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A review of player giveaways with CCP and third party sites

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Josef Djugashvilis
#361 - 2013-09-27 13:04:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Josef Djugashvilis
Is it totally unreasonable of me to suspect that Somer Blink alts are likely to do well in the lottery?

This is not a signature.
Daktar Jaxs
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#362 - 2013-09-27 13:07:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Daktar Jaxs
X ATM092 wrote:

Just for clarification. Is this CCP giving a guarantee that they have examined Blink's workings, their RNG and so forth and are willing to guarantee the legitimacy of the service that Blink offers?

Is this unheard of audit of a player run service by CCP going to become available to other player run enterprises?


The answer to the first part must obviously be yes, otherwise there is no way CCP could believe their behaviour was reasonable. I look forward to seeing the "CCP Certified" stamp on SOMER Blink's wiki listing and forum thread.
Sturmwolke
#363 - 2013-09-27 13:08:53 UTC
CCP Navigator wrote:

Q3, How do we know we can trust Fansites and third parties to operate fairly and independently?

A3, We have worked with a lot of third party sites in the past such as EVE Radio, BIG Lottery and SOMER Blink. These entities (and others of course) have demonstrated a solid history of trust and reliability. As a result, we can verify that they have been straight and true in their dealings and this should be encouraged.

This here is a problem. You have a principal conflict of interest, specifically the lottery schemes (or any others) :

a) for profit entitities
b) business model, in essence, works by taxing the stupid man. On moral grounds, it's a negative.

Any of your assurances isn't going to fly unless details have been provided in an investigative report which is made public (remember the T2 moongoo scandal? ... and others?).
The long EVE history demonstrated that when there's smoke billowing, there's a fire. Not always, but pretty damn often enough.

Keep it clean. Limit giveaways promotion to non-profit third party sites in the future ... infact, better yet, you should NEVER DO any giveway unless is under an offical CCP banner.
This SOMER case is a "wtf were you thinking" in action.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#364 - 2013-09-27 13:11:22 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
I don't know why everyone is so mad really. Would you all be annoyed if they teamed up with Budwiser to do a give away based on codes on bottle tops?


Budweiser are not an in-game entity who are competing with other in-game entities, so they would not be gaining an unfair advantage over other players, and would not be interfering with the sandbox.
Bronco Platz
Doomheim
#365 - 2013-09-27 13:11:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Bronco Platz
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Is it totally unreasonable of me to suspect that Somer Blink alts are likely to well in the lottery?


CCP Navigator said, SOMER is trustworthy. They were and will be in future. So this that you said, could not be true...

P.S.:Hopefully I had not to use sarcasm-tags or something.

This signature is under NDA. Sorry.
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#366 - 2013-09-27 13:13:40 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
KIller Wabbit wrote:
Of course Blink being a serious sponsor of the in and out of game activities of certain CCP devs (prior to employment of course) wasn't an influence on CCP's decision here. No sir.


Could you please expand on this thread for those of us who do not have any idea what you are talking about or is it because you once heard somebody say they heard somebody say something?


Yes, I heard someone say it - a current dev himself for example.

Before he was CCP Rise
Ra Jackson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#367 - 2013-09-27 13:25:11 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Is it totally unreasonable of me to suspect that Somer Blink alts are likely to well in the lottery?


Eve Online is known especially for its fair and honest players. How dare you?
Ra Jackson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#368 - 2013-09-27 13:29:55 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:

Shhhh..

People (well most seem to be goons + alt on this thread don't want to here about how Somer funded New Eden Open and provided player driven content.


Tell us more, Somerblink alt.
Memnon Shepard
The Occupation.
#369 - 2013-09-27 13:48:38 UTC
Jamison wrote:

Andrev Nox wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Pull Chribba Dice support in protest.


Do you feel any hypocrisy posting that 32 minutes after you claimed your free gift on our site?

Just curious if you'd prefer to withdraw your use of our gifts in protest :)


Original post.

This is so wrong, how many EULA violations is this exactly CCP Navigator? Does a reply like this meet the TOS?

Regardless if it is true or not, the only way of knowing this information would be for this person to look into the personal data on SOMER BLINK and then turn around and writing about it in a public post.

The fact that the issues are being completely ignored by CCP Navigator and was was never mentioned to the CSM makes me think that we have not begun to hear the whole story.

Just how long was this project being worked on, who was involved with the deal and what have people been given to make this work?




One could also be looking at the page when the gift was claimed, where the information is posted publicly for every player to see. I'm pretty sure that doesn't make it private top-secret privileged information.
Clio Fenatti
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#370 - 2013-09-27 14:14:23 UTC
Julia Reave wrote:
From this thread:

CCP Navigator wrote:

[...]
We would also like to address the role of SOMER Blink in this change. They have had three years of constantly delivering on every blink, blast and bonk they have organized.
[...]


From https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3656860#post3656860 :

CCP Navigator wrote:

[...]
SOMER Blink have a history of being trustworthy and honoring every blink played without exception.
[...]
Q4, So you said earlier that SOMER Blink are trusted. Does that mean CCP is promising they will always deliver?

A4, Not at all. What I am saying is that to date they have been 100% trustful and we expect that will continue.
[...]


Emphasis in italics by me.

Would you mind proving that to an extent which leaves no shadow of doubt? How do you even know?

Even if this proof does exist and will be presented in a satisfactory manner, which I doubt, that still leaves other valid points which have been raised before of favoritism, handing out free ISK, promoting a lottery in a game which is available to teens etc.



Everybody is a good guy until the day they do something bad, and CCP is sitting on that proverbial time bomb.

As a new player that recently subbed, finding out about these turn of events has made me immediately regret my decision.

On an unrelated note, will CCP refund my sub or must I contest it with paypal?
Sid Hudgens
Doomheim
#371 - 2013-09-27 14:15:18 UTC
By this logic the CCP devs cannot show up for eve vegas either. Somer blink is a sponsor of eve vegas and will have their logos everywhere. The CCP devs showing up will provide additional exposure for this event and that results in free marketing for somer blink. Marketing and exposure is the lifeblood of an organization like somer blink so CCP would be giving them an unfair advantage by showing up to eve vegas.

I don't see how any of this is unfair btw. If another organization sponsored some player events and tournaments and provided a bunch of publicity for EVE then I think it's highly likely that CCP would want to collaborate with them as well.

Most of this ranting is just a result of people being buttmad that somer blink is playing EVE better than you.

Mr. Buttmad: But ... oh the sandbox ... they are effecting the sandbox ... whaaaaaa ... it's not fair

Give me a break. Life isn't fair. EVE isn't fair. There is meta-game. There are all sorts of things that give people advantages and disadvantages that cross over from out-of-game to in-game. I have to pay :tenbux: to have a chance to join goonswarm. What if I can't afford that? What if I was banned from somethingawful? How is that fair? Shouldn't I have a chance to join?

So some of you are going to say "tough, go form your own evil space empire..." Fine with me. To you I will say to go form your own EVE gambling site that is so successful that it gets sponsorship deals.

HTFU

"....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced."
sally Deninard
mss industry
#372 - 2013-09-27 14:15:49 UTC
I have a couple of reasonable questions to ask to CCP Navigator if possible to try and remove the grey out of a very black and white situation.

I will open with a quote from yourself.

"These new cruisers will be unique assets that will be owned only by these players. We will not give these out again."

It is a fair assumption to make that all players in eve in the eyes of CCP are equal, that every single person from a bitter vet to a single day character can achieve the greatest things.
This is what makes eve unique amongst MMORPG`s and something every player and Dev would like to retain.
Eve as a game client must retain neutrality and fairness, the client itself should treat players with reasonable equality and fairness. It needs to to this to retain its integrity as a computer game which is why devs try to remove bots and unfair advantages.

If the Eve game was biased it would be broken.

If yourselves (CCP) are intending to behave in a fair and equal fashion then this unique ship or the paid trip should be available to every single player in Eve to win. The competition has to be open to everybody to retain equality, neutrality and avoid discrimination.

So the questions.
1. Do you want every eve player to have the chance to win these prizes?
(giving 1 group of players an opportunity and not another group may be viewed as favourtism of some sort, not on purpose but still.)

2. Are there players in eve that have adhered to the eve terms and conditions but cannot for any reason play somer blink?

(in short yes... people have been banned from blink for rolling alts etc etc)

3. How do you give these players the opportunity to win these prizes, surely not giving them a chance is biased an unfair?

(They cannot blink to enter because they have an account ban.)

4. If you cannot give banned bilnk players a chance to win do you still think the competition should go ahead and why do you think that these players should miss out?

I hope these questions can be answered but I fear not. The problem with the whole situation is that changing the prizes does nothing for the setup.
I know the intentions are good and that any discrimination by CCP is not intended, but the actual relationship between CCP and SOMER in this way causes an unexpected bias, this I feel is what the players have picked up on.
The only real logical cures are to remove the lottery or for SOMER to unban all of its accounts. This is the only way CCP can retain impartiality in this case .

TLDR I myself have no highground I need to stand on, so I blinked my arse off last night.
My wifes account is banned from SOMER ,maybe for rolling an alt and claiming the entry bonuses or being on the same IP .. I don`t know.How does she get a chance at a unique ship when she is a seperate payng eve player ?




.



Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#373 - 2013-09-27 14:23:55 UTC
Sid Hudgens wrote:
words


look, another one that thinks somer blink is a charity

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Sid Hudgens
Doomheim
#374 - 2013-09-27 14:32:00 UTC
Andski wrote:
Sid Hudgens wrote:
words


look, another one that thinks somer blink is a charity


How in the name of buttmad goon tears did you get "charity" out of my post?

I know you've probably got your list of official goon talking points for this topic but you could at least read my post before picking which one to parrot into this thread.

"....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced."
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#375 - 2013-09-27 14:34:04 UTC
the only people bothered by CCP giving insane wealth to a player entity are goons, apparently

is everyone in this thread who isn't applauding CCP for giving somer blink trillions of isk a goon alt?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Bronco Platz
Doomheim
#376 - 2013-09-27 14:45:26 UTC
/me definite not. Word!

This signature is under NDA. Sorry.
MyEveLotto
Doomheim
#377 - 2013-09-27 14:45:28 UTC  |  Edited by: MyEveLotto
Dear CCP,

As I have previously mentioned, I host another lottery site which provides a service to players and hosts. While I do not do microtransactions and do not actively work to part money from those who may or may not suffer from gambling addictions as I do not run lotteries myself, I provide a service that allows hosts to run their own lotteries, track their ticket purchases and select the winners of the lottery.

I would like to propose a more reasonable method you could have taken for getting these ships into players' hands without unfairly and heavily showing favoritism toward one in-game entity:

Using myEVElotto, you are the host. You handle the ticket purchases. All the money goes to the host, and delivering the prizes is up to the host. All my site does is provide the back-end to support the host.

CCP could use a CCP account to host a lottery. Make it unlimited tickets, 1 ticket per person, costing .01 ISK and ending on a certain date.

In this way, anyone who can afford .01 ISK (anyone) can purchase a ticket and it does not lock out any particular users since players are not banned from myEVElotto as they may be through Somer Blink. By limiting it to 1 ticket per person, everyone has an equal chance of winning a prize (I realize that, yes, it does give a little bit of an advantage to those with more alts, but it's not as huge of an advantage as buying 5b worth of blinks would give). By making it unlimited tickets, you assure that every member of the community is able to take part in this community event. And by ending it on a certain date, you give people fair notice that they have until that date to purchase their tickets. You could even have it end during EVE Vegas and hand out the prizes then! Think of the publicity!

If you don't want to use the integrated rolling system, you could even use Chibbra Dice (which is a pretty well-trusted third party dice rolling system) to figure out the winners, or select winners live at EVE Vegas. Again, publicity!

And the best part about it? The only money that goes into the player community is the 25m it would cost you to host your unlimited ticket lottery on myEVElotto! Hell, I'd likely even make it free since you're CCP!

No priceless ships would go to any third party. No advantage would be given to one particular in-game entity over another. No trillions of ISK just handed to a corporation. And another advantage is that, because CCP would be running the lottery themselves, there's no chance that someone would just run off with all the ships! You say that you trust Somer Blink as a reliable organization, but what's a more reliable and trustworthy organization than yourself!

Thank you for your time and understanding on these concerns, and I hope that this quick run-down on how myEVElotto works will better assist you in determining a more viable and fair method of delivering priceless items to the community in the future.

Remember, for all you lottery hosting needs, there's myEVElotto!

Sincerely,
MyEveLotto

PS: I doubt you'll choose to go this route as I do not have any links to GTC retailers on my site. I find third party advertising to be garish and annoying and choose to not subject my users to it. If it will increase my chances of being handed trillions of ISK, however, I will listen to your desires and add loads of GTC advertising to my site.

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell

myEVElotto.com - The New Public Lottery Site
Lady Naween
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#378 - 2013-09-27 14:49:27 UTC
*facepalms hard*

i dont know which is sadder, CCP doing this or ranger defending them.
Bronco Platz
Doomheim
#379 - 2013-09-27 14:53:13 UTC
It will end in a draw I think.

This signature is under NDA. Sorry.
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
#380 - 2013-09-27 15:01:41 UTC
Sid Hudgens wrote:
Mr. Buttmad: But ... oh the sandbox ... they are effecting the sandbox ... whaaaaaa ... it's not fair

Give me a break. Life isn't fair.
Guess what, I'm not paying anyone a monthly subscription fee for life.

Quote:
EVE isn't fair.
That's a problem right there. Cause I am actually paying a subscription fee for Eve and I expect a fair sandbox in return.

Quote:
There is meta-game. There are all sorts of things that give people advantages and disadvantages that cross over from out-of-game to in-game. I have to pay :tenbux: to have a chance to join goonswarm. What if I can't afford that? What if I was banned from somethingawful? How is that fair? Shouldn't I have a chance to join?
Meta-game is fine if it's done by players. I'm not asking Somer to be fair, I'm not asking Goons to be fair, I'm asking CCP to be fair. They are the referees of this game and I expect them to be neutral.

I can very well remember CCP devs saying that they themselves don't want to touch the sandbox any more than absolutely necessary, because the players are supposed to be at the helm. So I just want them to follow their own promises. That means don't influence competition in the game unless it's really absolutely necessary for the continued entertainment of a majority of players. And those very rare cases would be almost always disrupting big monopolies, not supporting them. And even then it should come through changed game mechanics and balancing and not by plainly supporting someone.

Andski wrote:
is everyone in this thread who isn't applauding CCP for giving somer blink trillions of isk a goon alt?
Confirming I'm totally a Goon alt.