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Question for CCP - Is this RMT officially allowed?

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#61 - 2013-09-28 12:28:50 UTC
Trit wrote:
Elizabeth Norn wrote:
They don't give you ISK, they give you Blink Credit. You can't spend Blink Credit in-game. Stop being silly.

Right because you cannot use blink credit to win in game items and then sell those items for isk.
…which still doesn't make Blink Credit the same as ISK. You're still not getting any kind of in-game item for the real money they get from the affiliate sale.

Quote:
Having read further it seems that the arguement is that since you did not buy isk directly it is ok, So all the people that have been banned for selling navy ravens on ebay should be given their accounts back.
No. They were still trading in-game items for out-of-game products and services.
In fact, if you want to go after Somer, the angle you should take is not one of looking at their GTC sales but of their blink credit sales. That is where the in-game/out-of-game boundary is broken (twice: once when you cash in ISK, another when you cash out prizes).

…but even then, since it's largely a closed system with in-game-item in (loosely) coupled with in-game-item out at the other end, the RMT angle is still very tenuous.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#62 - 2013-09-28 13:53:07 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:

So CCP just need to clarify this themselves that its not against the EULA, and we can all start churning out the cash,


Actually this is already going even without clarifiying anything. It'd just be a more transparent behavior.

CCP are ultimately out to make money.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#63 - 2013-09-28 13:55:00 UTC
Tiffany Kautsuo wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:

RMT has nothing to do with the fact that you can win or lose.
At the end of the day it comes to one simple fact. Somer gives out ISK and in return gets cash. They are using their isk to make cash. That is RMT. If it's valid because it's hidden behind a "game" then anyone can make a site selling any in game item or isk for tokens in their "game".

In this case it's done through a referral, so Somer are giving you isk to buy something through them. That's no different from an RMTer getting you to buy some arbitrary product for which they get paid in exchange for isk. If it's allowed, it opens up enormous loopholes which allows RMT.


It is valid because it is not hidden behind a game, its use of in game functions and real world application of marketing, strategy and basic business.

Which STILL does not mean that CCP have sanctioned RMT. Which your entire thread was originally about....

No, SOMER is not perfect. Yes there could be changes made to improve its operations. And no, it is still not an example of RMTing.

I think it is clear that the only thing you buy is the GTC, just as from any other seller. Receiving the bonus is just that, if you can make a profit from it good for you. I doubt SOMER have the intention of offering this service as a (viable? or at least how viable 200m isk on a 35 USD purchase is).
People respond to positive reinforcement, free stuff is just that. They are pushing their business to where you would like to purchase through their channels and maintain operations. If there was any proof of RMTing it would likely have come up many moons ago, and beating this horse with the wrong stick still does not offer any conclusive let alone feasible shred of truth to a claim of CCP endorsing RMT

Because you seem so intent on ignoring the discussion i highlighted a bit there for you to respond to
I'm not ignoring anything.
Somer Give out isk to gain real world money. THAT IS RMT. No matter how you cover it up, not matter whether you state it is a game, or hide it behind credits. They give you isk and they receive money. This is plain to see.
If it IS allowed, which CCP seem to be saying by endorsing their service, then that allows ANY OTHER RMTer to simply start selling "credits" which they can exchange for "prizes".

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#64 - 2013-09-28 15:46:15 UTC
Cavalira wrote:
Let's imagine CCP did give Somer Blink some ships, despite knowing that they RMT. It wouldn't actually mean RMT is legal.

You could compare it to funding terrorism vs doing the terrorism.



And be called an accessory for your troubles? That's no good.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2013-09-28 15:50:22 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Matthew97 wrote:
If I understand correctly, SOMER don't actually get any of your $$$ as you buy it from one of the suppliers they have this deal with (Markee Dragon for example) and then the supplier pays the referral fee (so technically its not you its them if that makes sense?)
That's a technicality. That means any RMT would be legal as long as you run the isk through a third party. So that would mean any RMT run though paypal would be legal, since they pay paypal, then paypal takes their cash for their transaction fee and transfers you the rest.

Matthew97 wrote:
With regards to question 4, its also a grey area, wouldn't this apply to all the EOH * characters as well etc?
If they are running it as an out of game business, yes it would. If it's simply a website for an in-game business it would probably be OK.

Elizabeth Norn wrote:
They don't give you ISK, they give you Blink Credit. You can't spend Blink Credit in-game. Stop being silly.
Blink credits are the equivalent of isk, you are just forced to gamble with them. Either way ~80% of the isk you receive will go to players on prizes.
So you buy a GTC, Somer gets their cut (let's say for example they get $2). Somer then gives you 250m credit. Of that credit, they give 200m to players and take 50m back in their cut (since payout is around 80% of the blink value on a regular blink).
This means they have sold 200m isk for $2.



As much as I like paypal to use for plex purchases and sub fees etc (My bank does not do business with intl services) what I do not like, is the focus on RMT and the fact that when you use paypal, you get a receipt for a purchase.

As most mmo companies adopt a "rental" aspect to proprietary ownership of ingame assets, having a 3rd party site involved with out/in game purchases becomes a very muddy water.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#66 - 2013-09-28 15:56:58 UTC
Tippia wrote:
It's not RMT.
It's RM-for-non-game-non-ISK-tickets-to-be-part-of-a-draw-for-non-guaranteed-rewards.

No in-game items are exchanged for out-of-game services or goods.



Isn't that what whitewashing is and also money laundering?

Looks too much like how casinos work with their own brand of "chips". Since blink "credits" are not an ingame/outgame currency in regards to Eve, there should be no connection between real money and isk, but blink credits produce that connection.

There should be no way to be able to receive blink credits from real money and/or isk. There should be separate non related blink credits based on the form of currency used in which to purchase those same said credits.

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#67 - 2013-09-28 15:59:13 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:

Somer Give out isk to gain real world money. THAT IS RMT.
No, it's advertising, because you are neither giving them real-world money nor receiving any ISK from them.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#68 - 2013-09-28 16:01:51 UTC
Kalishka Askulf wrote:
Eggs Ackley wrote:
Another Space Lawyer fail thread. Grasping at straws.


Hey, I for one am glad they exist. I'm meeting mine at Space Court for not paying my Space Taxes P



I been watching the crap out of Suits recently. I can represent you.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
X ATM092
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#69 - 2013-09-28 16:15:34 UTC  |  Edited by: X ATM092
It's obviously RMT. Imagine I created a referral scheme in which every time you clicked I got $5. If I were to reward your clicking it with the option to place two bets on a coinflip where, should you guess correctly, I will give you 1b isk I would be paying 1b isk for you doing me a real life service that earned me $5. This is the same.

Hell, I should probably invest in creating that. I imagine a website that allows you to place two 500m (of out of game gambling credit) bets on the outcome of a coinflip in order to win 1b (in game isk) can't be that hard to create.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#70 - 2013-09-28 16:49:23 UTC
Tiffany Kautsuo wrote:
The basis of your argument of it being RMT is that you can never lose, it is easy to lose BLINK. The fact there is a mechanic that you stack the draw 100% does not mean it is RMT.

Further more, OP's highly misguided statment of CCP "Officially allows" RMT is therefore even more baseless.

Caliph, regardless of what you think or not, unless you have solid proof of Markee and SOMER in cahoots that baseless defamation is going to get you nowhere.

Exaggerations of facts doesn't help your argument either, In this case with somer you can have at best a 15/16 chance of winning without reaching that magical 100% "RMT threshold" you go on about.

Your argument of cash in isk out makes sense if they were directly selling isk as a product.

Again i shall say that you purchase a product off markee, and he gives you that product.
Following a referral from SOMER gets you their credit, nowhere here is there any semblance of RMT.
Your argument of getting isk for cash (RMT) comes from the fact that SOMER has payouts, and it is possible to buy all tickets to a lottery.

Hypothetically speaking IF this were RMT and under best circumstances of getting the 250M bonus during an event. you purchase every ticket to a raven blink, it costs you 248m of your credit to stack it.
upon winning you receive a raven, or 197m isk.

Is what you are suggesting that you have bought 200m isk off SOMER for however much cut they get?
If so then a simple rule to stop complete buyouts would negate any argumentative base you hold on that it is impossible to lose.

Spin yourself a bug report and report it to them and hope you get a cookie.

But accusing them of RMT because of a common marketing strategy is kinda low don't you think?

Also i just realised how OT this thread has become.

TLDR: CCP STILL doesn't support RMT


So you're saying you know Somer does not get a referral bonus in cash for helping his "friend"?

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#71 - 2013-09-28 17:01:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Murk Paradox wrote:
So you're saying you know Somer does not get a referral bonus in cash for helping his "friend"?
He's saying that Somer getting money from Markee for sending customers their way is not the same thing as you giving Somer money in return for ISK.

If you want to call that RMT, then it applies equally to Chribba, EN24, EVEUni, Battleclinic, EVE Radio, and any fansite using google or amazon or whathaveyou — after all, they all get paid referral cash for various game-related services.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#72 - 2013-09-28 17:43:32 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
So you're saying you know Somer does not get a referral bonus in cash for helping his "friend"?
He's saying that Somer getting money from Markee for sending customers their way is not the same thing as you giving Somer money in return for ISK.

If you want to call that RMT, then it applies equally to Chribba, EN24, EVEUni, Battleclinic, EVE Radio, and any fansite using google or amazon or whathaveyou — after all, they all get paid referral cash for various game-related services.



And if they had out of game services for giving you ingame items for doing so, it would be the same.

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#73 - 2013-09-28 17:45:35 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
And if they had out of game services for giving you ingame items for doing so, it would be the same.

…except that Somer doesn't give anyone in-game items for using their affiliate links.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#74 - 2013-09-28 17:47:54 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
And if they had out of game services for giving you ingame items for doing so, it would be the same.

…except that Somer doesn't give anyone in-game items for using their affiliate links.



Yes they do.

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#75 - 2013-09-28 17:49:09 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Yes they do.
What items are those?
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#76 - 2013-09-28 17:53:24 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Yes they do.
What items are those?



All of the items that you can spend blink credits on. Or rather, the lotteries you can buy entries into with.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#77 - 2013-09-28 17:54:44 UTC
Can you buy blink credits with isk?

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#78 - 2013-09-28 17:55:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Murk Paradox wrote:
All of the items that you can spend blink credits on.
No, you don't get those for using their affiliate links (also, unless I'm missing something, none of them are in-game items).
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#79 - 2013-09-28 17:58:35 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
All of the items that you can spend blink credits on.
No, you don't get those for using their affiliate links (also, unless I'm missing something, none of them are in-game items).



Then what do you get for using their affiliate links?

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#80 - 2013-09-28 17:59:44 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Then what do you get for using their affiliate links?

“Blink's GTC bonus gives you 250M Blink Credit for each 60-Day GTC you purchase, and 125M Blink Credit for each 30-Day GTC you purchase. For every four 60-Day GTC (or eight 30-Day GTC) you purchase in the same transaction, you'll receive an additional bonus 250M.”