These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Drones Assist Mechanic Question/Thought
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#121 - 2013-09-24 00:17:57 UTC
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:

the rest of us play in a game where reality actually lives

a world in which sentry fleets don't happen because they have too many limitations and too many easy to manage counters.

Nice troll 10/10


Wasn't the fountain war basically mega VS sentry? Some of the killboard did look like that IIRC.

That's apparently impossible, no one would ever use a sentry doctrine in the real world

The amazing Q9PP and one other fight I don't recall even had megathrons fighting sentry carrier blobs.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Ciaphas Cyne
Moira.
#122 - 2013-09-24 00:18:45 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
no, im answering the relevant points you raised
the rest im ignoring


did you also ignore my little pop quiz? or was it just too much "unreal sandwich crafting" for you to handle?

i am enjoying watching parmala tear you a new craphole though. is there a remote tissue distribution drone you can skill up in?

"buff only the stuff I fly and nerf everything else"

  • you
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#123 - 2013-09-24 00:19:32 UTC
hmm, are there hull rep drones?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#124 - 2013-09-24 01:27:54 UTC
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:

the rest of us play in a game where reality actually lives

a world in which sentry fleets don't happen because they have too many limitations and too many easy to manage counters.

Nice troll 10/10


Wasn't the fountain war basically mega VS sentry? Some of the killboard did look like that IIRC.

That's apparently impossible, no one would ever use a sentry doctrine in the real world

The amazing Q9PP and one other fight I don't recall even had megathrons fighting sentry carrier blobs.[/quote]

so 3 nulsec fleet fights .... out of how many that cover the same time interval

ie what percentage of fleet actions involve these 'unstoppable killer sentry fleets of death & destruction'
less than 1% ??
less than 10% ??
more than 50% ??
more than 90% ??

if they were that awesome, im sure nulsec would be full of nothing but your "sentry fleets"
someone needs to let N3 know about your awesome Dominix of pwnage with its 6 links & 5 trackers .........
they'll own all of nulsec in a week and no one will be able to stop them
and it will all be thanks to you



Ciaphas Cyne wrote:

did you also ignore my little pop quiz? or was it just too much "unreal sandwich crafting" for you to handle?

i am enjoying watching parmala tear you a new craphole though. is there a remote tissue distribution drone you can skill up in?


lol


just lol.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#125 - 2013-09-24 14:44:56 UTC
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:

So out of curiosity... if you kept a few snipers out of range of the sentry drones and moved the fleet to the other side of the pos....

That wouldn't work to adapt? Hell, you can warp through a pos. Perch points aren't hard to figure out or re make.

You can fit a Domi to have 200km drone control range, 191km optimal and 30k falloff with Wardens or 153+42 with bouncers without sacrificing tank. hard to dance around that even before considering dics/hics/anchored bubbles.

It can only lock out to 87km and has 112 scan res, but fortunately sentry assisting doesn't stop to consider silly things like range or time for locking targets. The domi only has to be within drone control range of the target, the insta locking remote sensor boosted bunny takes care of the rest.



That's an awesome point! Another thing those drones have, is falloff damage penalties as well. Which suprisingly enough, reduces the amount of alpha, which could be seen as increasing your own survivability.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#126 - 2013-09-24 15:01:56 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Actually what kind of tank does a sniper ship have to shoot at 200km, how well does it target a small sentry drone, and how fast will it die to 250 Dominixes worth of sentry drones



Well, if the pos is 70km "wide" and the sentries are on one side, and you warp to a tac on OTHER side... that drone ship has to move before you get there (which wouldn't work).

So, the tactical advantage is to the snipers, who can also shoot pos guns and towers while those sentries are being moved.

If they aren't moved, then the entire fleet moves rending the sentries ineffectual.

If they do move.. well... you have roaming logi doing patrols as needed (even with their own drones to assist).

Point being, there are still work around regardless, and drone ships in a pos is not an i-win button.

It's just lazy mode.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#127 - 2013-09-24 15:03:04 UTC
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:
so .....
your issue is with some dubious theory-crafted eft-warrior fail-fit dominix


Actually, if you so much as pretended to read the thread, you would realize:

My issue is with scrolling through an overview with over 200 targets on grid, looking for the one yellow box that means I have to overheat hardeners and broadcast for reps. While ignoring the other yellow boxes that are trying to troll me into flooding my logi's target list with random people. I have no way to tell if Ishtar137's lock on me will be followed by nothing, ewar, or the combined fire of a thousand sentries.

The effect of the late broadcasts only gets compounded with scan res damped logistics trying to keep up with a remote sensor boosted drone anchor chewing through targets.

Oddly enough, requiring the drone boat to lock the target for the assisted drones to fire fixes this issue. You know when you get primaried and can react. You have to sebo the whole fleet again if you want fast locks and have to deal with EWAR. It also fixes the "hiding in POS" problem in one fell swoop, because you can't lock people while inside a POS.



Don't scroll through the overview. Set specific tabs and watch your broadcasts? It's very easy to set specific tabs and cycle tabs as needed.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#128 - 2013-09-24 15:17:58 UTC
Andski wrote:
"one guy in an instalocking supertanked T3 commanding the DPS of 200 sentries is perfectly fine guys"


200 ships, shooting through friendlies and hitting one target for full damage is pretty stupid too.

Maybe that should be looked into also so we can harvest all the blobber tears.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#129 - 2013-09-24 15:20:32 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:

the rest of us play in a game where reality actually lives

a world in which sentry fleets don't happen because they have too many limitations and too many easy to manage counters.

Nice troll 10/10


Wasn't the fountain war basically mega VS sentry? Some of the killboard did look like that IIRC.


As a lowly grunt I was certainly not involved into any doctrine theorycrafting, but from what I understood the drone assist mechanic wasn't even the main reason for us to go for Prophecies.
It was because these ships were highly bomb resistant with small sig and excellent resistances and also rather newbie friendly and cheap.
The vast majority of kills in 6VDT was by bombers, at that time everyone was more concerned about bombs than anything else.

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#130 - 2013-09-24 15:42:16 UTC
It was a sov war, one might as well call it torpedo vs structure.

We were fighting because gevlon goblin said using bombers to shoot structures was stupid and would kill us. :smugdog:

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#131 - 2013-09-24 15:45:44 UTC
When you can killmailwhore on everyone, red or otherwise, in an area of effect your killboard stats look amazing.

Like 100 killmails from a single bomb into a fleet that was murdered by someone else.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#132 - 2013-09-24 15:59:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
Sentamon wrote:
Andski wrote:
"one guy in an instalocking supertanked T3 commanding the DPS of 200 sentries is perfectly fine guys"


200 ships, shooting through friendlies and hitting one target for full damage is pretty stupid too.

npc alts lol

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#133 - 2013-09-24 16:02:24 UTC
Some general ideas about drone functions.

-Seperate "Assist" and "Defend" functions. Leave Defend alone, but make "combat assist" skill based. leave repair drone functionality the same as it is now.

-Add skill "remote drone deployment". At zero, a character could not assign drones to assist another player. At lvl 5, a character could assign 5 unmanned drones (or 2 "manned" drones such as fighters to another player (or 1 drone to 5 other players or 1 fighter to 10 other players or any combination in between)

-Add skill "remote drone interfacing" ie the "drone bunny skill". At zero, a character could not use drones assigned to him from another player, each level would allow for control of assisted drones from 2 characters. At level 5 the character could control drones from up to 10 other characters (50 drones max, not including 5 drones from the drone controllers own ship of course).

Fighter and fighter bomber functionality would not change is a character would still only be able to command max 5 fighters or bombers assigned to him from a carrier/SC.

-Add module "Drone link Disruptor". Chance based like ECM, a successful jam would interupt the connection for 10 seconds between the ship and ALL drones (it's own and any assigned). Would not affect players ability to recall or launch drones.

-Add skill "Drone Link Compensation". Like the ship comp skills, it would lesson the chances of successful drone link disruption.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#134 - 2013-09-24 16:25:19 UTC
Hacking drones and "subverting" them would mean the next step.-

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#135 - 2013-09-24 18:46:34 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:

your issue is with some dubious theory-crafted eft-warrior fail-fit dominix
so actually your whining about that something that is now irrelevant and reportable if you do encounter it
you wanted a counter to a sentry baased fleet
in your world sentry fleets are unstoppable engines of destruction and carnage

Nice strawmen you have there.

Announced exploit is announced.
No one has a problem with sentry fleets in general or how to counter them in general.

No one said they're unstoppable. Those cries will come when goons start focus firing 5,000 bonused sentry drones with passive targeters. We're talking about how anti-fun sentry assist doctrines are to fly - both in and against. They largely remove what little individual pilot input exists on both sides of blob warfare.

Kitty Bear wrote:
so 3 nulsec fleet fights .... out of how many that cover the same time interval
ie what percentage of fleet actions involve these
less than 1% ??
less than 10% ??
more than 50% ??
more than 90% ??

I'm not going to do your homework for you. If you really want to tell us how insignificant of a fraction of null sec combat includes sentry drone boats, [citation needed].

I'll give you a hand though. Test featured prophecies in most of their fleets once they could no longer afford battleships. I'll leave it to you to figure out what the main weapon system of a Prophecy is, or how they fit them.


Now back to our tangent.

Kitty Bear wrote:

200km control range
191+30km optimal+fall off

[High]
6x Drone Link Augmentor II
[Mids]
5x Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
[Lows]
whatever
[Rigs]
whatever

actually fail-fit isn't a good enough description for just how bad and stupid theory-crafting 'possible' fittings can take you into the realms of delusional lunacy.

Really nice strawman. It's inconceivably bad because there's no prop mod on your imaginary fit right? I hope you don't mean the lack of Neutron Blasters, Neuts, Remote Rep, point, web or cap booster on it.

Why don't we clear that up.

[Dominix, Snipe]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II

100MN Afterburner II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link I
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II

Drone Link Augmentor II
Drone Link Augmentor II
Drone Link Augmentor II
Drone Link Augmentor II
Drone Link Augmentor II
Drone Link Augmentor I

Large Anti-EM Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I


It's so vastly different from the (now retired for ishtar) domi

[Dominix, Nulli]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Damage Control II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Target Spectrum Breaker
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II

Drone Link Augmentor II
Drone Link Augmentor I
Drone Link Augmentor I
Drone Link Augmentor I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Large Anti-EM Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I


The difference is astounding. You have to swap out like... half a dozen easily seeded mods on a doctrine fit for situational POS defense dickery. (I know it sacs tank in the meta damage control. Just t1 the highs for 188k control range and t2 the 4th omni or swap to remote sebo. The 4th omni is a somewhat significant boost in tracking vs hacs).


Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#136 - 2013-09-24 19:34:37 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Actually what kind of tank does a sniper ship have to shoot at 200km, how well does it target a small sentry drone, and how fast will it die to 250 Dominixes worth of sentry drones

Not much, unless it's some ******** domi shitfit which would be a stationary coffin. So paper sniper align tanked vs bombs. 10+ seconds to lock a drone if a battleship. Might as well just shoot the POS. It doesn't have to worry about the domi dps as long as it stays out of control range.

My initial thought was to use something like an Eagle for such purpose, but I haven't tried to fit one for 200+km. That's getting far too specific for large scale application. I hear someone has an unscanable rail tengu fit for this though.

Murk Paradox wrote:

That's an awesome point! Another thing those drones have, is falloff damage penalties as well. Which suprisingly enough, reduces the amount of alpha, which could be seen as increasing your own survivability.

The falloff only matters in case of something getting into drone control range, then burning out of it. If you have 188 control range and they're at 189 the drones just won't fire in the first place.

Also assuming they're spread around various sides of a shield to avoid bombs, the effective killzone would only be ~130 km. Beyond that half the drones would not fire. Not quite enough range to mindlessly park them around - the CFC mega fit can easily snipe at 150k with spike.

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#137 - 2013-09-24 22:57:54 UTC
Andski wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
Andski wrote:
"one guy in an instalocking supertanked T3 commanding the DPS of 200 sentries is perfectly fine guys"


200 ships, shooting through friendlies and hitting one target for full damage is pretty stupid too.

npc alts lol

down with all blobs lol

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Seraph Essael
Air
The Initiative.
#138 - 2013-09-25 04:05:28 UTC
So much di*k measuring in this thread its unbelievable! Gives for a good read though, going round in circles. Theres a funny little pattern going on...

Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."