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Terms of Service History and Clarification Dev Blog

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Author
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#21 - 2013-09-22 06:51:09 UTC
People hate it when CCP says "We will enforce this rule using our own discretion according to the circumstances"... mainly because it closes loopholes that they otherwise could take advantage of. Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#22 - 2013-09-22 10:50:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Lallante
Is this blog/thread an elaborate troll?

So what you are saying is all the ridiculous, over the top naysayers were right? The voices of moderation saying its just a few overzealous GMs and some poorly worded ToS changes were wrong?

What the **** has happened to CCP?


"Long standing, consistent rules"? Are you joking? Falsely representing your identity and that of your alts has been a HUGE part of both the scamming and meta games for over a decade. I can remember stealing whole alliance's assets by pretending to be the executors alt simply by changing my alts' bio. This has NEVER been an enforced rule.

Confidence tricks are basically the essence of all scamming that doesnt rely on simple mistakes. They have ALWAYS been a core part of what makes Eve Eve.


This is crazy. Literally nuts. I've been a vocal supporter since beta, with one notable period over GreedIsGood where I unsubscribed, but this, and the mentality it demonstrates, is close to pushing me out of the game.


what the ****.
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#23 - 2013-09-22 10:53:44 UTC
Tl;dr of this blog:

"Confidence Tricks are not permitted in Eve Online. In fact, they have never been permitted."

*Waves hand and ignores years of positive media coverage coming solely from this aspect of the metagame.
Amarrius Ibn Pontificus
Legion Air
#24 - 2013-09-22 18:43:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarrius Ibn Pontificus
Ranger 1 wrote:
People hate it when CCP says "We will enforce this rule using our own discretion according to the circumstances"... mainly because it closes loopholes that they otherwise could take advantage of. Smile


Mayhaps. But why does CCP chose to keep the loopholes in the first place? The solution to loopholes is addressing them and closing them, and not to arbitrarily enforce rules. And of course for that they may need people that really understand english both to write the rules and to enforce them. And that's what they should get done rather than drawing random names of rule breakers to decide who gets a ban on any given day.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-09-22 19:54:57 UTC
Lallante wrote:
Is this blog/thread an elaborate troll?

So what you are saying is all the ridiculous, over the top naysayers were right? The voices of moderation saying its just a few overzealous GMs and some poorly worded ToS changes were wrong?

What the **** has happened to CCP?


"Long standing, consistent rules"? Are you joking? Falsely representing your identity and that of your alts has been a HUGE part of both the scamming and meta games for over a decade. I can remember stealing whole alliance's assets by pretending to be the executors alt simply by changing my alts' bio. This has NEVER been an enforced rule.

Confidence tricks are basically the essence of all scamming that doesnt rely on simple mistakes. They have ALWAYS been a core part of what makes Eve Eve.


This is crazy. Literally nuts. I've been a vocal supporter since beta, with one notable period over GreedIsGood where I unsubscribed, but this, and the mentality it demonstrates, is close to pushing me out of the game.


what the ****.

Better hope none of the old members of the alliances you scammed decide to put in a petition now over your historical actions or you might find yourself banned before you get the choice to unsubscribe or not!

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#26 - 2013-09-22 22:01:11 UTC
Vladimir Vladimirovitch Putain wrote:
..."we have decided to take a deeper look at what we should and should not be enforcing.

This is where the problem lies. It bothers me to have CCP stating that there are some rules they set themselves, but then not all of which will be enforced. Should EVE players play russian roulette with the ToS?

All rules should be enforced. Which then leads to the 2nd part of the problem. Not everyone agrees that these should be the rules.

On a side note, the ToS also states "No player may use the character name of another player to falsely represent his or her identity". Short of hacking into someone's account, I fail to see how I could break this rule since the game doesn't allow for 2 characters to have the same name. But then CCP seems to interpret this rule not as a prohibition to use the same name, but as prohibition to use similar names.

For all this and a lot more, is why players are upset and arguing rightfuly so, that the ToS wording isn't clear. And either they're right, or CCP has a hard time intereting the rules they wrote themselves.

How about BOB The Great and B0B The Great?
Those are different names and you can see it if you look close. But its also what players do to impersonate others.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2013-09-23 00:31:02 UTC
We don't need any more clarification. The question is not about what the ToS says, it's about a fundamental shift in policy that goes against everything the game has been for the past ten years.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Laendra
Universalis Imperium
Goonswarm Federation
#28 - 2013-09-23 01:19:01 UTC
Future DevBlog: We have determined that it is unfair that some players are good at making ISK in EVE, and some players are not. Therefore, we are changing the ToS to re-state what we believe we have been doing all along, and that is that "7a. No player may accumulate in-game wealth at a rate disproportionate to other players. Any player being found to do so will be subject to disciplinary action, up to and including: removal of wealth in excess of the average wealth of all players; temporary or permanent banning; account deletion. This action will be enforced at our discretion, and you, as a paying customer, will have no recourse."
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#29 - 2013-09-23 08:14:56 UTC
Ah, so the documentation proves that the rules have always been hard on impersonation, but the players in general, myself included, have been unaware of this fact. The misconception has been enhancing itself, as victims have failed to realize they could petition their case, this leading to scammers believe their actions were within bounds.

One could blame an extensive misinformation campaign by the HTFU group, which themselves generally have an extremely hard time HTFU when being smacked in the face with the ToS and EULA.

Though, it is the GM group who should be much better at communication rules. Perhaps by highlighting for players the possibility to petition, when they spot cases that breaks the ToS, EULA, etc.

Anyhow, rules are not much good when they contradict the general perception on how things should be handled. In the current situation, it is probably better to adjust the ToS to the expectations of the players than the other way around.

But do not stop banning scammers that think themselves a little too smart. A failed scammer tears are still the best.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-09-23 09:16:37 UTC
Lallante wrote:
Is this blog/thread an elaborate troll?

So what you are saying is all the ridiculous, over the top naysayers were right? The voices of moderation saying its just a few overzealous GMs and some poorly worded ToS changes were wrong?

What the **** has happened to CCP?


"Long standing, consistent rules"? Are you joking? Falsely representing your identity and that of your alts has been a HUGE part of both the scamming and meta games for over a decade. I can remember stealing whole alliance's assets by pretending to be the executors alt simply by changing my alts' bio. This has NEVER been an enforced rule.

Confidence tricks are basically the essence of all scamming that doesnt rely on simple mistakes. They have ALWAYS been a core part of what makes Eve Eve.


This is crazy. Literally nuts. I've been a vocal supporter since beta, with one notable period over GreedIsGood where I unsubscribed, but this, and the mentality it demonstrates, is close to pushing me out of the game.


what the ****.



The purpose of impersonation rules is to protect the third party , not the mark.
Its not about making a scammers life harder but to prevent endless "I want my stuff back spam" to the affected third party.

A third party has no input or decision in the process but may have there game play negativelly affected , hence these rules.
Rules don't change just because you got away with stuff.

No one wants to stop scams or awoxing , just do it without affecting a third party's game experiance.
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#31 - 2013-09-23 09:41:23 UTC
Oh god, well done CCP for yet again bowing down to Goons pressure. Its becoming a fecking joke, everytime they whine you give in and change the game to their advantage. Its ridiculous, and tbh im sick of playing goonswarm on fecking line. perhaps its time to unsub, seriously now

yes im mad. and yes this is my main.

All my views are my own - never be afraid to post with your main, unless you're going to post some dumb shit

tiberiusric
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#32 - 2013-09-23 09:44:53 UTC  |  Edited by: tiberiusric
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
We don't need any more clarification. The question is not about what the ToS says, it's about a fundamental shift in policy that goes against everything the game has been for the past ten years.


It hasnt changed, and even if it did, who ARE YOU to tell CCP that they MUST change. Its not up to you at all. You dont want to play the game when things change GTFO the door is that way ---->.

Its about time CCP starting making some serious changes to this game before it ends up like the chinese server (which it pretty much is now)

All my views are my own - never be afraid to post with your main, unless you're going to post some dumb shit

Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-09-23 17:25:07 UTC
tiberiusric wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
We don't need any more clarification. The question is not about what the ToS says, it's about a fundamental shift in policy that goes against everything the game has been for the past ten years.


It hasnt changed, and even if it did, who ARE YOU to tell CCP that they MUST change. Its not up to you at all. You dont want to play the game when things change GTFO the door is that way ---->.

Its about time CCP starting making some serious changes to this game before it ends up like the chinese server (which it pretty much is now)

Of course, you're right, Eve has always been a game based on GMs imposing arbitrary and ill-thought out restrictions on the ways that players can interact with each other.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2013-09-24 08:43:11 UTC
tiberiusric wrote:
It hasnt changed, and even if it did, who ARE YOU to tell CCP that they MUST change. Its not up to you at all. You dont want to play the game when things change GTFO the door is that way ---->.

You think people play EVE because they like spaceships, or because they like playing a game with consequences and actual depth to its player interactions?

If you remove the latter, which is the direction CCP seems to be heading towards, then you remove the main allure of this game. And trust me, people will leave in droves. And most of them won't make threads about it. They'll just leave. And CCP will wonder where their subscribers went.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Aesynil
The Unit...
#35 - 2013-09-24 10:30:05 UTC
To break down the argument just a tad, I want to ask a basic question


Do you agree that it is acceptable for CCP to forbid people from impersonating through making similar sounding names? aka, CEO is Bobby Bob, so the person makes Bobbby Bob and says it's an alt. Address that as a yes or no, isolated of the rest of the argument




In my humble opinion, if your answer to that question is yes, then they pretty much by necessity have to take their current stance. So the CEO is Bobby Bob. You make Joe Joeington and claim to be Bobby Bob. Seems straightforward. Except maybe Bob has an alt named Joe too, and that's why you picked it. Or maybe another player in the corp does. Or maybe it's something he was talking about. Or any of a hundred different possibilities that suggest that name was picked with the specific purpose of scamming that individual. Maybe you pick a certain character because you KNOW it is similar to the other directors of the alliance, so you think it will be accepted. Maybe it was similar to the name of the CEO from two years ago. Maybe an old player recently claimed they'd be making an alt, and you overheard that and 'made it first.'

The long and short of it is, investigating that would take TOO LONG for CCP, and makes a blanket statement far, far more effective. It's not worth the hassle.



Now, if you said no...Well, that's a different argument.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2013-09-24 11:45:39 UTC
I said no.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#37 - 2013-09-24 13:23:57 UTC
tiberiusric wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
We don't need any more clarification. The question is not about what the ToS says, it's about a fundamental shift in policy that goes against everything the game has been for the past ten years.


It hasnt changed, and even if it did, who ARE YOU to tell CCP that they MUST change. Its not up to you at all. You dont want to play the game when things change GTFO the door is that way ---->.

Its about time CCP starting making some serious changes to this game before it ends up like the chinese server (which it pretty much is now)


And how exactly do these changes stop TQ "before it ends up like the chinese server"?

Scamming and impersonation are destabilising, and are in fact one of the few ways that individuals and small groups can effectively combat large powerful ones.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

NinjaTurtle
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2013-09-25 17:10:28 UTC  |  Edited by: NinjaTurtle
Confirming that ccp's attempts to turn eve into some version of hello kitty in space not only grossly pathetic but extremely indicative of the utter lack of connection with what the player base expects. If you want to make the next world of warcraft expansion then go work for blizzard. Then again maybe we shouldnt give any more devs the idea to leave, seems like they do already.
Laendra
Universalis Imperium
Goonswarm Federation
#39 - 2013-09-25 23:22:03 UTC
Aesynil wrote:
To break down the argument just a tad, I want to ask a basic question


Do you agree that it is acceptable for CCP to forbid people from impersonating through making similar sounding names? aka, CEO is Bobby Bob, so the person makes Bobbby Bob and says it's an alt. Address that as a yes or no, isolated of the rest of the argument




In my humble opinion, if your answer to that question is yes, then they pretty much by necessity have to take their current stance. So the CEO is Bobby Bob. You make Joe Joeington and claim to be Bobby Bob. Seems straightforward. Except maybe Bob has an alt named Joe too, and that's why you picked it. Or maybe another player in the corp does. Or maybe it's something he was talking about. Or any of a hundred different possibilities that suggest that name was picked with the specific purpose of scamming that individual. Maybe you pick a certain character because you KNOW it is similar to the other directors of the alliance, so you think it will be accepted. Maybe it was similar to the name of the CEO from two years ago. Maybe an old player recently claimed they'd be making an alt, and you overheard that and 'made it first.'

The long and short of it is, investigating that would take TOO LONG for CCP, and makes a blanket statement far, far more effective. It's not worth the hassle.



Now, if you said no...Well, that's a different argument.


The answer is an Emphatic NO. I have never, in the 10 years I've been playing EVE as the CEO of one or more corporations, ever, ever, ever accepted an alt of a person without positive confirmation from that person that the alt is, indeed, theirs. Failure to do that basic check should never be trumped by CCP saying "Oh, sorry, we can't cure stupid, but we can cure the symptoms" Quit making EASY MODE for EVE.
Laendra
Universalis Imperium
Goonswarm Federation
#40 - 2013-09-25 23:26:37 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

And how exactly do these changes stop TQ "before it ends up like the chinese server"?

Scamming and impersonation are destabilising, and are in fact one of the few ways that individuals and small groups can effectively combat large powerful ones.


Emphasis mine

WHOA, what the ****? How the hell did you get into the CSM? Scamming has ALWAYS been a part of EVE. CCP has dumbed it down tremendously over the years, but it has never, ever, been against the rules to trade someone an assembled Omen and tell them that it was actually an Apocalypse(, et.al.)

Feel free to resign your position on the CSM and quit EVE...

WoW is => that way

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