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Cloaky, Nullified Strategic Cruisers
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Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#41 - 2011-11-15 20:00:08 UTC
fRoDdEr's wrote:
Tippia wrote:
fRoDdEr's wrote:
I think its time that this issue gets addressed.

What issue?
Quote:
It's a scout that cannot be countered.

You counter it the same way you counter other scouts: lock it up and shoot it.


Very original idea, would you explain how I should do this?


if you've locked a cloaky warpy t3, you killed it. it isn't getting away once its tackled.
fRoDdEr's
Ostsupport
#42 - 2011-11-15 20:04:37 UTC
Ammzi wrote:
fRoDdEr's wrote:
Tippia wrote:
fRoDdEr's wrote:
I think its time that this issue gets addressed.

What issue?
Quote:
It's a scout that cannot be countered.

You counter it the same way you counter other scouts: lock it up and shoot it.


Very original idea, would you explain how I should do this?


Genius, you put out drones and cans so it can't cloak.


Unless you have some 50 friends this is very tedious. I have done this, we even locked some t3's, caught irrc like 1-2 in my entire life, others had stabs. If you put down too many drones/cans CCP will hit you with the bat.

Even with many ppl it takes abit of time and is very limited. It also only works at gates.
Handsome Hussein
#43 - 2011-11-15 20:07:25 UTC
fRoDdEr's wrote:
Unless you have some 50 friends this is very tedious. I have done this, we even locked some t3's, caught irrc like 1-2 in my entire life, others had stabs. If you put down too many drones/cans CCP will hit you with the bat.

So you're going to whine about stabs now?

Leaves only the fresh scent of pine.
fRoDdEr's
Ostsupport
#44 - 2011-11-15 20:08:53 UTC
No im commenting that the effort you need to catch a 400m ship that does nothing is too high.
Handsome Hussein
#45 - 2011-11-15 20:11:04 UTC
fRoDdEr's wrote:
No im commenting that the effort you need to catch a 400m ship that does nothing is too high.

It's doing nothing. Why do you care?

Leaves only the fresh scent of pine.
fRoDdEr's
Ostsupport
#46 - 2011-11-15 20:34:40 UTC
Handsome Hussein wrote:
fRoDdEr's wrote:
No im commenting that the effort you need to catch a 400m ship that does nothing is too high.

It's doing nothing. Why do you care?


It does nothing to not get caught. It does alot.
Drifterin Thedark
#47 - 2011-11-15 20:38:07 UTC
Handsome Hussein wrote:
It's doing nothing. Why do you care?


fRoDdEr's wrote:
It does nothing to not get caught. It does alot.


We're apparently speaking in Zen Koans now.
Handsome Hussein
#48 - 2011-11-15 20:41:30 UTC
fRoDdEr's wrote:
It does nothing to not get caught. It does alot.

That makes no sense.

If I'm "reading" your words in the manner in which you intended, there is no problem here. The pilot of that ship gimped all combat ability to make sure that it could avoid being locked down by less than four scrams (likely more, I don't know how many lows you can get on a T3) and also sacrificed other abilities to avoid non-targeted warp disruption as well as gain a cloak it can warp with.

IOW, they are playing and fitting their ship correctly to avoid you.

You are whining because you can't catch them. You either need to get better/more friends or just relax and let it go.

Leaves only the fresh scent of pine.
fRoDdEr's
Ostsupport
#49 - 2011-11-15 20:41:45 UTC  |  Edited by: fRoDdEr's
Drifterin Thedark wrote:
Handsome ******* wrote:
It's doing nothing. Why do you care?


fRoDdEr's wrote:
It does nothing to not get caught. It does alot.


We're apparently speaking in Zen Koans now.



In English:

Claoky tengus are very useful and can fulfill a large number of roles.

There is no effort in getting through camps.
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#50 - 2011-11-15 20:45:13 UTC
fRoDdEr's wrote:
Handsome ******* wrote:
fRoDdEr's wrote:
No im commenting that the effort you need to catch a 400m ship that does nothing is too high.

It's doing nothing. Why do you care?


It does nothing to not get caught. It does alot.


Sorry, but a cloaky warpy T3 with warp stabs on it is a flying eyeball with token systems.
It's going to basically be an overpriced covops frigate, and a covops cloak alone is enough to break through pretty much any gate camp if you have a brain.
Admiral Spaz
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2011-11-15 21:16:44 UTC
Ok, I'll throw my .02 isk in. And I won't hide behind an alt to do it. Because while I'm able to offer my opinion here, I also realize that one man's opinion isn't the only one in the game.

CCP has introduced an uncounterable ship that CAN hurt you, it can hurt you just by being there. As a scout, possible cyno, prober... etc.

The REASON it's uncounterable is: It cannot be locked upon entering warp (unless the pilot is a moron), not even by dual sebo Stilletto or RSB ceptors. Assuming you have veteran inty pilots that actually manage to get a decloak on it, by the time it's lockable.... it's already in warp due to it's rediculous align time. They can travel with practical impunity in 0.0... that is a fact.

The ONLY counter to a cloaky/nullified T3 is to do what CCP should NEVER require to kill a single person.... a blob. You need to litter a gate with ships / drones / cans / probes (which is considered an exploit) and hope the T3 decloaks next to something.

Given the price of a T3 cruiser... I firmly believe that they should be hard to catch while configured this way.... not impossible to catch. There needs to be a better counter. Adjustments to the agility alone would be suitable, meaning that pro ceptor pilots would be able to get a decloak and lock before the damn thing warps. Maybe not every time, but at least some time... which is a whole lot more than what we currently have.

T3 align time is also an issue related to botting. 90% of the 0.0 ratting bots use T3 cruisers due to their invulnerability to being caught by actual humans. Yes I realize that not all T3's used in 0.0 are bots.... It's easy to identify them. Even if you manage to jump in system and get a lucky scan on the bot, it's already initiated warp the moment you've entered local. The align speed of the botting T3 means you will NEVER catch him. By the time you land he's already warping off to a safe and cloaking. I can't see why an honest Eve player would defend this at all. Whether you're a high sec miner, mission runner, or ratter. Unkillable bots in these superships only ruin the economy and make your efforts worth less.

My solution is pretty simple: make interdiction nullifier subsystem give an agility penalty so these ships can be caught by skilled pilots. As far as botting is concerned.... CCP needs to address that in their own way :) I'd suggest that pilots jumping into system remain invisible to local chat until their gate cloak expires. I realize not everyone would be a fan of that though :)
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#52 - 2011-11-15 21:22:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Ptraci
fRoDdEr's wrote:


I think its time that this issue gets addressed.


Mommy there's a ship that's hard to kill make it stop. Fix it mommy FIX IT! OP needs a cup of HTFU.

Edit:
fRoDdEr's wrote:
No im commenting that the effort you need to catch a 400m ship that does nothing is too high.


It does something. For 400M it gets away from you.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#53 - 2011-11-15 21:22:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Gogela
Admiral Spaz wrote:
... You need to litter a gate with ships / drones / cans / probes (which is considered an exploit) ...


Just one small point: This is not considered to be an exploit. Spamming cans or shuttles with the intent of causing lag is an exploit, however, dropping dead bodies or cans around a gate or a bubble camp with the intent of causing a ship to decloak is not considered to be an exploit, but rather a valid tactic... that's from both Devs and GMs... I'll go find the link...

Edit: Found the link - cans to decloak is not an exploit unless the measure to which you do it causes lag (from ye olden forums)

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#54 - 2011-11-15 21:22:34 UTC
Admiral Spaz wrote:

My solution is pretty simple: make interdiction nullifier subsystem give an agility penalty so these ships can be caught by skilled pilots. As far as botting is concerned.... CCP needs to address that in their own way :) I'd suggest that pilots jumping into system remain invisible to local chat until their gate cloak expires. I realize not everyone would be a fan of that though :)


that wouldn't accomplish much, since the interdiction nullifier is in now ay necessary to safely bypass a bubble camp. All you need is the ability to move quickly and cloak, for complete safety. And T3s happen to have a subsystem that lets them cloak at full speed and warp while cloaked...

All a T3 with just a covops subsystem has to do is align to an unexpected celestial away from the bubble while instantly cloaking, hit the MWD right afterwards, and enjoy moving at full MWD speed for one cycle until out of the bubble, at which point you just warp to some range other than 0, 100 or 50 and you are completely and utterly safe.
ACE McFACE
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#55 - 2011-11-15 21:42:50 UTC
fRoDdEr's wrote:
Lord Ryan wrote:
Please see signature.


I can actually fly all four t3's. I dont use them as cloakies since there are other ships that suit my needs better, they have limitations though, which should also be the case with cloaky nullified t3#s.

Clearly we need to nerf those ships then if they do an even better job at being a scout than t3s, seeing as you think they are so overpowered

Now, more than ever, we need a dislike button.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#56 - 2011-11-15 22:12:07 UTC
fRoDdEr's wrote:
.

Except DPS they make no sacrifice. People can tackle, scout and tank with these ships at the same time.


What? This is utterly false, fit a normal fit that dose all of these things you're asking for.

fRoDdEr's wrote:
. In travel they are practically invulnerable. With an insta-safes they will get out of every single station, even in 0.0. If you happen to actually tackle on at a station the ******** ehp will let him easily redock (if they happen to undock at a bad angle on kickouts they can ctrl-space and redock).


Stop sucking, would you like me to post you kill mails of nullified t3's? If you want to catch them, they can be caught, but not if you're bad.

fRoDdEr's wrote:
. To actually catch one on a gate you need a good hour of setting up can (which will be petioned). You need enough DPS and effective tackle so they do not make it back to the gate.


You don't need an hour, you need 2 ships, thats really the base, and as far as 'enough dps to kill them before they make it back to a gate", that applies to EVERY SHIP THAT USES A GATE.

fRoDdEr's wrote:
. Despite the scanning changes they can still sit around being practically unscannable, in some cases even run missions or plexes while being totally immune.


Not really, you need to know how to probe, and actually be a dedicated prober to find, hold on for a sec, a ship that dedicates itself to being hard to probe down. Those unprobable fits are virtually naked, they've given up the ability to do ANYTHING else besides be unprobable in most situations now. And the ones that can act are as fragile as glass.

They've dedicated their isk and fit to being unprobable, but you want any old jerk in a rapier to just be able to throw on a proble launcher and catch them.

Sorry thats not the way EVE works, if you put in effort to not being found, I have to put in equal effort to find you.



fRoDdEr's wrote:
. I think its time that this issue gets addressed.


The only issue here is you being ignorant of game mechanics and lazy, CCP can't help you with either of those.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Shivus Tao
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2011-11-15 22:24:49 UTC
Cloaky nullified T3's are fine. They can only be cloaky nullified by sacrificing slots and DPS. And it's correct that you only need two ships to catch one. A good interceptor for the initial decloak and tackle, and a ship beefy enough to burn it down after the tackle.

T3 cruisers have drawbacks. Either you fit them to fight, or to be cloaky and nullified. If the former, they can't cloak and warp through bubbles. If the latter they only do as much damage as a T1 cruiser.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#58 - 2011-11-15 23:45:17 UTC
Admiral Spaz wrote:

T3 align time is also an issue related to botting. 90% of the 0.0 ratting bots use T3 cruisers due to their invulnerability to being caught by actual humans. Yes I realize that not all T3's used in 0.0 are bots.... It's easy to identify them. Even if you manage to jump in system and get a lucky scan on the bot, it's already initiated warp the moment you've entered local. The align speed of the botting T3 means you will NEVER catch him. By the time you land he's already warping off to a safe and cloaking. I can't see why an honest Eve player would defend this at all. Whether you're a high sec miner, mission runner, or ratter. Unkillable bots in these superships only ruin the economy and make your efforts worth less.


Unless you already have the anomaly bookmarked, the align speed of a carrier makes them impossible to catch even if you pick the right anomaly on scan.
2sec to load grid/decloak (if you're lucky, since you appear in local well before you load grid)
10sec to run system scanner (longer if you want to scan instead)
10sec to warp (pretty much minimum)
1 sec to load grid (generous)
1 sec to lock (1 sec ticks)
1 sec for point to cycle on (eve works in 1sec ticks, thats why you get "module lag")

25 seconds total for the carrier to get out, assuming it sits at 0. Is there any way you can justify a T3 Cruiser that takes 25sec to align?

Heck, even discounting warp duration, 15 second align time isn't really justifiable.

A carrier going from 0m/s to warp will be in warp before you land, and all this is assuming you're perfect, and are lucky. If you have a bm, you can catch one if they aren't aligned, or if they're in warp, but pretty much catching any ratter who's paying attention comes down to luck or negligence on the ratter's part (I've been guilty on that one. Never ratting during the AT again)

So.... beyond the faulty premise (that T3 are the problem) and the idea that the solution is an align time nerf to the interdiction nullifier (that nobody uses while ratting), what's your point? T3 are good at things?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Quinc4623
Space Explorers Federation
#59 - 2011-11-16 00:25:01 UTC
It seems most players and most devs agree that certain ships with certain load outs should in fact be able to bypass a gate camp without extreme effort. Not just any ship can do this, but some can. The Blockade Runners are called that for a (insert favorite curse here) reason. Introduced later, T3s can be configured into uber blockade runners minus the cargo space.

Obviously the pirates are frustrated that people get away, wondering "What's the point if I even the best can't win 100% of the time?" Even though unlike an actual fight you don't actually lose anything when you lose.

Actually many of them probably take the same attitude with girls...
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#60 - 2011-11-16 03:24:56 UTC
Aqriue wrote:
Gogela wrote:
I use a nullified cloaky tengu w/ stabs and major tank, no weapons, as a nullsec transport for high-value items. I will tell you right now that I have never been even close to getting caught. My Tengu are uncatchable, just as a blockade runner is in low sec. It is a "win" button. If CCP is to fix this, they need to make blockade runners catchable in low sec. I know there are those who will say they have caught these ship in their respective sec dominated spaces, but the truth is that no they didn't, because the pilot of the blockade runner or cloaky nullified T3 made some huge mistake. If the pilot is even remotely competent, you can't catch them. Period.

The problem is that in this game there should be a counter measure for everything, and the answer is simple... release the 'Voila' Anti-Cloaking Pulse I module on tranquility. That would fix everything. You already have the answer built. Just give it to the players...

Otherwise, I'll just keep slipping through massive bubble camps like they aren't even there, and thinking about nullsec as an over-glorified version of empire.

Fly safe guys... I do.

Tengu has small cargo bay, so it doesn't replace a T2 transport. Tengu flys many, many, many more times to move even the same amount of cargo a T2 transport can. Means you are in more danger, which means you get really good. Or you die over and over. Bubbles just give you a huge advantage at catching things, I mean how hard is it to right click -> deploy object and anchor then expect everyone that lands 50km behind the gate to just die to some goober that Shift Mouse Click -> F1 Key -> Sensor Booster -> I win.. Bubbles have 1 counter, that is the T3 cruiser (or spend time making book marks, which takes so long who the **** cares?). And that is a problem?

T3 nullifier adds to the meta game experience, you know the one lone scout guy that gets passed enemy lines (lol static zone line concept circa 1999 concept, you get a SSoY or FBSS to drop at your camps yet?) and lights a cyno. Makes it more interesting to you then just sitting at that gate popping everything as they spawn hopping its the Ghoul Lord ...I mean a freighter before it self destructs Roll

If you want to nerf the Nullifier, Cloak + MWD trick, jump bridges, JF and all that jazz then CCP better sure as **** nerf your gaming experience in the form of the gate camp to make it really unenjoyable. I am pretty sure less people will bother to fly out to null and you better know damn well it will be your fault so you might as well have a less enjoyable game amirite ?




This is why I push for point-to-point system warp capabilities for more ships.

Sometimes a null camper will give good advice on the forums in how to avoid bubbles but that works mainly against bubble campers who are bad at it. Even after a short time of avoiding bubbles I started to figure out how to counter the counters and if I can figure that out, anybody can.


Until then, the Great Wall of Carebear is not coming down. The only thing I send into gate camps and bubbles is a cheap T1-equiped alt.


Bring back DEEEEP Space!