the stand up and call bull **** part.

Just to clarify, my point on chill and adapt was to wait until we see how the changes play out. If you look at how hard people are speculating on what they will do with their new BCs when it wasn't even available yet on Sisi to test, you can see that conclusion jumping can be very rampant. As the ever-so-immortal Fred Flintstone once said: "She who jumps to conclusions may not like where she lands."

I hope that the light in the tunnel on this feature is not a Titan coming at us but more fun, shiny, rainbow land...in space.

I may not like you or your point of view but you have a right to voice it.

War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#182 - 2011-11-15 21:07:31 UTC
Jowen Datloran wrote:
Ah, so now it is the grammar that is wrong. That same thing that nearly made it impossible for me to understand CCP Omen. You really have the strongest arguments, WK.


PS. That is irony, in case you have again have difficulties with understanding.


I wouldn't say it was your grammar, it's your vocabulary. You're using words without knowing what they mean, apparently.

Take for example your sarcastic comment about my arguments. You called it irony. They are not the same thing.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.

Solo Player
#183 - 2011-11-15 21:10:06 UTC
CCP Omen wrote:
The player owned customs offices are meant to increase meaningful space conflict and the verisimilitude of the EVE universe.


CCP Omen,

please define what you mean by "verisimilitude".

If it means anything like what I think it means, that is "a plausible illusion of realism":

- I cannot understand how you can regard your implementation of POCOs to increase that - in fact, I feel you're doing the exact opposite.
- I must ask where this consideration went when you implemented features and mechanics like sovereignty, insurance, npc behaviour, npc markets, etc., where you reasoned it was that way for "balance", "fun", "ease of access", "handing power to the players" or similar.

I'm really big on verisimilitude, beyond any other consideration. Frankly, reading you use the term to justify these POCOs I feel pretty much spat in my face.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#184 - 2011-11-15 21:11:05 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
Jowen Datloran wrote:
Ah, so now it is the grammar that is wrong. That same thing that nearly made it impossible for me to understand CCP Omen. You really have the strongest arguments, WK.


PS. That is irony, in case you have again have difficulties with understanding.


I wouldn't say it was your grammar, it's your vocabulary. You're using words without knowing what they mean, apparently.

Take for example your sarcastic comment about my arguments. You called it irony. They are not the same thing.


Inconceivable!

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Anvil44
Avedis Corporation
The Vanguard Syndicate
#185 - 2011-11-15 21:18:18 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:


Inconceivable!


You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

LOL - nice.

I may not like you or your point of view but you have a right to voice it.

Vyktor Abyss
Abyss Research
#186 - 2011-11-15 21:25:14 UTC
Can we please have some difference between racial custom offices? - If not Winter then some short time after?

Even if this difference is aesthetic initially I think it would add to the game..... I mean each FACTION LP store is providing blueprints - please don't make them generic, this is an opportunity to add a little flavour. Same goes for Interbus customs offices....

Gallente ones should resemble Pleasure Hubs! Big smile

As for the rest of the changes, I'd prefer it if Interbus hubs were weaker....you know how long it will take players to clear them all?

I'm also sceptical about Low Sec PI - There really is no advantage of doing PI there, as it will likely be less secure than nullsec and not enough more raw product to risk it over high sec.

Other than that, should be fun. We'll see.
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions
#187 - 2011-11-15 21:33:56 UTC
Vyktor Abyss wrote:
Can we please have some difference between racial custom offices? - If not Winter then some short time after?

Even if this difference is aesthetic initially I think it would add to the game..... I mean each FACTION LP store is providing blueprints - please don't make them generic, this is an opportunity to add a little flavour. Same goes for Interbus customs offices....

Gallente ones should resemble Pleasure Hubs! Big smile

As for the rest of the changes, I'd prefer it if Interbus hubs were weaker....you know how long it will take players to clear them all?

I'm also sceptical about Low Sec PI - There really is no advantage of doing PI there, as it will likely be less secure than nullsec and not enough more raw product to risk it over high sec.

Other than that, should be fun. We'll see.


Ignoring the GLARING technical problems in the current implementation, I would say, racial POCO's make a ton of sense. If you guys put off this feature until the next expansion, you might even make the racial impact more than the visual components.
Maxwell Albritten
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#188 - 2011-11-15 21:42:31 UTC
Gasm wrote:
>>We hope that you like the adjustments we are doing, we certainly value the feedback!

I don't like the change, or the adjustments. At all. This is a bad change for the game, bad for CCP, bad for players, and very bad the "game designer" (lol) implementing them.

This is a really bad move all around. But your ears are plugged, it's clear, and you're going to do whatever you want with it. That's abundantly clear by now.... "game designer" Roll



Nope. This is a great change. You are incorrect and CCP is going to continue to make this one of, if not the, best expansion ever despite you're irrelevant pleas and nonsensical tears.

Hooray!
Ramman K'arojic
Lone Star Warriors
Brave Collective
#189 - 2011-11-15 21:43:50 UTC
CCP Omen wrote:
Here are some replies to topics raised:

"You did not account for all or even most of the feedback to the first thread"
We acted on the feedback that we agreed with and that was feasible within the time frame. Many ideas were excellent but too grand.




Yo Omen - Your comment may be valid - however have you considered that what impact your changes will have.

Please for Eve sakes prepare (and pritty please release) for each suggested item an impact assessment; what is the impact if its not fixed - how will it affect the economy, game play, use of PI.


Then ask yourself are the features your intending to give us worth doing half baked. (Seems to remind me of previous eve features that seemed to be not so well thought out).

Cheers and Beers
Ramm


Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions
#190 - 2011-11-15 21:46:35 UTC
Maxwell Albritten wrote:
Gasm wrote:
>>We hope that you like the adjustments we are doing, we certainly value the feedback!

I don't like the change, or the adjustments. At all. This is a bad change for the game, bad for CCP, bad for players, and very bad the "game designer" (lol) implementing them.

This is a really bad move all around. But your ears are plugged, it's clear, and you're going to do whatever you want with it. That's abundantly clear by now.... "game designer" Roll



Nope. This is a great change. You are incorrect and CCP is going to continue to make this one of, if not the, best expansion ever despite you're irrelevant pleas and nonsensical tears.

Hooray!


Careful, you're letting your character's age show. Also, I get the distinct impression that you haven't been paying attention to this feature since its announcement and the sensible arguments against this implementation and the preceding one.
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions
#191 - 2011-11-15 21:48:50 UTC
Ramman K'arojic wrote:
CCP Omen wrote:
Here are some replies to topics raised:

"You did not account for all or even most of the feedback to the first thread"
We acted on the feedback that we agreed with and that was feasible within the time frame. Many ideas were excellent but too grand.




Yo Omen - Your comment may be valid - however have you considered that what impact your changes will have.

Please for Eve sakes prepare (and pritty please release) for each suggested item an impact assessment; what is the impact if its not fixed - how will it affect the economy, game play, use of PI.


Then ask yourself are the features your intending to give us worth doing half baked. (Seems to remind me of previous eve features that seemed to be not so well thought out).

Cheers and Beers
Ramm




THIS THIS THIS AND MORE THIS ^^^ This guy has hit the nail on the head. Show us these types of reports (You could even put an RP spin on it coming from Concord!) and allow us to comment on those concerns and have us create reports of our own!
Maxwell Albritten
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#192 - 2011-11-15 22:01:35 UTC
Mikron Alexarr wrote:
Maxwell Albritten wrote:
Gasm wrote:
>>We hope that you like the adjustments we are doing, we certainly value the feedback!

I don't like the change, or the adjustments. At all. This is a bad change for the game, bad for CCP, bad for players, and very bad the "game designer" (lol) implementing them.

This is a really bad move all around. But your ears are plugged, it's clear, and you're going to do whatever you want with it. That's abundantly clear by now.... "game designer" Roll



Nope. This is a great change. You are incorrect and CCP is going to continue to make this one of, if not the, best expansion ever despite you're irrelevant pleas and nonsensical tears.

Hooray!


Careful, you're letting your character's age show. Also, I get the distinct impression that you haven't been paying attention to this feature since its announcement and the sensible arguments against this implementation and the preceding one.


Careful, you're letting your character's cognitive failings show.

Yes, I've read. The argument boils down to "I don't want to change. I like PI by myself and other players are scary". Now, some posts are much more long-winded than one sentence, sure, but I'm talking about big picture stuff. There are still some actual good and relevant suggestions in here, but they are drowned out by meaningless whines.
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions
#193 - 2011-11-15 22:19:42 UTC
Maxwell Albritten wrote:
Mikron Alexarr wrote:
Maxwell Albritten wrote:
Gasm wrote:
>>We hope that you like the adjustments we are doing, we certainly value the feedback!

I don't like the change, or the adjustments. At all. This is a bad change for the game, bad for CCP, bad for players, and very bad the "game designer" (lol) implementing them.

This is a really bad move all around. But your ears are plugged, it's clear, and you're going to do whatever you want with it. That's abundantly clear by now.... "game designer" Roll



Nope. This is a great change. You are incorrect and CCP is going to continue to make this one of, if not the, best expansion ever despite you're irrelevant pleas and nonsensical tears.

Hooray!


Careful, you're letting your character's age show. Also, I get the distinct impression that you haven't been paying attention to this feature since its announcement and the sensible arguments against this implementation and the preceding one.


Careful, you're letting your character's cognitive failings show.

Yes, I've read. The argument boils down to "I don't want to change. I like PI by myself and other players are scary". Now, some posts are much more long-winded than one sentence, sure, but I'm talking about big picture stuff. There are still some actual good and relevant suggestions in here, but they are drowned out by meaningless whines.


Character's cognitive failings... hmmm. I suppose if you only read a small subsection of the problems and have no experience actually taking advantage of the CO's in low-sec on a regular basis, you might think that you have a clue. When I said, "...letting your character's age show." what I actually meant is that you are displaying the same short-sightedness of a 12 year old that has yet to experience all of what the world has to offer. So, before accusing me of "cognitive failings", please take a step back and realize that the majority of the complaints are not actually about interacting with other players. The complaints revolve around how this 'feature' will affect the Eve economy as a whole.

It is not actually possible to play Eve without interacting with players at some point. Suggesting that players would complain about that, even facetiously, has no basis whatsoever. I cite numerous calls to allowing courier contracts directly from the CO's, so that players won't have to interrupt their other money making activities (typically involving market transactions or PVP, both of which making use of the social aspects of Eve) to fly to said low sec planets and take the time to pick up all their products.

I'm not going to go into why this feature will discourage player interaction. If you haven't picked it up from the previous discussions, you have no business speaking in this thread.
Havegun Willtravel
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
#194 - 2011-11-15 22:20:34 UTC
As best I can see the number one concern that was widely expressed has been dealt with, all CO's will stay in place until destroyed. For those people who do PI in out of the way backwaters and were concerned that they'd loose functional access to their planets, problem solved 100%.

For those people who are stressed that BPC's will be unavailable, dont worry. The amount of Concord LP generated in the last 3 months is astronomical, the same can be said for FW. As with every commodity in EVE there will be competition on pricing from day 1. At worst you only need to wait 2 weeks or months for them to hit rock bottom, and then profit. At worst don't destroy the existing CO's in your wormhole and win to.

In a wildly optimistic way Kitten is right, this is a buff to the various people who live in low sec full time. PCO's can be a viable revenue generator in and of themselves and have the potential to spin off additional revenue in the local low sec market. How many of the pirates and gankers that I encounter on a daily basis are likely to do this ? I'd be stunned if one let alone two did. In much the same way I'd be equally surprised to see them bother shooting the Interbus one's, but that is minutely possible.

To pmchem, thanks for doing all that math. I must admit that I assumed a 100% tax was equivalent to being locked out but you've proved that to be quite wrong. The arbitrary or non market value being assigned at present has the potential to be troublesome. I would have preferred that the tax rate have been an actual material amount taken as opposed to a new isk generator. It should be noted however that most p3's aren't made in high sec, at least not from low sec base components. It's often to risky, and in general for to inefficient, to move that volume of material for final processing to high sec. ATM I would say that most savy people who do PI in low sec run the entire process from start to finish in place and then haul out the completed robotics or guidance systems. That said, how does this effect your estimates ? At what estimated tax rate does it become smarter to move p3 out of low sec and into high sec for final processing ?

Using pmchem's numbers, the estimated time to pay for a CO is @ 30 days with 110k volume per day at 20% tax . That seems a bit high by my estimates for what the average low sec planet generates in exploitable resources and for the number of people I see doing PI. Provided that griefing doesn't get out of control , the threat of which i think is greatly exaggerated, 60-90 days to return your initial investment followed by years of afk isk should attract a reasonable number of entrepreneurs and offer a viable risk v reward ratio for larger high sec corps.

The only thing i can see as being a cause for concern is if PCO's get added to the Hulkageddon 5 tally. Then I'd predict we see every smart person waiting till February to set them up and the prices of the BPC's crashing post launch. Fun times ahead.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#195 - 2011-11-15 22:31:25 UTC  |  Edited by: admiral root
The new changes look like quite the improvement on the original plan.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff

Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#196 - 2011-11-15 22:36:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Jowen Datloran
If people, for mental reasons, shoot at a CONCORD owned CO in high sec will it not trigger a global criminal flagging and make them feel the unpleasantness of a CONCORDOKEN? And if so (or not), maybe you should highlight that part a bit.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

rootimus maximus
Perkone
Caldari State
#197 - 2011-11-15 22:40:02 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Still, they should do better than to leave the BPCs at the mercy of people trying to suffer through faction wars or incursion runners.


Forgive me if I missed it, but did you ever offer an explanation in the original thread as to what the problem is with this? We do fine with covetor BPOs being seeded in exactly 2 stations. There are plenty of Concord stations scattered around and I would guess there's a decent number of stations with faction warfare LP stores.
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#198 - 2011-11-15 22:48:52 UTC
Maxwell Albritten wrote:
The main carebear-tear complaint I'm reading is "oh no, I'm forced to interact with people!" These things aren't going to be so valuable that a 0.0 alliance is going to super-carrier drop your customs station. So, you know, maybe get a contract with a merc corp to defend your stuff. Maybe actually get into a bit of pvp.

I think this could be a good possibility for small-gang pvp and could also make PI valuable enough for me to get interested in it.

But really, why do carebears hate playing with other people so much?


Random alliances hot drop into low sec to just blow stuff up for the fun of it. Much like the Honey Badger, "Supercap Aliiances don't care, they just do what they want!"

So they could free or a bazzilion isks and the result is the same. Slow day, no targets, just finished washing and waxing the cap fleet and my ammo is near its "use by date". "Lets go pop some CO's and see what kicking over the ant hill brings out".

More little guys get pushed out of already bleak and empty low sec. What happened to graduated risks, now low sec and null are identical for PI, actually, no, null is probably safer.

CCP, please consider selling Eve to a company with a clue. You lost yours.

Issler
Dalilus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#199 - 2011-11-15 22:52:09 UTC
Many of us have INTERBUS loyalty points and since they have no loyalty stores we cannot use them. Why not let INTERBUS also sell the blueprints? After all INTERBUS is looking after the Customs Offices until they get popped....
Chicken Pizza
One-man Armada
#200 - 2011-11-15 23:05:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Chicken Pizza
GREMLINS!!!