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Are Capsuleers definitively "Immortal" outside of their ships?

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Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#61 - 2013-09-20 21:55:46 UTC
I know I'm maybe being a bit simplistic, but wouldn't it just be easier to have CONCORD ban personal weapons outside personal areas in stations? I'm assuming that if they've got devices that can scan your ship and cargo hold, it would be just as easy to scan you and take your guns and knives.

Just a thought, but it seems a lot less complicated to just leave people with nothing to fight with but their fists. That isn't likely to kill a capsuleer before station guards break the fight up.

Maybe plastic cutlery? Sporks?

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#62 - 2013-09-20 22:29:28 UTC
If you die away from your brain-pan scanner, you die. End of story!

A clone of you would then be activated with memories up to the last time you had a backup, and no memory of what the 'dead' you did after the backup (unless you left a sticky note on the fridge with what you did after the backup scan).

There is no capsuleer out of the pod (or clonebay) instant-transfer of consciousness. Ever. It's been said 100 times, even in this thread; DUST and Capsuleer implants are fundamentally incompatible, and there is no in-between. Those fancy implants that let you fly spaceships with your mind, make it impossible for you to plug in the DUST implants. If you want to zip your consciousness around, you clone jump via a clonebay. This is in a special place with special equipment, not out walking on the street.

So aside from the sorts of protections massive amounts of money and power bring you, at the end of the day you are just so much weak flesh once you are away from the scanning/xfer equipment.


All of this of course applies to us 'player' capsuleers.

There's the Broker, but he's a mary-sue if I've ever seen one :P

And technically if you were away from CONCORD you could probably activate more than one clone of yourself at the same time, but the extents of CONCORD control over these processes is not made aware to us.

IE the pirate factions have dust mercs, and have capsuleers not bound by concord. What's to stop them from activating a few dozen clones of Mordu?












Sabik now, Sabik forever

Isis Dea
Society of Adrift Hope
#63 - 2013-09-21 07:01:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Isis Dea
Silas Vitalia wrote:
If you die away from your brain-pan scanner, you die. End of story! ...

There's the Broker, but he's a mary-sue if I've ever seen one :P



See, be careful with that part. You're stating a lot of ultimatums as if the Broker truly terrifies you and upsets your concrete world of what you envision capsuleers are.

I herald from a time prior to DUST mercs ever existing, I know the feeling.

But technology evolves and capsuleers want more and more ways of being able to venture outside their capsule within the lore. Presently, there's a lot of freedom to do so, but also high potential to take a **** on the lore too.

Am trying to avoid that.

Yet an example being where I recommended the mechanics of the DUST implants. I'm not talking about the implant itself, only the vehicle aspect that allows for a wireless transfer.

Isn't it not far-fetched to say that it's possible to use the router portion ONLY from DUST implants to extend the range of the brain spike to a limited range outside the capsule? The router featured within DUST implants combined with a new (possibly illegal?) implant that features a mobile brain spike? Basicly, just a wireless connection to your capsule?

Am not trying to integrate DUST tech, am looking only to steal a component of it (for sake of helping RPers out).

And I can't find anything in the lore of DUST or EVE to suggest it wouldn't be possible.

(It would be new if so, possibly even an implant constructed by Serpentis Inquest...)

More Character Customization :: Especially compared to what we had in 2003...

Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#64 - 2013-09-21 21:07:44 UTC
How many times does falcon have to say this is not possible for capsuleers?

I'm not going to bother finding all the quotes, just work your fiction around this small constraint and get over it



Sabik now, Sabik forever

Isis Dea
Society of Adrift Hope
#65 - 2013-09-22 05:34:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Isis Dea
(double post)

More Character Customization :: Especially compared to what we had in 2003...

Isis Dea
Society of Adrift Hope
#66 - 2013-09-22 05:38:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Isis Dea
Silas Vitalia wrote:
How many times does falcon have to say this is not possible for capsuleers?

I'm not going to bother finding all the quotes, just work your fiction around this small constraint and get over it


You mean this quote?

CCP Falcon wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
I know a bunch of clones that don't need a pod to transfer consciousness, it is only matter of time for that implant starts finding its way into capsuleers.


That's not going to happen. The two technologies are fundamentally incompatible. Smile


That was never was an argument.

Please do find another quote as a vast number of the RP community are brushing this subject with the same debate. Nobody is trying to use DUST implants, only an aspect of them.

I am not prepared to tell them all they're wrong because some girl doesn't like capsuleer evolution, especially where common sense counters so easily.

Please, find another quote or I would ask you, instead, to get over it.

More Character Customization :: Especially compared to what we had in 2003...

Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#67 - 2013-09-22 22:14:54 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
I know a bunch of clones that don't need a pod to transfer consciousness, it is only matter of time for that implant starts finding its way into capsuleers.


That's not going to happen. The two technologies are fundamentally incompatible. Smile



CCP Falcon wrote:

When you unplug from the capsule, you're just as vulnerable as any other meat-sack out there



Speak with him yourself if you need further clarification, the point is there's no getting around it. You leave the pod, you are a weak flesh bag with no second chances.

Can't have it all.

Sabik now, Sabik forever

Isis Dea
Society of Adrift Hope
#68 - 2013-09-23 18:04:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Isis Dea
Silas Vitalia wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
I know a bunch of clones that don't need a pod to transfer consciousness, it is only matter of time for that implant starts finding its way into capsuleers.


That's not going to happen. The two technologies are fundamentally incompatible. Smile



CCP Falcon wrote:

When you unplug from the capsule, you're just as vulnerable as any other meat-sack out there



Speak with him yourself if you need further clarification, the point is there's no getting around it. You leave the pod, you are a weak flesh bag with no second chances.

Can't have it all.



Nobody is trying to have it all. And again, nobody is trying to use the DUST implant to accomplish any of this (only a reference for a future capsuleer-only implant). And there is reason to go around it as you're trying to make ultimatums about what a vast section of the RP community has been trying to play similarly to the role of The Broker as featured within the novel (one of the best feared examples of a capsuleer using their power to instigate an agenda).

In fact, technically whatever technology he used could easily be the base (or simply is the technology) we're referring to. And you troll the character because you don't like how invulnerable it makes some people.

I'm sorry, Miss Vitalia, you're right, you can't have it all.

I kindly hope a GM can clarify this and/or you can find a quote stating how The Broker is a purely fictional character and not within the EVE lore. Else I'm going to start recommending EVERYBODY start rolling out with Broker tech.

More Character Customization :: Especially compared to what we had in 2003...

CCP Falcon
#69 - 2013-09-23 22:35:03 UTC
Isis Dea wrote:
Silas Vitalia wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
I know a bunch of clones that don't need a pod to transfer consciousness, it is only matter of time for that implant starts finding its way into capsuleers.


That's not going to happen. The two technologies are fundamentally incompatible. Smile



CCP Falcon wrote:

When you unplug from the capsule, you're just as vulnerable as any other meat-sack out there



Speak with him yourself if you need further clarification, the point is there's no getting around it. You leave the pod, you are a weak flesh bag with no second chances.

Can't have it all.



Nobody is trying to have it all. And again, nobody is trying to use the DUST implant to accomplish any of this (only a reference for a future capsuleer-only implant). And there is reason to go around it as you're trying to make ultimatums about what a vast section of the RP community has been trying to play similarly to the role of The Broker as featured within the novel (one of the best feared examples of a capsuleer using their power to instigate an agenda).

In fact, technically whatever technology he used could easily be the base (or simply is the technology) we're referring to. And you troll the character because you don't like how invulnerable it makes some people.

I'm sorry, Miss Vitalia, you're right, you can't have it all.

I kindly hope a GM can clarify this and/or you can find a quote stating how The Broker is a purely fictional character and not within the EVE lore. Else I'm going to start recommending EVERYBODY start rolling out with Broker tech.


It's very easy to say that The Broker was a one off, and that quite literally no else in the cluster would have access to the technology, funding and capability that he did. His pockets were quite literally bottomless. He also did not use the same technology as DUST mercs do, and was around way before the technology ever existed. It was several years after he died that it was discovered, concieved and reverse engineered.

It's also good to look up your prime fiction with regards to how the capsule works. The Neural burning hardware used in a capsule quite literally fries your brain during the process of capturing its state once the pod is breached, turning you into a dribbling simpleton. It's so intrusive that it bombards the brain with all kinds of nasty radiation and causes instant breakdown of cellular integrity and the destruction of tissue.

The capsule's on board systems effectively euthanize you once the scan is complete with a lethal dosage of a methylmercury based neurotoxin that quite easily crosses the blood brain barrier and causes massive damage, in order to prevent you from being exposed to vacuum and dying far more painfully and horribly.

I just finished writing the technical backstory surrounding the capsule and it's basic operating principles a few weeks back Smile

It's not possible to be both a DUST mercenary and a capsuleer, hence why you have seperate characters for each purpose. The two technologies operate completely independantly of eachother and are so fundementally different that it makes them incompatible on the most basic of levels.

DUST mercenaries are an entirely different, albeit equally dangerous type of immortal. Smile

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3

Matar Ronin
#70 - 2013-09-23 22:55:42 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:

It's very easy to say that The Broker was a one off, and that quite literally no else in the cluster would have access to the technology, funding and capability that he did. His pockets were quite literally bottomless. He also did not use the same technology as DUST mercs do, and was around way before the technology ever existed. It was several years after he died that it was discovered, concieved and reverse engineered.

It's also good to look up your prime fiction with regards to how the capsule works. The Neural burning hardware used in a capsule quite literally fries your brain during the process of capturing its state once the pod is breached, turning you into a dribbling simpleton. It's so intrusive that it bombards the brain with all kinds of nasty radiation and causes instant breakdown of cellular integrity and the destruction of tissue.

The capsule's on board systems effectively euthanize you once the scan is complete with a lethal dosage of a methylmercury based neurotoxin that quite easily crosses the blood brain barrier and causes massive damage, in order to prevent you from being exposed to vacuum and dying far more painfully and horribly.

I just finished writing the technical backstory surrounding the capsule and it's basic operating principles a few weeks back Smile

It's not possible to be both a DUST mercenary and a capsuleer, hence why you have seperate characters for each purpose. The two technologies operate completely independantly of eachother and are so fundementally different that it makes them incompatible on the most basic of levels.

DUST mercenaries are an entirely different, albeit equally dangerous type of immortal. Smile

Well dang it all to heck! I'll have to re-cobble some of the fan fiction I am writing. Although the connection between Capsuleers and Dust 514 clones should represent a potent threat to the current status quo of the New Eden universe, getting them to work together when one is completely vulnerable in face to face meetings is going to be a challenge. Thanks for the clarification nonetheless.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.

Isis Dea
Society of Adrift Hope
#71 - 2013-09-24 13:19:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Isis Dea
*sigh* I give up.

Again, never was trying to mention trying to be a DUST merc nor use the implants of. The question was always could capsuleers construct technology similar in function to extend the capsule's functions beyond the capsule.

I guess everyone literally hates the idea or cares too much about people trying to play god in their own little story lines. I'll stop bothering people now.

More Character Customization :: Especially compared to what we had in 2003...

Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#72 - 2013-09-24 13:55:57 UTC
It is what it is.. =)

That being said, it is full of hand wavium and illogical conclusions..

As it is not a clone, simply a meat suit for a consciousness that is apparently mappable down to the nth degree.. To say that the consciousness cannot, due to reasons of genetics, I presume, make the crossover from one sort of meatsack to another, seems a rather shallow restriction to me.. But, hey, I'm not a Dev..Blink

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.

mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#73 - 2013-09-24 15:02:23 UTC
Isis Dea wrote:
Again, never was trying to mention trying to be a DUST merc nor use the implants of. The question was always could capsuleers construct technology similar in function to extend the capsule's functions beyond the capsule.


COULD they?


Seems like RP god says no. Bear

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

CCP Delegate Zero
C C P
C C P Alliance
#74 - 2013-09-24 18:19:25 UTC
As things stand the capsule's personality scanning functions, together with its core command and control interface functionality, are limited to operating within the confines of the hydrostatic capsule itself.

Capsuleer implants do not provide any personality recording and transmission capability. It's not what they are for. There is no sense in which a capsuleer can benefit from the capsule's personality scan and transfer functions at a remove. The technology simply isn't present unless they are somehow walking around with a transneural burning scanner and a high-bandwidth 4-helium fluid router in very close proximity to their heads.

That's not a setup you can fit in a helmet and backpack, let alone within the confines of a human-sized skull. It integrates very nicely with the capsule though. Or a jumpclone bay in a station. If you're really adventurous, you can mount it all in a vehicle but it isn't particularly recommended given the history of such attempts.

As for capsuleer and merc clones. They're really quite different in their design and functions under the surface. Not to mention implants and augmentations used by each class of cloned being are very different.

Each have their advantages and vulnerabilities depending on the situations and environments in which they're operating.

By the way, I think it's cool to build your own ideas and roleplay concepts onto the core capsuleer or merc experiences as expressed in the prime fiction available to you all. Sharing those roleplay experiences or fiction with others is great.

When we clarify things, as far as we can, it's not a matter of hating people's ideas or issuing divine mandates, but rather helping people to figure out what the core PF foundation can reasonably support.

Cheers,
DZ

CCP Delegate Zero | Content Designer - Writer | @CCPDelegateZero

Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#75 - 2013-09-24 18:46:03 UTC
I think you finally touched on Isis' suggestion, DZ. Until now, nobody had any idea how big or bulky the equipment actually was. We only knew that it existed in some form and for some reason wasn't available outside the capsule.

Realizing that it's (seemingly) a kitchen refrigerator sized 150kg block of machinery really explains why we can't just walk around with it outside the pod.

Katrina Oniseki

Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#76 - 2013-09-24 19:20:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
The transfer equipment is inside the skull of a Dust merc. It requires an unspecified distance within which a Clone Reanimation Unit is located. Probably a few Kilometers, if the location of CRU's and the Mobile Command Carrier on the Dust battlefield is any indication.

While I understand the implants are not compatible to the distinct uses of pod pilot vs. dust merc, the idea that seperate "clones" is beyond the capabilities of current tech seems shallow and not too far off, at best.

An infomorph, which is what we truly are, suggests the possibility in the not too distant future.

Awakened Infomorph suggests a Sleeper, Dust tech infomorph, has been able to circumvent these restrictions by hijacking a pod pilot "clone".Pirate

There are several forms of "cloning", the jump clone being one that has not shown to use the destructive method of transfer. While prohibitive, impossible is a bit much to swallow without a tad bit of hand wavium.. P

Now the idea that such a transfer could be devastating to the infomorph's psyche holds alot of merit... Perhaps requiring a new skill, Advanced Infomorph Psychology?

And actually, a CRU is the size of a tank... But, you wouldn't need to carry it around with you, only stay within the effective transfer range..

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.

Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#77 - 2013-09-24 19:46:27 UTC
As DZ says, nothing prohibits you from developing your own fiction, most of which is OOC anyway. If you, as a Capsuleer, had developed this groundbreaking technology, would you REALLY share the fact? I know I wouldn't....

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.

Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#78 - 2013-09-24 20:04:58 UTC
I think CONCORD frowns upon unlicensed clone tech *wags finger*

Sabik now, Sabik forever

Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#79 - 2013-09-25 02:55:06 UTC
I played a lot of Shadowrun back in the day, and it's one of those things where sometimes they simply say things don't work. Sometimes, it does make a lot of sense, though. Some thing are just incompatible.

For example, let's assume most of the capsuleer implants are meant to interface with a ship. That probably requires a lot of neural invasion. It's probably quite a rig. There may simply not be space to put a neural mapper and copier in there, so it has to be in an external package. DUST mercs don't get that treatment, since they only have to run their bodies. That leaves a lot of space to shove the mapper in their skull. In that sense, there may just not be enough space for both in the body.

That said, there's never been that much agreement on what precisely the implants need to be. I'm sure you can't be a DUST merc, but their bod implants might be transferable. You don't need your arms or legs to telepathically fly a ship. I think that's sort of where Isis was going at present. The headware might be incompatible, but you might get some of the other implants to make you stronger and faster than even a regular Capsuleer. That might not do us all much good, since capsuleers aren't often known for shooting rampages outside the pod (we've just got bigger guns on the boat). But in an RP sense, it might be feasible.

That also seems limiting to say it will never happen ever. Not in game terms, as obviously that's not going to happen in the near enough future to make it in the game. But I think Isis is talking about how the technology will probably eventually rise to the level that both will work simultaneously. Maybe the Jovians worked it out already.

At present, I'd say it's sort of in that holy-grail stage of weapons development. Everyone wants it, but the technology is just too big to fit both at the same time. Maybe the skull isn't big enough or the brain can't handle the strain of both at the same time. It's not impossible, but no one has developed it yet and aren't likely to develop it soon enough to matter for our purposes.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#80 - 2013-09-25 05:14:40 UTC
You're already an insanely wealthy immortal demi-god shooting volkswagon sized artillery shells at other people with your mind.

That isn't enough?

:P


PF boundaries aren't limitations, they provide structure and a lattice to grow your own ideas in a mutually-shared environment.

Sabik now, Sabik forever