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FIX LOGI FIX MISSILE SHIPS PVP

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Darling Hassasin
Parental Control
Didn't want that Sov anyway.
#1 - 2013-09-26 05:48:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Darling Hassasin
This thread delivers a whacky idea for fixing problems with logis and missile ships in pvp. It is a one stone two birds kind of thingy.

LOGI: Now most of you will say "wtf are you on about dude? Logis allready rock in pvp". This is trueto an extent, they rock for the gang. The Logi however runs the same risk, is a fairly difficult ship to fly well, turns the tide on fights but doesnt get on any killmails. The suggestion I make is to add one additional highslot on all Logis hard coded to take a new module, like a painter.

Stats: can only be fitted on Logis, same effects as T2 painter but (a) its optimal is same as optimal+fall off of regular painter (b) it applies a 5% speed reduction on target ship and (c) only one can be fitted per vessel. Insane fitting requirements. 99% reduction for fitting it in the Logi role bonus. This and/or add 2-3 targetting slots on the Logis. Now it can (if fast enough) lock primary and apply this painter for mail whoring with a twist.

THE TWIST: Well the twist is this is how you also fix missile ships. Nuff said.

Any flaming and hate please keep squarely focused on the idea on its merits. Please especially dont start missile v turrets phail posting explaining how I am missile user and dont know how turrets work etc etc. I run a good 5 high end (50 - 130 mill SP) chars for pvp so I sort of have a solid understanding of all weapon systems in the close-to 9 years I have been pew pew -ing.
Xander Det89
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
#2 - 2013-09-26 07:02:56 UTC
So all you really want is for logi pilots to has more killmailz?
Qaidan Alenko
Eezo-Lution Inc.
#3 - 2013-09-26 07:08:03 UTC
That and a high slot Target Painter...
Go ahead... Get your Wham on!!!
Jezza McWaffle
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#4 - 2013-09-26 07:46:03 UTC
Good Logi pilots wont care about killboard whoring plus why would a logo pilot want to lock up an enemy ship which will interfere with his locked targets and reps.

Wormholes worst badass | Checkout my Wormhole blog
Yolo
Unknown Nation
#5 - 2013-09-26 07:46:30 UTC
Or easier solution would be to also include supporting ships on a killmail.

(Similar to how criminal-flags work)

- since 2003, bitches
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
#6 - 2013-09-26 07:50:38 UTC
Yolo wrote:
Or easier solution would be to also include supporting ships on a killmail.

(Similar to how criminal-flags work)



This.

NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
Darling Hassasin
Parental Control
Didn't want that Sov anyway.
#7 - 2013-09-26 08:01:07 UTC
You all kind of missed the point of how this helps missile ships in pvp at the same time but I am ok with that. Whatever the community wants Bear
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#8 - 2013-09-26 08:42:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
AFAIK:

Logi = Logistics by definition: Logistics is the management of the flow of resources between the point of origin and the point of consumption in order to meet some requirements. In our case the flow of Shield\Armour\Structure (Lol) and Capacitor to the target in order to keep their arse firmly in the fight.

Target Painters = Electronic Warfare

Want a TP? Drop a mid-slot module and fit one. They are slot assigned to fall in with choices and consequences. This idea, IMO, doesn't need to happen as the choice is already in place.

Or drop rep drones if you are carrying them for TP drones...

Choices are there already IG.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Darling Hassasin
Parental Control
Didn't want that Sov anyway.
#9 - 2013-09-26 08:47:31 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
AFAIK:

Logi = Logistics by definition: Logistics is the management of the flow of resources between the point of origin and the point of consumption in order to meet some requirements. In our case the flow of Shield\Armour|Structure (Lol) and Capacitor to the target in order to keep there arse firmly in the fight.

Target Painters = Electronic Warfare

Want a TP? Drop a mid-slot module and fit one. They are slot assigned to fall in with choices and consequences. This idea, IMO, doesn't need to happen as the choice is already in place.

Or drop rep drones if you are carrying them for TP drones...

Choices are there already IG.


No one said these options do not exist. There is furthermore the option to fit hobos or warrirors or ... and do some dmg on top of the mail ******. What I propose however is fundamentlly different due to the synergy with missile ships and "at double optimal range painting".

As I said in the OP pls try to comment on the precise merit demerit.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#10 - 2013-09-26 09:29:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
Darling Hassasin wrote:
As I said in the OP pls try to comment on the precise merit demerit.


I did...and I don't think it has merit. Please try reading before "Reply Bashing".

If you want Electronic Warfare then bring an EW ship to the field or compromise on the Logistic fit and bring a hybrid without the bonus. It's all about choices and consequences and having an EW bonus on a Logistics ship doesn't fit with the class.

Sorry but that is obviously just my opinion on it and I'm sure others will have their own.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#11 - 2013-09-26 09:47:10 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Darling Hassasin wrote:
As I said in the OP pls try to comment on the precise merit demerit.


I did...and I don't think it has merit. Please try reading before "Reply Bashing".

If you want Electronic Warfare then bring an EW ship to the field or compromise on the Logistic fit and bring a hybrid without the bonus. It's all about choices and consequences and having an EW bonus on a Logistics ship doesn't fit with the class.

Sorry but that is obviously just my opinion on it and I'm sure others will have their own.


Actually, i can speak for the rest of the game playing base on this one, your opinion is dead on!

+1

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Darling Hassasin
Parental Control
Didn't want that Sov anyway.
#12 - 2013-09-26 10:30:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Darling Hassasin
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Darling Hassasin wrote:
As I said in the OP pls try to comment on the precise merit demerit.


I did...and I don't think it has merit. Please try reading before "Reply Bashing".

If you want Electronic Warfare then bring an EW ship to the field or compromise on the Logistic fit and bring a hybrid without the bonus. It's all about choices and consequences and having an EW bonus on a Logistics ship doesn't fit with the class.

Sorry but that is obviously just my opinion on it and I'm sure others will have their own.


Well technically we are not dicsussing an EW bonus but I take your point. It is certainly a departure from current norm for this class. Would you care to elaborate however on why you think this is a bad thing.

This community is somehwta prejudiced against change to protect pvp balnce and they are right to be so to an extent. On the other hand this is the features and ideas discussion a part of the forums where it is helpful to discuss new ideas with as little prejudice as possible. Hence lets think about this, other than the fact that this looks like a dangerous change just because it is a change, can we identify the actual dangers?

For example do you think Logis in combat are already OP and this would further increase their usefulness, even marginally, so it is a step in the wrong direction for this reason?

This what I mean about merits and demerits.
Darling Hassasin
Parental Control
Didn't want that Sov anyway.
#13 - 2013-09-26 10:31:42 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Darling Hassasin wrote:
As I said in the OP pls try to comment on the precise merit demerit.


I did...and I don't think it has merit. Please try reading before "Reply Bashing".

If you want Electronic Warfare then bring an EW ship to the field or compromise on the Logistic fit and bring a hybrid without the bonus. It's all about choices and consequences and having an EW bonus on a Logistics ship doesn't fit with the class.

Sorry but that is obviously just my opinion on it and I'm sure others will have their own.


Actually, i can speak for the rest of the game playing base on this one, your opinion is dead on!

+1


I am glad you disclosed this fact. In the future when I need to know what the community thinks I will ask you directly, mr. Nobody Lol
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#14 - 2013-09-26 11:11:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
Darling Hassasin wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Darling Hassasin wrote:
As I said in the OP pls try to comment on the precise merit demerit.


I did...and I don't think it has merit. Please try reading before "Reply Bashing".

If you want Electronic Warfare then bring an EW ship to the field or compromise on the Logistic fit and bring a hybrid without the bonus. It's all about choices and consequences and having an EW bonus on a Logistics ship doesn't fit with the class.

Sorry but that is obviously just my opinion on it and I'm sure others will have their own.


Well technically we are not dicsussing an EW bonus but I take your point. It is certainly a departure from current norm for this class. Would you care to elaborate however on why you think this is a bad thing.

This community is somehwta prejudiced against change to protect pvp balnce and they are right to be so to an extent. On the other hand this is the features and ideas discussion a part of the forums where it is helpful to discuss new ideas with as little prejudice as possible. Hence lets think about this, other than the fact that this looks like a dangerous change just because it is a change, can we identify the actual dangers?

For example do you think Logis in combat are already OP and this would further increase their usefulness, even marginally, so it is a step in the wrong direction for this reason?

This what I mean about merits and demerits.


I like your reply, you're right that this is F&I so let's look a little deeper under the hood and see if I have been a little too prejudice.

Darling Hassasin wrote:
(a) its optimal is same as optimal+fall off of regular painter
(b) it applies a 5% speed reduction on target ship and
(c) only one can be fitted per vessel
+3 Locked Targets ability


The EW bonus that you would want to give is only restricted to one module (good with this) but it is far superior to a ship that is specialised in EW. A Golem for instance get's a hull bonus of 10% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level to a max of +50% but still has to deal with Falloff and Optimal.

A Basilisk would now have standard TP signature bloom (skills aside) but would have a 90km Range (Falloff + Optimal). Along with that it would have a -max velocity bonus as well...far too OP for a logistics ship.

Now if Logi's got an extra Hi-Slot to accommodate then why do you need the +3 Locked Targets (Basilisk would be Total Locked Targets 13! That's only two shy of a full Watchlist) What's to stop this from being "abused\exploited" and just using it as a way to grab an extra +3 Locked Targets in say Incursion Fleets?

If it's restricted to 1 Hi-Slot then give it +0 Locked Targets as a bonus to make people really think about whether they want their LogiBro's using up that extra slot. Personally it should be a +1 Mid-Slot if anything as it's EW and fit's better.

Now I can't see this being adopted by many as the room for error is there in that you could hit reps on an enemy accidentally...not great as this could be a double whammy whereby you rep the enemy and possibly drop one of your own ships in the process.

I still believe that ships have a specialisation for a reason and that is down to the choices and consequences of EVE. Anyone can fit anything but to get the most from it you want a hull that has the bonus for it. Adding more bonuses to more hulls means less specialisation and more homogenisation which we all hate.

Stats taken from: Target Painter II Base Accuracy Falloff: 60 km Optimal Range: 30 km
I've used a Basilisk as I am a Basi Pilot and that's what I know along with the Golem.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Darling Hassasin
Parental Control
Didn't want that Sov anyway.
#15 - 2013-09-26 12:05:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Darling Hassasin
Nice analysis. I did aim for a bit of free TPing at long range coming from the logis to help the missile users. I think one of the main reasons that we have not yet seen the Phoon and Raven doctrines that most predicted after the missile patch is exactly the need for TPs on the missile ship negating tank and / or utility. [Even more so in small gang warfare]

Regarding the +3 targets the intent was to help the Logi to have both friendly and enemy ships locked but you are right that it could and up as an (unnecessary) buff to the straight up defencive use of the Logis.

The things you present as problems are problems indeed...

The reason I thought of a high sot was because the intended use was (inter alia) to have the Logi pilot activating an "offensive" mod. Lorewise its easy of course, you just call it Target Pipointing Laser (looks a bit like a mining laser or something P )... Also I chose the one extra dedicated highslot to eliminate any other effect on the current set ups (always a good idea to eliminate the effect of a new feature to the use of existing features and load outs.).

Anyway I admit my concept needs improvement... but the problems remain (Logi not on mails and missile ships under used in pvp -for the last 6 years or so... arguably since 2003 bar the odd mOo cruise Kestrel lol-) and I d love it if we could come up with an idea to solve both.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#16 - 2013-09-26 12:21:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
Darling Hassasin wrote:
Nice analysis. I did aim for a bit of free TPing at long range coming from the logis to help the missile users. I think one of the main reasons that we have not yet seen the Phoon and Raven doctrines that most predicted after the missile patch is exactly the need for TPs on the missile ship negating tank and / or utility. [Even more so in small gang warfare]

Regarding the +3 targets the intent was to help the Logi to have both friendly and enemy ships locked but you are right that it could and up as an (unnecessary) buff to the straight up defencive use of the Logis.

The things you present as problems are problems indeed...

The reason I thought of a high sot was because the intended use was (inter alia) to have the Logi pilot activating an "offensive" mod. Lorewise its easy of course, you just call it Target Pipointing Laser (looks a bit like a mining laser or something P )... Also I chose the one extra dedicated highslot to eliminate any other effect on the current set ups (always a good idea to eliminate the effect of a new feature to the use of existing features and load outs.).

Anyway I admit my concept needs improvement... but the problems remain (Logi not on mails and missile ships under used in pvp -for the last 6 years or so... arguably since 2003 bar the odd mOo cruise Kestrel lol-) and I d love it if we could come up with an idea to solve both.


Well this is F&I...it'll evolve with others input and glad I didn't completely balls up my analysis of your idea\design. I'm sure others who use different doctrines will post up but I can see what you were going for but Logistics on KM's is easily solvable bay adding an "Assisted By" Section to KM's.

Missiles...oh my woe as I switched early in my career to missiles from projectile weapons because Caldari ships really appealed in design and I love missiles but there are some tweaks but they are getting better. I'm just still glad to have launchers on my hull instead of firing missiles out of my arse ShockedLol

Oh and I lost my first Corp Stabber to m0o in Hagilur circa early 2004. All before it became a "Occupy Hagilur"...some nostalgia for you but off topic:

Quotes

Many memorable quotes have emerged around m0o corporation.

Stavros > Keep flaming lamers, just like your ships did when we ended you

Spikum > I joined m0o just short before
Spikum > Reverent told me that he wanna check my scorp fitting and he need it to look at it
Spikum > i gaved it him
Spikum > then he kicked me out of corp
Tachy > Spikum :) mOo is a great corp, isn't it?

Odet > How is it possible we dont have a tackler?
Nmwone > Well if you'd stop killing all our recruits maybe we'd have a tackler right now.
Odet > I hope your mother dies tonite

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2013-09-26 15:46:12 UTC
Why are people so obsessed about their killboards or the appearance of logi on killmails?
Oswald Bolke
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2013-09-26 15:52:49 UTC
what about getting on mails are an assisting party for repping people?

of just chuck drone in and assist them on the leader
Ciaphas Cyne
Moira.
#19 - 2013-09-26 15:55:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Ciaphas Cyne
now most posts in Features and Ideas are self-serving, thats a given. Whats neat about this post is that its so specificly tailored to the OPs wants and desires. I also greatly appreciate the shocked "what do you mean this isnt something every player would want?" attitude.

"buff only the stuff I fly and nerf everything else"

  • you
Darling Hassasin
Parental Control
Didn't want that Sov anyway.
#20 - 2013-09-27 08:19:27 UTC
Ciaphas Cyne wrote:
now most posts in Features and Ideas are self-serving, thats a given. Whats neat about this post is that its so specificly tailored to the OPs wants and desires. I also greatly appreciate the shocked "what do you mean this isnt something every player would want?" attitude.


You should have read the OP to the end and you would realise that I can fly anything I want (and actually do). If I wanted a post about my personal needs it would probably be about docking supercapitals so I would have more of my chars available regularly.

However failposting is a time honoured tradition in eve-o froums so I am glad to see you keeping the faith.
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