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What are the weaknesses of armor T3s + guardians in nullsec?
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Paul Tsukaya
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-09-28 20:51:47 UTC
From what I've read here, armor T3s + guardians are the bread and butter of fighting at wormholes.

Have you ever tried to take such a fleet into nullsec on a roam? What sort of problems have you encountered while doing so?
Sum Olgy
Perkone
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-09-28 21:06:43 UTC
You lot turn up?
HerrBert
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2013-09-28 21:09:55 UTC
Speed!

An Armor T3 Gang by nature is not really "fast".

Community-Challenge: Make Jack Miton sing a Duett with me. http://www.youtube.com/user/HerrBertism Jibbychiggawooooow - CSM 9 Corbexx
Apollo Eros
Percussive Diplomacy
Sedition.
#4 - 2013-09-28 21:25:10 UTC
Getting hot dropped?

[Triple OG LVL 5 Space Wizard]
Paul Tsukaya
Doomheim
#5 - 2013-09-28 21:26:11 UTC
HerrBert wrote:
Speed!

An Armor T3 Gang by nature is not really "fast".

Lets say an armor T3 gang ran into Black Legion flying shield Muninns. How would this fight go if it took place 50km off a gate in nullsec? How would this fight go if it took place at at hole in wspace? I'm really curious how differences in geography effect fleet balance.

[Muninn, Black Legion Muninn]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Damage Control II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Large Shield Extender II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

720mm Howitzer Artillery II,Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II,Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II,Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II,Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II,Republic Fleet EMP M
Small 'Vehemence' Shockwave Charge

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
W01F GEO
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-09-28 21:26:58 UTC
200 sniping tier 3 as usual?

www.no-ho.com
Paul Tsukaya
Doomheim
#7 - 2013-09-28 21:33:43 UTC
Sum Olgy wrote:
You lot turn up?

W01F GEO wrote:
200 sniping tier 3 as usual?

Apollo Eros wrote:
Getting hot dropped?

These responses are amusing, but what the thread is asking about is problems relating to armor T3s specifically, not problems that every fleet has in nullsec due to nullsec being horrible :P
Svodola Darkfury
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-09-28 21:39:28 UTC
Tech3/Guardian fleets are powerful because they can dish out a ton of damage close range, have huge buffer, and big tanks with the incoming reps. This makes them fairly powerful vs. volley fleets and anything else that wants to try to brawl. There are no hard counters for this kind of fleet; just lots of stuff that works well with numbers or positioning.

They tend to suffer vs. kite fleets that can string them out over 70-80km and move them out of potential guardian range but still too close to warp to. There isn't really a "counter" to them except a better Tech 3 fleet, or a larger fleet with cap support. If you can try to start to break apart their Guardian chain with Neuts, Jams, Damps, or pure damage focused on the Guardians. That being said, many Wormhole corps will fly with their Proteus' and Legions using their 3rd+ mid-slots for EWAR, such as Remote Sensor Damps with targeting range scripts, which reduces the effectiveness of any kiting/sniping fleets.

They're vulnerable to blobs, as many fleets are, but because they're slow for their size you may be able to work some blob magic and grab several of them before they are able to leave.

Svo.

Director of Frozen Corpse Industries.
Paul Tsukaya
Doomheim
#9 - 2013-09-28 21:48:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Paul Tsukaya
Svodola Darkfury wrote:
Tech3/Guardian fleets are powerful because they can dish out a ton of damage close range, have huge buffer, and big tanks with the incoming reps. This makes them fairly powerful vs. volley fleets and anything else that wants to try to brawl. There are no hard counters for this kind of fleet; just lots of stuff that works well with numbers or positioning.

They tend to suffer vs. kite fleets that can string them out over 70-80km and move them out of potential guardian range but still too close to warp to. There isn't really a "counter" to them except a better Tech 3 fleet, or a larger fleet with cap support. If you can try to start to break apart their Guardian chain with Neuts, Jams, Damps, or pure damage focused on the Guardians. That being said, many Wormhole corps will fly with their Proteus' and Legions using their 3rd+ mid-slots for EWAR, such as Remote Sensor Damps with targeting range scripts, which reduces the effectiveness of any kiting/sniping fleets.

They're vulnerable to blobs, as many fleets are, but because they're slow for their size you may be able to work some blob magic and grab several of them before they are able to leave.

Svo.

Alright. So the main reason it's uncommon to see armor T3 + guardian fleets in nullsec, is that they tend to completely welp when they get blobbed, rather than a good chunk of the fleet being able to escape? Making them juicy targets for whoever has 200 pilots in bridge range?

Cause I will admit, I've never had 200 sniping tengus go after my thorax fleet.
ROSSLINDEN0
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#10 - 2013-09-28 23:55:57 UTC
the BL fleet would win aslong as it could keep range, you couldnt tank that alpha no matter how good yours fits/logi pilots were.

http://kb.vergeofcollapse.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=26996

only idiots take t3's to nullsec
Paul Tsukaya
Doomheim
#11 - 2013-09-29 00:16:50 UTC
ROSSLINDEN0 wrote:
the BL fleet would win aslong as it could keep range, you couldnt tank that alpha no matter how good yours fits/logi pilots were.

http://kb.vergeofcollapse.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=26996

only idiots take t3's to nullsec

Is it easier to keep range in open space in nullsec, than it is when fighting near a hole?
Svodola Darkfury
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-09-29 00:53:34 UTC
Paul Tsukaya wrote:
ROSSLINDEN0 wrote:
the BL fleet would win aslong as it could keep range, you couldnt tank that alpha no matter how good yours fits/logi pilots were.

http://kb.vergeofcollapse.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=26996

only idiots take t3's to nullsec

Is it easier to keep range in open space in nullsec, than it is when fighting near a hole?


This is where the setup part comes in. When you jump through a wormhole, you're all under 10km from the wormhole (generally speaking) and there are limitations to what types and how many ships you can bring. Sheer numbers will overwhelm Tech3s very quickly. At large gang numbers, your tank becomes insignificant unless they are having trouble applying damage. Positioning is really important vs. T3s. If you land right on them, they're going to shred you before you can get a chance to apply any damage. A brawler fit (non-cloaky) Proteus can easily push 900-1000 DPS while sporting a 200-300k EHP tank, meaning that in a close-range fight they will almost always win. Once they stop being able to apply DPS, you start being able to eat through their buffer.

An important thing to note about my VOC Brethren's chest beating moment is that while they killed 71 ships and only lost 1, their 1 ship was worth 750 million, while the average value of the enemy ships was 80 million. And they didn't even lose a T3, that was just a pimped Guardian. So while you can "300" it up for a really long time in T3 + Guardians, if you aren't on a gate or wormhole, you're going to eventually die if they keep throwing numbers at you, and you'll probably spend more money than they did. Don't get me wrong, getting 71 kills for 1 loss is incredible, but for the null-sec guys sometimes it is a numbers game.

Food for thought.

Svo.

Director of Frozen Corpse Industries.
Tung Yoggi
University of Caille
#13 - 2013-09-29 01:31:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Tung Yoggi
I would say that the first and main weakness of a t3 fleet in 0.0 is its very nature: expensive, scary: attracts massive blobs, frightens the rest.

This is mainly why the T3 fleet is better used as a response fleet (used as a counter) rather than a roaming fleet (actively looking for fights), greatly helped by the surprise factor of wormholes. Start up a fire with whatever lighter comp, then switch to take 3 when, and if needed.

Luckily it's sturdy enough to fight larger gangs - it is its destiny anyway, yet has trouble versus kiting comps and clever usage of ewar, and generally a well prepared opponent (see the 'response fleet' thing).
Paul Tsukaya
Doomheim
#14 - 2013-09-29 02:32:56 UTC
Svodola Darkfury wrote:
Paul Tsukaya wrote:
ROSSLINDEN0 wrote:
the BL fleet would win aslong as it could keep range, you couldnt tank that alpha no matter how good yours fits/logi pilots were.

http://kb.vergeofcollapse.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=26996

only idiots take t3's to nullsec

Is it easier to keep range in open space in nullsec, than it is when fighting near a hole?

So while you can "300" it up for a really long time in T3 + Guardians, if you aren't on a gate or wormhole, you're going to eventually die if they keep throwing numbers at you

So by this logic armor T3 + guardian gangs would be frightened of the hole they came through unexpectedly collapsing behind them, as it means not only are they suddenly far from home, but their retreat is also cut off.

Is that conclusion correct?
HerrBert
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2013-09-29 02:37:41 UTC  |  Edited by: HerrBert
Basicly Yes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07PxgJmU_x8 PROOF!

Just watch the Local Counter in the right corner.


EveKill: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=19595499


Well i have to add:
The political Enviroment of Wormholes is a "confusing" mess. Most common agreement lies with in the wisdom of Bob, which brought many corps to a closer relation, so they exchange information / kills. But there is still the entire Wormhole Community that wants to fight in between and focus on Wormholes not 0.0.

So in the End if you expect to see a 300-400 man T3 Wormhole Gang blazing through 0.0 (numbers that the combined forces would easily put together) yeeah not worth the afford.

The advantage comes with your established Infrastructure, sure sometimes you have experts like VoC in the driving seat but most of the times Wormholers "just come out in a Nullsec". While for the Nullsec residents all Intel-Channels go blinky. That and the terretorial advantage thanks to cyno jammers and jump bridges. So while its fun to break into someones home and **** on the carpet, it's not smart to wait for the neighbour hood watch that is rammbling down the pipe in an unidentifiable kitchensink blobb screaming YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRR!!!!!!


Also killing 16b worth of Capitals is waaaay cooler than 500mil worth of cruisers.


So the real question should be, why are you not coming in?

Community-Challenge: Make Jack Miton sing a Duett with me. http://www.youtube.com/user/HerrBertism Jibbychiggawooooow - CSM 9 Corbexx
Ilaister
Binary Aesthetics
#16 - 2013-09-29 04:28:58 UTC
HerrBert wrote:
Also killing 16b worth of Capitals is waaaay cooler than 500mil worth of cruisers.
So the real question should be, why are you not coming in?


Answer our question now nullbear.
Paul Tsukaya
Doomheim
#17 - 2013-09-29 16:56:39 UTC
Ilaister wrote:
HerrBert wrote:
Also killing 16b worth of Capitals is waaaay cooler than 500mil worth of cruisers.
So the real question should be, why are you not coming in?


Answer our question now nullbear.

I have less than 2 million SP.
Ilaister
Binary Aesthetics
#18 - 2013-09-30 04:55:43 UTC
Paul Tsukaya wrote:
Ilaister wrote:
HerrBert wrote:
Also killing 16b worth of Capitals is waaaay cooler than 500mil worth of cruisers.
So the real question should be, why are you not coming in?


Answer our question now nullbear.

I have less than 2 million SP.


...

Fair enough.
Svodola Darkfury
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2013-10-01 04:42:45 UTC
Paul Tsukaya wrote:
Svodola Darkfury wrote:
Paul Tsukaya wrote:
ROSSLINDEN0 wrote:
the BL fleet would win aslong as it could keep range, you couldnt tank that alpha no matter how good yours fits/logi pilots were.

http://kb.vergeofcollapse.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=26996

only idiots take t3's to nullsec

Is it easier to keep range in open space in nullsec, than it is when fighting near a hole?

So while you can "300" it up for a really long time in T3 + Guardians, if you aren't on a gate or wormhole, you're going to eventually die if they keep throwing numbers at you

So by this logic armor T3 + guardian gangs would be frightened of the hole they came through unexpectedly collapsing behind them, as it means not only are they suddenly far from home, but their retreat is also cut off.

Is that conclusion correct?



Unexpectedly is not the right word. They're going to know with a degree of certainty that their wormhole is going to survive because they're going to be counting the ships and measuring the mass. The only way that they wouldn't know is if you watch them leave system, crush the wormhole while they're gone, thus potentially stranding them deeply in hostile territory. Most Null-sec entities avoid dealing with wormholes though due to discomfort/lack of knowledge in the area. With a T3+Guardian fleet they can move relatively safely through null-sec because their forward scouts are going to see blobs forming ahead of them.

Svo.

Director of Frozen Corpse Industries.
Joan Greywind
The Lazy Crabs
#20 - 2013-10-01 06:37:14 UTC
Svodola Darkfury wrote:
Paul Tsukaya wrote:
ROSSLINDEN0 wrote:
the BL fleet would win aslong as it could keep range, you couldnt tank that alpha no matter how good yours fits/logi pilots were.

http://kb.vergeofcollapse.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=26996

only idiots take t3's to nullsec

Is it easier to keep range in open space in nullsec, than it is when fighting near a hole?


T3s. If you land right on them, they're going to shred you before you can get a chance to apply any damage. A brawler fit (non-cloaky) Proteus can easily push 900-1000 DPS while sporting a 200-300k EHP tank, meaning that in a close-range fight they will almost always win. Once they stop being able to apply DPS, you start being able to eat through their buffer.


Svo.


Link fit?
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