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how about we make it an act of aggression to actively scan a ship?

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HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#21 - 2013-09-28 11:47:58 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
you guys have it set so that any punk can walk around looking in peoples cars and telling their buddies whats in it so it can be burglarized.

Good god, is this Florida now?

Since when can you shoot people for looking at things?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#22 - 2013-09-28 11:49:58 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
If we're using analogies, scanning is 'more than looking inside a car window'; it's akin to also capturing the license plate and VIN numbers. So in that sense, I think the intent is pretty clear. It means that if you scan - you takes your chances. Twisted


not really. u dnt take the reg of a ship by scanning it. u look at what its carrying. when i look in a tescos van i can see its carrying food and household goods. it is also not an offense to look at it.

however, if someone wants to protect the identity of what they are carrying, they can through the use of containers. Kinda like what happens with valuable or secret items in RL.

the only reason ur vulnerable to scanning is because ur lazy and/or stupid. u deserve to get ganked if u think about it.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2013-09-28 13:12:32 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
people should get suspect timers and be able to be shot for scanning someone. it is an act of aggression.


You OBVIOUSLY don't do any form of PvP or meaningful fleet combat (or even significant PvE, like incursions). Ship scanners are essential to ensure that a fleet doesn't have the wrong modules fit.

Maybe if you were less shortsighted, you wouldn't undock with a cargo full of expensive stuff and then blame a game mechanic when you got popped.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#24 - 2013-09-28 13:23:44 UTC
Humang wrote:
Arya Regnar wrote:
Since you guys have the tendency to apply real life morals to EVE lets compare it this way.
It's criminal to steal from a car but looking through the windows in a parking lot only gives you stare downs, name calling and the others will frown upon you. Doesn't get you into jail does it?


Perfect analogy, and I agree with it.
Plus there are ways to avoid ship scanners: Put the valuable items in cargo containers in your cargo-hold, If you are ship-scanned by someone, change your route to avoid the next system or two. And don't afk auto-pilot.

The less effort something requires, the less secure it becomes, as it should be.

I don't think this is a good example. Looking into car windows would similar to checking out the guns someone has equipped based on the wep models. Cargo scanning might be compared to viewing the content of the car's trunk where there is some expectation of privacy.
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2013-09-28 13:45:03 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
people should get suspect timers and be able to be shot for scanning someone. it is an act of aggression.

you guys have it set so that any punk can walk around looking in peoples cars and telling their buddies whats in it so it can be burglarized.
when in actuality, they would be accessories to the fact, they would be arrested and charged with the crime too.
so why shouldnt people who sit in dodixie or jita or any of the trade routes using an out of corp alt and talking on ts to scan passers-bye and report on which ship to hit be charged with the crime too?

they should be able to be shot by anyone.

CCP: you want ships to explode? you want people to be able to do as they please? then let us defend ourselves. give us the tools to blast those people (all participants) in the act.

i got kill rights activated on me the other day in dodixie. i was there to sell a ship. it had nothing on it except rigs.
they bumped me off station and i lost a cnr.

MY BAD...that was on me. it was a good clean kill.

fast forward to today. my alt undocked from jita with a hauler. it was scanned by a criminal i can do nothing too and popped by someone else.
this is an exploit.

there is no penalty for doing this in eve, when there would be irl. i dont mind the high sec ganking, folks do it irl. but there is a penalty for ALL involved. not just gang members, but scouts, informants...everyone.

had there been a method where the scanning ship would have agressed, then i could have shot him. we could start to note who are known scanning ships and prelock them. or at least we would know and we could hunt them down.

i have made this suggestion several times. this isnt a ***** session.


You haven't gone far enough. people are looking at your ship all the time thinking about making it explode. In a spaceship shooting game this is wrong and everyone on your overview should get suspect status.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#26 - 2013-09-28 13:46:54 UTC
I have a fix for this problem.

Everyone in highsec gets suspect status.

Now you can kill everyone that looks at you in a weird way.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
HardRockLife
Diabolically Sexy Eureka-Secret Science R Us
#27 - 2013-09-28 14:41:42 UTC
Why not just disable the copy paste function and have the scan window close when some one is off grid?
Now if they want to gank you they have to market scour from either a screen shot or hope they got it right.
Or for real fun have it disable the counter and either show every individual item (yes please I want to hear the best computer is given to the guy doing the least Twisted) or just give a short list and you dont know how much is present.

Ganking should not be disallowed the issue is that the ganker cant be stopped until its to late to save the freighter.
Therefore we are stuck in this conundrum of a real time game without being able to defend yourself from a very obvious action.
Which kind of breaks the whole thing.
SOL Ranger
Imperial Armed Forces
#28 - 2013-09-28 14:55:10 UTC  |  Edited by: SOL Ranger
chaosgrimm wrote:

I don't think this is a good example. Looking into car windows would similar to checking out the guns someone has equipped based on the wep models. Cargo scanning might be compared to viewing the content of the car's trunk where there is some expectation of privacy.


I agree, you can ogle the ships as much as you want visually, internally scanning ships is a hostile act no doubt, if detected; What I'm insinuating is maybe there should exist a risk of being exposed and additionally a spy craft which specifically do scans of ships undetected, this has no doubt been voiced before but here goes.

Ship and scanner properties:
  • High SP requirements.
  • Scanner success/partial success and failure all dependant on sensor strength formulas in a linear manner.
  • Scanner full success provides full data on target.(usually only on smaller craft)
  • Scanner partial success provides fragmented/inaccurate data, which can be improved with subsequent scans.
  • Scanner subsequent scans increase risk of failure/detection, preferably not chance based but RNG could be used.
  • Failure/detection exposes the craft and it is then considered a thief and can be freely engaged.

    • The ship:

    Beholder
    Role: Covert Ops Spy Frigate

    Role Bonus:
    +100% to Cargo Scanner and Ship Scanner effectiveness.

    Minmatar Frigate Skill Bonus:
    5% bonus to Small Projectile Turret Damage per level
    10% bonus to Small Projectile Turret Optimal Range per level

    Covert Ops Skill Bonus:
    20% reduced CPU need for Cloaking Devices per level
    10% increase to scan strength of probes per level
    10% reduction to survey probe flight time per level

    Notes:
    Can fit covert ops cloaks and covert cynosural field generators. Cloak reactivation delay reduced to 5 seconds.
    Can use Cargo Scanner and Ship Scanner when cloaked.


    Both Ship Scanner and Cargo Scanner would need to be overhauled so they provide partial/inaccurate data only per cycle highly dependant on sensor strength, there are many ways to do this, one way would be to just show some of cargo/statistics per cycle, another would be to scramble the statistics values a bit and further scans would reduce the error to a median.


    Results:

  • Scanners no longer in most cases give out full/accurate data immediately.
  • Dedicated high SP characters can become very effective spies.
  • Prolonged/careless scans on protected vessels will get you blown up.

    • Common ships would be able to get rudimentary data without getting detected, however further prying will expose them, a spy craft would be rarely detected and if it was it would be because it insisted on a prolonged scan on a high sensor strength ship.

    The Vargur requires launcher hardpoints, following tempest tradition.
    Humang
    Sudden Buggery
    Sending Thots And Players
    #29 - 2013-09-28 15:05:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Humang
    chaosgrimm wrote:
    I don't think this is a good example. Looking into car windows would similar to checking out the guns someone has equipped based on the wep models. Cargo scanning might be compared to viewing the content of the car's trunk where there is some expectation of privacy.


    It could be bent ether way, I could argue that to view the boot, you would have to force your way in, while looking into the car for valuables is simply passive observation, but I understand what you are getting at, so its a mute point.

    I hate to say it, but I could suggest that if a ship is cargo-scanned by person A, and then fleet B pop him down the chain, then give person A a suspect timer, for participating; but that could be abused to an extent also.

    AFK cloaking thread Summary - Provided by Paikis Good Post Etiquette - Provided by CCP Grayscale
    Iome Ambraelle
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #30 - 2013-09-28 17:35:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Iome Ambraelle
    The car analogy isn't quite applicable here. It's not that the lookout is glancing through the car windows to see what's sitting in plain view. In the case of cargo scanners, it more akin to popping open the trunk and seeing what's inside it. For ship scanners it would be like popping open the hood to see what kind of engine and accessories you have installed. It's pretty different really.

    Forum refresh for the win. Several people beat me to it. ^^^

    Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things.
    Zyella Stormborn
    Green Seekers
    #31 - 2013-09-28 19:07:00 UTC
    Roime wrote:
    Arya Regnar wrote:
    Good lord these carebears really want to turn eve online into hello kitty online with friendship and magic.

    How about we as well make mining, mission running and incursions into a criminal offense to reintroduce risk to this game for everyone.

    Since you guys have the tendency to apply real life morals to EVE lets compare it this way.
    It's criminal to steal from a car but looking through the windows in a parking lot only gives you stare downs, name calling and the others will frown upon you. Doesn't get you into jail does it?

    No I don't think real life laws should apply to eve either way.
    If you want to punish bad intents to the point where you would make suicide ganking impossible then this is not the game for you.


    Well suggesting ship scanning to be made an aggression is not really as much carebearing as wanting to keep it safe.

    Ship scanning has only offensive purpose in the game, so yes, it should cause a suspect timer.



    This, well said. It puts risk into the action, but does not make it unusable.

    There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
    Zyella Stormborn
    Green Seekers
    #32 - 2013-09-28 19:08:30 UTC
    Gypsio III wrote:
    Mole Guy wrote:
    you guys have it set so that any punk can walk around looking in peoples cars and telling their buddies whats in it so it can be burglarized. when in actuality, they would be accessories to the fact, they would be arrested and charged with the crime too.


    Where, exactly, is looking through a car's windows a criminal offence?



    But you are not looking through the window, are you? You are looking through the trunk and the glove box. ;)

    There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
    Morrigan LeSante
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #33 - 2013-09-28 19:33:09 UTC
    Given the amount of flashy yellows I see ignored....I cant help but think....why not?


    Open up a WHOLE new world of baiting.
    Shang Ghjuvan
    Shang Ghjuvan Corporation
    #34 - 2013-09-28 21:14:32 UTC
    Daichi Yamato wrote:
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    If we're using analogies, scanning is 'more than looking inside a car window'; it's akin to also capturing the license plate and VIN numbers. So in that sense, I think the intent is pretty clear. It means that if you scan - you takes your chances. Twisted


    not really. u dnt take the reg of a ship by scanning it. u look at what its carrying. when i look in a tescos van i can see its carrying food and household goods. it is also not an offense to look at it.

    however, if someone wants to protect the identity of what they are carrying, they can through the use of containers. Kinda like what happens with valuable or secret items in RL.

    the only reason ur vulnerable to scanning is because ur lazy and/or stupid. u deserve to get ganked if u think about it.

    The can tricks don't work anymore
    Tanik Fera
    Imperial Shipment
    Amarr Empire
    #35 - 2013-09-28 22:19:17 UTC
    There is already something to counter this counter, Passive Targeters, so why not. lol
    Ciaphas Cyne
    Moira.
    #36 - 2013-09-28 22:36:18 UTC
    Roime wrote:


    Well suggesting ship scanning to be made an aggression is not really as much carebearing as wanting to keep it safe.

    Ship scanning has only offensive purpose in the game, so yes, it should cause a suspect timer.




    i agree. those of you throwing the "carebear" word around need to look in the mirror. you wanna scan my ship but dont want that to lead to PvP...sounds like your the carebear.... not the hauler. wanna take a peak inside? face the consequences. here we have a suggestion thats totally rational, fits the lore of eve, and would only increase PvP chances. Its a win-win for everyone involved EXCEPT the carebear scout whos too afraid to get his guns warm but still wants the loot. its pathetic really.

    i love high sec ganks i wish they happened 100x more than they do and im a regular hauler. Seeing that gate camp is the only fun we haulers get to have! Most people haul with alts. I haul in FW cause im cool like that and love a challenge. I also love grabbing my catalyst and hanging out in jita waiting for that poor WT in a tayra. Im coming at this from both angles...

    im sick and tired of all this personal agenda BS on these forums as much as the next guy. its nothing but me me me me me. you even have chuckle heads going around telling CCP how many slots an unreleased ship "needs". seriously give it a rest! but this idea isnt part of that. its just a plain old good idea!

    "buff only the stuff I fly and nerf everything else"

    • you
    chaosgrimm
    Synth Tech
    #37 - 2013-09-28 22:52:31 UTC
    Humang wrote:
    chaosgrimm wrote:
    I don't think this is a good example. Looking into car windows would similar to checking out the guns someone has equipped based on the wep models. Cargo scanning might be compared to viewing the content of the car's trunk where there is some expectation of privacy.


    It could be bent ether way, I could argue that to view the boot, you would have to force your way in, while looking into the car for valuables is simply passive observation, but I understand what you are getting at, so its a mute point.

    I hate to say it, but I could suggest that if a ship is cargo-scanned by person A, and then fleet B pop him down the chain, then give person A a suspect timer, for participating; but that could be abused to an extent also.


    I can really only speak in terms of US law, but even w/o breaking and entering i believe it would still be illegal because of the "expectation of privacy". The closest thing I have seen to support this is that it is considered an illegal search for the police to randomly use thermal vision on your home (kyllo v US).
    Kaarous Aldurald
    Black Hydra Consortium.
    #38 - 2013-09-28 23:06:18 UTC
    OP undocked carrying more in a hauler than is wise. Gets blown up, blames the scanner.

    This is new and original.

    "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

    One of ours, ten of theirs.

    Best Meltdown Ever.
    Ciaphas Cyne
    Moira.
    #39 - 2013-09-28 23:10:53 UTC
    Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
    OP undocked carrying more in a hauler than is wise. Gets blown up, blames the scanner.

    This is new and original.


    ^^carebear disguised as pvper....how original... oh wait thats like half of nullsec, my bad carebear

    "buff only the stuff I fly and nerf everything else"

    • you
    Drake Doe
    88Th Tax Haven
    #40 - 2013-09-29 00:32:51 UTC
    I could only support this if there was some sort of "privacy invasion" timer where the scanned ship could engage initiate a limited engagment timer with the scanning ship, but the scanning ship would be unable to shoot until th scanned ship does. Otherwise, I can't support this since there is no way to prove that the scanning party is collaborating with gankers, and it can be done from a long distance, suggesting that in a real world analogy, the person scoping out the target would be doing so far out of the sight of the target.

    "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--