These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Question for CCP - Is this RMT officially allowed?

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#41 - 2013-09-28 00:51:53 UTC
You guys don't have a grasp about how things work.

CCP are not against RMT at all.

They are against RMT that steals from their IP and servers (i.e. by overloading their CPUs) to bring money to 3rd parties.

They aren't against RMT where the beneficiary is CCP themselves.

PLEX is RMT and they are quite fine with it, they actually implement it.
The barbies dressing shop is RMT and they are fine with it.

The Somer => GTC => CCP "circle" is also fine with them because in the end CCP gets the huge majority of RL money income out of it. Yes, some trickles to Somer but that's cost of business, it's not "stolen" by unknowns.

Other companies - see Entropia but also several famous others - make these kinds of deals much more "in the open" and maybe CCP should become more transparent and structure 3rd party business deals instead of resorting to this indirect kind of shared profits. But hey, they are in charge here and we signup to whatever fanciful EULA they propose.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Tiffany Kautsuo
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#42 - 2013-09-28 05:26:09 UTC
The fallacies with this argument is that you receive ISK, the currency in exchange for real money via a convoluted route.
SOMER does never give you any in game currency and it cannot be argued they do. When you purchase a GTC you receiver the GTC and a credit to your account.
This credit holds no monetary value in the economy and can only be used to purchase "blinks". SOMER has for the sake of simplicity used a denomination of tokens that holds the same tag as currency of the game. The idea here was probably to alow flexibility between the different prizes offered and the buoyant value of items relative to currency. This prevents and argument of RMT as you are never in possession of any currency, only tokens that hold the same market value as you paid.

Strawman torched.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#43 - 2013-09-28 05:46:15 UTC
Tiffany Kautsuo wrote:
The fallacies with this argument is that you receive ISK, the currency in exchange for real money via a convoluted route.
SOMER does never give you any in game currency and it cannot be argued they do. When you purchase a GTC you receiver the GTC and a credit to your account.
This credit holds no monetary value in the economy and can only be used to purchase "blinks". SOMER has for the sake of simplicity used a denomination of tokens that holds the same tag as currency of the game. The idea here was probably to alow flexibility between the different prizes offered and the buoyant value of items relative to currency. This prevents and argument of RMT as you are never in possession of any currency, only tokens that hold the same market value as you paid.

Strawman torched.


Create a blink
Buy all 8 tickets with your free blink credit
Claim winnings in ISK

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Jack Hayson
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2013-09-28 08:23:04 UTC
You use my referal link (for which I recieve real money) and I give you 'imaginary credit'.
I buy stuff from you in EvE with ISK and set up a lottery. You can buy the tickets with 'imaginary credit'.
You (or someone else who had to buy tickets with 'imaginary credit') wins lottery.
-> I just turned my ISK into real money -> RMT

Not sure what's there left to argue.


CCP obviously doesn't enforce the 'no RMT' rule here, because they don't loose money from this.
Tiffany Kautsuo
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#45 - 2013-09-28 08:39:48 UTC
Andski wrote:
Tiffany Kautsuo wrote:
The fallacies with this argument is that you receive ISK, the currency in exchange for real money via a convoluted route.
SOMER does never give you any in game currency and it cannot be argued they do. When you purchase a GTC you receiver the GTC and a credit to your account.
This credit holds no monetary value in the economy and can only be used to purchase "blinks". SOMER has for the sake of simplicity used a denomination of tokens that holds the same tag as currency of the game. The idea here was probably to alow flexibility between the different prizes offered and the buoyant value of items relative to currency. This prevents and argument of RMT as you are never in possession of any currency, only tokens that hold the same market value as you paid.

Strawman torched.


Create a blink
Buy all 8 tickets with your free blink credit
Claim winnings in ISK



The argument is RMT nothing more nothing less, you never are given isk.
Blinking all tickets still isn't giving you isk.
If you hold all tickets and win then you still haven't bought any money.
You still win a prize and can get isk but SOMER never gave you isk.
The option to "cash out" is the collection of the lottery prize you've won.
You didn't buy isk. You bought into a game and played it. You won. You get a prize for winning.

Not RMT
just people gaming a system because there are not any rules in place to prevent you buying every ticket.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#46 - 2013-09-28 09:01:11 UTC
Elizabeth Norn wrote:
They don't give you ISK, they give you Blink Credit. You can't spend Blink Credit in-game. Stop being silly.


They gave me ISK quite a few times. You stop being silly.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Jack Hayson
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2013-09-28 09:03:04 UTC
Tiffany Kautsuo wrote:

The argument is RMT nothing more nothing less, you never are given isk.
Blinking all tickets still isn't giving you isk.


Of course I am buying ISK with this:

I give a company money. The company gives part of the money to somer who gives me credits in return.
I use the credits to buy all tickets and win the prize and then sell the prize on the market.
-> I just bought ISK with money.

The only downside is that I had to buy the GTC too - which is the reason why CCP is OK with this form of RMT.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#48 - 2013-09-28 09:30:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
Tiffany Kautsuo wrote:
The fallacies with this argument is that you receive ISK, the currency in exchange for real money via a convoluted route.
SOMER does never give you any in game currency and it cannot be argued they do. When you purchase a GTC you receiver the GTC and a credit to your account.
This credit holds no monetary value in the economy and can only be used to purchase "blinks". SOMER has for the sake of simplicity used a denomination of tokens that holds the same tag as currency of the game. The idea here was probably to alow flexibility between the different prizes offered and the buoyant value of items relative to currency. This prevents and argument of RMT as you are never in possession of any currency, only tokens that hold the same market value as you paid.

Strawman torched.


So your argument is that a shell corporation in EVE setup by markee dragon to rmt ISK isn't rmt because its hidden and goes by the name SomerBlink? For someone with zero likes, having never interacted with the community at all save for a handful of posts since 2012 you sure seem to have a vested interest.

My question is why are you hiding on that character? I'm here on my one and only character defending the sanctity of our sandbox along with many others. Is it because your main is linked to SomerBlink?
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#49 - 2013-09-28 09:36:59 UTC
Tiffany Kautsuo wrote:
The argument is RMT nothing more nothing less, you never are given isk.
Blinking all tickets still isn't giving you isk.
If you hold all tickets and win then you still haven't bought any money.
You still win a prize and can get isk but SOMER never gave you isk.
The option to "cash out" is the collection of the lottery prize you've won.
You didn't buy isk. You bought into a game and played it. You won. You get a prize for winning.

Not RMT
just people gaming a system because there are not any rules in place to prevent you buying every ticket.


so if I buy all of the tickets in a blink with credits received from purchasing a GTC through them and claim the prize in ISK, despite my wallet flashing, I am not given ISK by Somer?

interesting, tell us more

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
flakeys
Doomheim
#50 - 2013-09-28 09:44:39 UTC
Eggs Ackley wrote:
Another Space Lawyer fail thread. Grasping at straws.



So you're saying we should not thrive for equality amongst all eve players when it comes to the eula ?

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#51 - 2013-09-28 09:56:54 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
You guys don't have a grasp about how things work.

CCP are not against RMT at all.

They are against RMT that steals from their IP and servers (i.e. by overloading their CPUs) to bring money to 3rd parties.

They aren't against RMT where the beneficiary is CCP themselves.

PLEX is RMT and they are quite fine with it, they actually implement it.
The barbies dressing shop is RMT and they are fine with it.

The Somer => GTC => CCP "circle" is also fine with them because in the end CCP gets the huge majority of RL money income out of it. Yes, some trickles to Somer but that's cost of business, it's not "stolen" by unknowns.

Other companies - see Entropia but also several famous others - make these kinds of deals much more "in the open" and maybe CCP should become more transparent and structure 3rd party business deals instead of resorting to this indirect kind of shared profits. But hey, they are in charge here and we signup to whatever fanciful EULA they propose.
If thats the case, that's fine. That means everyone will be able to do this to make a load of cash from their isk by offering isk incentives to use their referral right?
So CCP just need to clarify this themselves that its not against the EULA, and we can all start churning out the cash,

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#52 - 2013-09-28 09:58:43 UTC
Tiffany Kautsuo wrote:
The fallacies with this argument is that you receive ISK, the currency in exchange for real money via a convoluted route.
SOMER does never give you any in game currency and it cannot be argued they do. When you purchase a GTC you receiver the GTC and a credit to your account.
This credit holds no monetary value in the economy and can only be used to purchase "blinks". SOMER has for the sake of simplicity used a denomination of tokens that holds the same tag as currency of the game. The idea here was probably to alow flexibility between the different prizes offered and the buoyant value of items relative to currency. This prevents and argument of RMT as you are never in possession of any currency, only tokens that hold the same market value as you paid.

Strawman torched.
Well then why doesn't a regular RMT site simply sell tokens, then you can exchange those tokens for "prizes" which are in-game items.
By your explanation, that would be fully legal as you never buy isk for cash, you only buy tokens for that site,

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Tiffany Kautsuo
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-09-28 10:09:33 UTC
Sigh.
Because you are purchasing into this agreement not with any money, you are buying a GTC
Right?
You get a GTC whoopedey door.
But because you bought the GTC through an affiliate you are eligible for an amount of tokens from a site.
People are getting a muddled idea because although there is real money exchanging hands.
You buy from markee and get a GTC that us one transaction.
If you came to markee from SOMER then you can get a bonus with them.
You did not pay SOMER you are not buying anything at all through SOMER.
SOMER is giving you a free bonus for "using his friend"
ergo no RMT. Your only interaction with SOMER over this entire process is getting free tokens.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#54 - 2013-09-28 10:15:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
Prove Somer isn't Markee. Because I think SomerBlink is directly affiliated with and likely a contractor/employee/owner of Markee.

And I think it's set up this way just to obfuscate the issue with a bunch of mumbo jumbo.

The bottom line is that you insert cash in one end and walk away with Isk at the other. The number of middle men is irrelevant and if it isn't I can have a super sweet RMT group setup in 24 hours tops. As long as you buy GTC from me which I buy from CCP i'll have my friend give you credits to a no lose game that gives ISK. Everybody's a winner!

That's right folks Caliphs Casino is on the horizon. Buy one 30 dollar game card from me and get free credits to a no loss game and be awarded a billion Isk per play!

Or maybe ill have to have an arbitrary 1% loss rate for the public to show CCP its a "game of chance". I don't mind, if that's what it takes.
Red Templar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#55 - 2013-09-28 10:32:11 UTC
Tiffany Kautsuo wrote:
Sigh.
Because you are purchasing into this agreement not with any money, you are buying a GTC
Right?
You get a GTC whoopedey door.
But because you bought the GTC through an affiliate you are eligible for an amount of tokens from a site.
People are getting a muddled idea because although there is real money exchanging hands.
You buy from markee and get a GTC that us one transaction.
If you came to markee from SOMER then you can get a bonus with them.
You did not pay SOMER you are not buying anything at all through SOMER.
SOMER is giving you a free bonus for "using his friend"
ergo no RMT. Your only interaction with SOMER over this entire process is getting free tokens.

Apparently that can be called a loophole.

Yes technically they dont give you isk directly. They give you credits which you can turn to isk.

So clarification is needed if such a scheme is allowed. If it is, it opens door to all kinds of nasty things.

You can open 10 "friends" websites, and give out Not-Isk-But-Can-Be-Turned-To-Isk-Credits for buying items or services from them for real money.
After all its just "referrals" and you are not paying ISK to anyone, so it should be alright?

[b]For Love. For Peace. For Honor.

For None of the Above.

For Pony![/b]
Tiffany Kautsuo
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#56 - 2013-09-28 11:12:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiffany Kautsuo
The basis of your argument of it being RMT is that you can never lose, it is easy to lose BLINK. The fact there is a mechanic that you stack the draw 100% does not mean it is RMT.

Further more, OP's highly misguided statment of CCP "Officially allows" RMT is therefore even more baseless.

Caliph, regardless of what you think or not, unless you have solid proof of Markee and SOMER in cahoots that baseless defamation is going to get you nowhere.

Exaggerations of facts doesn't help your argument either, In this case with somer you can have at best a 15/16 chance of winning without reaching that magical 100% "RMT threshold" you go on about.

Your argument of cash in isk out makes sense if they were directly selling isk as a product.

Again i shall say that you purchase a product off markee, and he gives you that product.
Following a referral from SOMER gets you their credit, nowhere here is there any semblance of RMT.
Your argument of getting isk for cash (RMT) comes from the fact that SOMER has payouts, and it is possible to buy all tickets to a lottery.

Hypothetically speaking IF this were RMT and under best circumstances of getting the 250M bonus during an event. you purchase every ticket to a raven blink, it costs you 248m of your credit to stack it.
upon winning you receive a raven, or 197m isk.

Is what you are suggesting that you have bought 200m isk off SOMER for however much cut they get?
If so then a simple rule to stop complete buyouts would negate any argumentative base you hold on that it is impossible to lose.

Spin yourself a bug report and report it to them and hope you get a cookie.

But accusing them of RMT because of a common marketing strategy is kinda low don't you think?

Also i just realised how OT this thread has become.

TLDR: CCP STILL doesn't support RMT
Red Templar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#57 - 2013-09-28 11:37:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Red Templar
So basically you are saying that if i dont sell ISK directly, but cover them with some scheme, its totally ok?

I can make my own web casino, where everybody wins, if they buy something from affiliated site and it will not be counted as RMT.

Im pretty sure the name of the topic speaks for itself, its a question for CCP, if such a methodology allowed to receive real money in exchange for isk (even if not directly but through some links or cycles of gambling).

Somer is just an example, maybe not perfect, but it illustrates somewhat how it can be viewed as RMT, from certain angle, and how similar approach can be used to create real RMT shop under the cover of "not selling isk directly".

[b]For Love. For Peace. For Honor.

For None of the Above.

For Pony![/b]
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#58 - 2013-09-28 11:37:29 UTC
Tiffany Kautsuo wrote:
The basis of your argument of it being RMT is that you can never lose, it is easy to lose BLINK. The fact there is a mechanic that you stack the draw 100% does not mean it is RMT.

Further more, OP's highly misguided statment of CCP "Officially allows" RMT is therefore even more baseless.

Caliph, regardless of what you think or not, unless you have solid proof of Markee and SOMER in cahoots that baseless defamation is going to get you nowhere.

Exaggerations of facts doesn't help your argument either, In this case with somer you can have at best a 15/16 chance of winning without reaching that magical 100% "RMT threshold" you go on about.

Your argument of cash in isk out makes sense if they were directly selling isk as a product.

Again i shall say that you purchase a product off markee, and he gives you that product.
Following a referral from SOMER gets you their credit, nowhere here is there any semblance of RMT.
Your argument of getting isk for cash (RMT) comes from the fact that SOMER has payouts, and it is possible to buy all tickets to a lottery.

Hypothetically speaking IF this were RMT and under best circumstances of getting the 250M bonus during an event. you purchase every ticket to a raven blink, it costs you 248m of your credit to stack it.
upon winning you receive a raven, or 197m isk.

Is what you are suggesting that you have bought 200m isk off SOMER for however much cut they get?
If so then a simple rule to stop complete buyouts would negate any argumentative base you hold on that it is impossible to lose.

Spin yourself a bug report and report it to them and hope you get a cookie.

But accusing them of RMT because of a common marketing strategy is kinda low don't you think?

Also i just realised how OT this thread has become.

TLDR: CCP STILL doesn't support RMT

RMT has nothing to do with the fact that you can win or lose.
At the end of the day it comes to one simple fact. Somer gives out ISK and in return gets cash. They are using their isk to make cash. That is RMT. If it's valid because it's hidden behind a "game" then anyone can make a site selling any in game item or isk for tokens in their "game".

In this case it's done through a referral, so Somer are giving you isk to buy something through them. That's no different from an RMTer getting you to buy some arbitrary product for which they get paid in exchange for isk. If it's allowed, it opens up enormous loopholes which allows RMT.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Trit
Constructive Influence
Brothers of Tangra
#59 - 2013-09-28 11:41:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Trit
Elizabeth Norn wrote:
They don't give you ISK, they give you Blink Credit. You can't spend Blink Credit in-game. Stop being silly.



Right because you cannot use blink credit to win in game items and then sell those items for isk.












Having read further it seems that the arguement is that since you did not buy isk directly it is ok, So all the people that have been banned for selling navy ravens on ebay should be given their accounts back.

Since they did not buy isk directly.

Shine on Crazy Nubbins
Tiffany Kautsuo
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#60 - 2013-09-28 12:21:53 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:

RMT has nothing to do with the fact that you can win or lose.
At the end of the day it comes to one simple fact. Somer gives out ISK and in return gets cash. They are using their isk to make cash. That is RMT. If it's valid because it's hidden behind a "game" then anyone can make a site selling any in game item or isk for tokens in their "game".

In this case it's done through a referral, so Somer are giving you isk to buy something through them. That's no different from an RMTer getting you to buy some arbitrary product for which they get paid in exchange for isk. If it's allowed, it opens up enormous loopholes which allows RMT.


It is valid because it is not hidden behind a game, its use of in game functions and real world application of marketing, strategy and basic business.

Which STILL does not mean that CCP have sanctioned RMT. Which your entire thread was originally about....

No, SOMER is not perfect. Yes there could be changes made to improve its operations. And no, it is still not an example of RMTing.

I think it is clear that the only thing you buy is the GTC, just as from any other seller. Receiving the bonus is just that, if you can make a profit from it good for you. I doubt SOMER have the intention of offering this service as a (viable? or at least how viable 200m isk on a 35 USD purchase is).
People respond to positive reinforcement, free stuff is just that. They are pushing their business to where you would like to purchase through their channels and maintain operations. If there was any proof of RMTing it would likely have come up many moons ago, and beating this horse with the wrong stick still does not offer any conclusive let alone feasible shred of truth to a claim of CCP endorsing RMT

Because you seem so intent on ignoring the discussion i highlighted a bit there for you to respond to