Intergalactic Summit

Some five years ago, as everyone knows, a fleet of ships, some from the Thukker Tribe, others purporting to be "Minmatar Elders", emerged from the Great Wildlands, attacked CONCORD stations, and launched a failed raid on the Empire, where they committed many atrocities, including the bombardment of civilian populations, and mass executions of civilians (massacring many slave civilians after the Imperial Navy destroyed their extraction ships).

Obviously, this surprise attack breaches many aspects of what is normally considered "Interstellar Law". Breaking peace treaties and all that. Many of which were signed by the great Emperor Heideran VII, may God rest his weary soul.

Now, at the time, the Minmatar leader, Malaetu Shakor, said that these ships and ground forces, were "Not Republic", and thus, no responsibility for their actions should fall upon the Republic. A statement that many Republic capsuleers agreed with.

Then, Shakor, in his new Republic, decided to incorporate the Thukker Tribe. And in so doing, he accepts responsibility for their actions, past and present. Which includes the Elder/Thukker incursion.

Now, Maleatu Shakor, claims that international law is important, given his past statements such as:
“We realize they’re in a crisis, but that does not give them the right to step on international law any way they see fit,” stated Republic Parliament Head Malaetu Shakor

And yet, he has now incorporated the Elder/Thukker forces into the Republic, who have clearly broken the interstellar laws and treaties, such as those relating to use of orbital weapons on foreign civilians and mass executions of foreign civilians.

The great Emperor Heideran VII, God rest his soul, at the time of the Minmatar Rebellion, did not push for the Imperial Navy to retake all the rebel worlds, and crush the rebel forces, because the Emperor in his mercy, realised the cost to the civilian populations would be very, very bloody.

It would not seem that Maleatu Shakor has any similar quality, instead choosing to continue the war, with its ongoing cost to the civilian populations.

So, what of the possibility of a peace treaty ?

Well, Malaetu Shakor, with his endorsement of the treaty-breaking Elder/Thukkers, and his claims of the importance of international law, and his orders to the Republic Fleet at Colelie, has demonstrated that any peace treaty with him is simply a delaying action, to allow a surprise attack at some point in the future. Demonstrating that any peace treaty with the Shakor Republic would not be worth the gold tablet it was inscribed upon.

So, as long as Maleatu Shakor lives, and is in power, there can be no peace treaty with the Shakor Republic. But Maleatu Shakor is a capsuleer, so he is pseudo-immortal. Which is somewhat of an impasse.

Which means, given the track record of surprise attacks on civilians, including civilians of civilisations allied to the Shakor Republic, then the only solution would be to reduce the Shakor Republic to a non-spaceflight civilisation, and police that situation for what might as well be eternity. This is hardly a good situation.

Without Maleatu Shakor in power, and a Minmatar Republic that could be trusted to adhere to treaties, then, as the actions of the great Emperor Heideran VII, God rest his soul, show, peace between the Republic and Empire would be possible, despite the Republic being full of godless heathens and all that, which some people in the Empire object to, Hardline Reclaimers and so on.

And would such a thing be possible ? Or shall we put on the armour of eternal war, until the End Times themselves ?

This right here, is why there will never be peace.

I don't know if it's a cultural thing, but the vast majority of Amarrians refuse to acknowledge that they did something wrong. They take the cowardly apologist approach instead.

If your beloved Emperor gave a rats ass about civilian casualties, he wouldn't have slaughtered and enslaved them by the millions. Just admit you ****** up and that you will never do what you did again and most people will forgive you. This apologist attitude almost makes the Elder attacks justifiable.

There are two kinds of Amarrians, the ones like Mr.Barraca who want their Empire to progress to a more peaceful and tolerant society, and jerks like the OP who say things along the lines of "you should be thankful that we didn't wipe all of you out; just enslaved you!"

Midular's death was a great loss to the cause of peace between the Minmatar tribal state and the Empire. Shakor's control of the tribal state is an absolute disaster. The man, as Katy Moore has said, does not appear to respect peace treaties, attacks his own allies and believes that he has the right to do anything to anyone and commit any crime.

I am hopeful that he won't be in charge of the tribal state forever. If someone like Midular can come to govern the minmatar once, then someone like her, a moderate and a voice of peace, can come to rule them again. But it'll probably take a bloody civil war to dislodge Shakor and his supporters. I'm also concerned that they would strike out against their 'enemies' - such as the Mandate and the Empire - if they feel their powerbase is being threatened.

There is a record of corrupt governments starting wars to distract people from problems at home.

While we pray for peace, we have to prepare for war.

It was indeed Emperor Heideran VII who wrote Pax Amarria. He was a great man who also won the Gallente-sponsored Aidonis award for his efforts in making the cluster a more peaceful place.

What are you on about with this delusional rant ?

The Emperor Heideran VII, was the Emperor at the time of the Rebellion. After securing the Amarr home systems, some belligerent Holders wanted the Emperor to send the Imperial Fleet in to destroy the Minmatar home worlds. The Emperor declined, because of the cost to civilians that such actions would result in.
This is historical fact.

I have no idea what inaccurate Gallentean history you have read that states Heideran VII slaughtered and enslaved millions.

I also have no idea how you interpret anything in my original statements, to mean "you should be thankful" and all the rest of your drivel.

Your move, Gallentean.

He is quite capable of blaming whoever he wants, and he is exercising that capability.

No single nation is free of guilt. None are innocent. There is however, one in particular that matches the Amarr Empire's level of self-justification... The Gallente Federation. For all your aggrandizing histrionics, your cultural imperialism is perhaps far more sinister than the Empire you so desperately attack in this thread.

At least the Amarr are honest about their intentions. The Federation can't even admit they want to assimilate or eliminate every other culture in New Eden and rule it under the ham-fisted ineptitude of democracy.

Ignore my rant. I need more tea, and a break.

Is there something wrong with cultural "warfare"? Is it inherently evil or unjust to try and spread your ideals and culture through peaceful means? We've never forced any members of the Gallente Federation to join. We presented them with our society and allowed them to join if they found it suitable to them. You could argue that the Federation has forced people to stay, though those events are a bit vague in regards to how things like that got started.

Keep in mind that when the first Gallentean set foot on Caldari Prime, she did so with an extended hand, not with a gun. We've never used force to acquire member states of the Federation.

Even still, we don't want to eradicate cultures, merely let them join ours for mutual benefit.

I think you mistook the statement. He's as capable of blaming us for this battle as he's capable of blaming us for supernovae explosions. It went without saying that this time it wasn't necessarily logical to blame us.



I think this is something of a cultural thing as well, Fred. Even we Amarr know we are trying to spread a message that is ours across the stars. We are aware, and make no contention, that such is the case. Gallenteans have a tendency to think that democracy is inherent and that removing a society's laws or upholding theirs even in opposition to the majority population isn't the same as our Amarrian message. I'm not sure why that is the case, democracy is only one form of governance in the cluster and is almost entirely unknown in nature. However, it is Gallentean policy that a shift towards democratization is not a cultural change or an usurpation of authority, but a cultural 'correction' that only destroys the bit of a culture that your government at the time doesn't like.

I think that's why you immediately went back to slavery when we were talking about current events. In a way, it makes the universe a much simpler place when you can call Amarrians nigh-universally aggressive even though the current wreck of the universe was not caused by our aggression. It more closely fits your worldview of who and what we are. Not one that Amarr society had much pleasure in changing; cultural accusations meant that a lot of our people began to see the universe as inherently hostile. However, it isn't necessarily your fault. You've been taught to despise and distrust us without asking whether our system even has superior elements. In the dichotomy of the world, the parts of our society you agree with are always the good parts, the parts you don't agree with are bad. This seems to be irregardless of whether those elements work for their intended purposes or not.

As capsuleers, we have a unique opportunity to see the entirety of the cosmos and explore and appreciate different cultures. It is important to not always view them through a lens of stereotypical rhetoric, as I've found. You can't minister appreciably to a people if you don't understand where they are coming from. In this instance, were I you, I would evaluate Amarrian society a bit more objectively. The idea that we want to uphold the Emperor's Pax Amarria even in the face of invasion isn't just moderate as a viewpoint in Amarr, but would probably be moderate in the entirety of the cluster.

We just aren't always who you think we are.

Democracy is the only thing we force a society to embrace when they wish to become a member of the Federation. Unless the basic tenants of Democracy are against every belief of the culture, it's usually not a destructive process. If anything, it leads to further development and reform of a society's cultural practices. The Jin-Mei's caste system proved to be quite compatible with Democracy, with a few slight changes. Even today, major Jin-Mei planets still use their caste system while remaining loyal members of our Democracy. On newly colonized planets of mostly Matari, Tribal laws and customs are worked in while remaining compatable with Democracy. It's very rare that a member state has to completely change their ways in order to fit into the Federation, I don't think it's ever happened to be honest.

I will agree that I simplified the matter, albeit unintentionally, but I apologize regardless. To keep things contemporary, how about Jamyl's promise of a "new" reclaiming? She hasn't acted on this promise, and hasn't shown signs of it, but a lot of holders and people in the Amarr Empire are seriously expecting it and willing to get to work.

Regardless, I am willing to be open minded and accepting, and I believe that most of the time I am though it may not always look like it. I am just really bothered when a "moderate" view is nothing more than apologist nonsense, and even more bothered with how easily one can get away with it. Imagine if I made a thread claiming that say, the Caldari forced Admiral Noir to make his suicide attack on the Malkalen station. There would be an angry mob outside my captain's quarters in minutes.

I truly don't believe that all Amarrians are "Grrrr lets go fetch some slaves and feed children to hounds!" I think the Amarr people have a beautiful culture and are honestly good at heart, but I do admittedly get riled up when a "moderate" view is nothing more than "lets blame everyone but ourselves". All I want is to see some responsibility being taken, is that too much to ask?