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More immunity for Incursion Runners Required.

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Lucas Quaan
DEMONS OF THE HIDDEN MIST
TRUTH. HONOUR. LIGHT.
#141 - 2011-11-15 16:17:08 UTC
Ammzi wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
mkint wrote:
You're aware that if you run nullsec incursion you'd make almost double what the highsecers do?


Hai anonymous forum alt.

Firstly, you are wrong. You're wrong because you haven't a clue what you're talking about, forum alt. You barely break 100mil per hour in lowsec / nullsec Incursions, if you are lucky, for two reasons:

1) You fly cost effective fits. No faction fit Nightmares. That, alone, makes up for nearly the entire difference in reward. Reward per site is irrelevant if you run fewer sites per hour.
2) There will be significant downtime from your site running whilst you are "interrupted"
3) Due to no one else doing them either, the influence bar stays pegged at 100% Sansha penalties. This makes a lot of the Blitz techniques invalid, and ergo the ISK/hr is actually not that awesome at all.

Of course. People running into low/null en masse to do PVE is a giant "come at me bro" magnet, so the risk is pretty damn high.

So, frankly, L2Eve


Hi non anonymous, but ignorant nullsec bear.
So you're basically saying because of low interest/not enough organizational effort from nullbears incursions can't be run effectively in non-highsec space?
And this is highsec's fault... we are the ones to blame for your failure at organizing yourself?

Don't be a fool. Every single mother-loving incursion in goon space was farmed to death, revived and then farmed to death again.
Just because other nullsec alliances can't get off their high horses to set up a 8 t2 HAC + 2 logi fleet doesn't mean it's highsec's fault.
Not to count lowsec incursions which are ruled by goons and friends.

Of course incursions are run in 0.0 and low-sec, that's not the point. What we are saying is that they shouldn't be in high-sec at all or at least have the payouts or occurrence lowered because they skew the risk/reward balance. I understand you disagree on this and that's fine, but it doesn't make the argument any less valid.

You are also wrong about low-sec incursions. We had a brief period where some people in my alliance had a go at running them and I scouted out some of the goon/test activities. It would be perfectly viable to bring a 10 man gang of your own and contest the systems in question, adding a little risk to the rewards, and since the area will be cyno jammed, there is no risk of being hot-dropped either. In other words a perfect small gang incentive.

Quote:
Incursions in highsec are supposed to outcompete missions and other solo activities.
Incursions in highsec are supposed to be able to earn you a load of isk.

CCP Soundwave wrote:
"We purposely made this very rewarding. We didn't want a situation where agent missions f.x. were out competing this feature.
We did raise the bar relatively high, it is possible to earn a load of isk with this, but that was also the intention when we wrote the reward list. "

Yeah, like this would be the first time this year CCP said something dumb and changed their mind once we called them on it. That, at least, is one change we can all believe in.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#142 - 2011-11-15 16:20:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Ammzi
@ Khanh'rhh

I thought cost effective meant HACS .. seriously it's only 200 m.
If you fly t1 in an incursion, regardless highsec or nullsec you should expect less reward because of less risk.
But you wouldn't know anything about this since you don't know live in null where I have continues contact with them and those who do incursions there.

It is the PVE that pay out the most because it is the largest PVE feature.
Where else do you form up fleets of 20-40-80 pilots to do PVE? Wormholes can be done with 10 pilots ... even C6.

No, you look at this the wrong way.
You earn MORE in nullsec incursions in comparison to highsec incursions if you put in the same time.

1 hour in nullsec will net you more than 1 hour in highsec. There's less competition there so you can pick and choose your sites and optimize your fleet to earn 15 m every 3 min. netting out to a 300 million isk an hour.

2-4 hours in highsec will earn you the same of what you could earn in nullsec.

The only reason you earn more isk in highsec is because you spend more time there.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#143 - 2011-11-15 18:10:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
Ammzi wrote:
1 hour in nullsec will net you more than 1 hour in highsec. There's less competition there so you can pick and choose your sites and optimize your fleet to earn 15 m every 3 min. netting out to a 300 million isk an hour.

You live in a ******* fantasy land, seriously.

You're pulling figures out of your ass to support an argument this is flip flapping all over the place, to where it is convenient for you. First I am an "ignorant null bear" and then you claim some kind of "null bear hotline" to generate numbers from thin air. A T2 fit HAC gang is less efficient than a faction fit "shiney" pirate BS fleet. One you can sensibly use in hostile space, the other you cannot.

EVEN IF your figures were true, earning a lot of ISK in nullsec / lowsec / wormholes has been possible for a long, long time. It has largely been ignored by the playerbase on large, because they are too risk adverse to go do it. Instead, their risk-adverse nature has been penalised by their best PVE income source being level 4 missions, a large part of the rewards of which, were tied to an ISK sink.

100+mil an hour in highsec of PURE ISK IS NEW and ergo IS a change in the risk / reward balance.

Please. Come back with some basic logic.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

proxwar
Doomheim
#144 - 2011-11-15 18:17:33 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:


100+mil an hour in highsec of PURE ISK IS NEW and ergo IS a change in the risk / reward balance.



Oh come on, can you all cut us high sec incursion bears a little slack please?

The Risk Vs Reward is very much alive in high sec incursions.

I mean, we risk multi billion isk ships getting popped by those bad sansha types for over 12hr a day in some cases, all that risk just to earn a paltry 1b per day.

Now thats riskay. Blink
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#145 - 2011-11-15 18:31:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Ammzi
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Ammzi wrote:
1 hour in nullsec will net you more than 1 hour in highsec. There's less competition there so you can pick and choose your sites and optimize your fleet to earn 15 m every 3 min. netting out to a 300 million isk an hour.

You live in a ******* fantasy land, seriously.

You're pulling figures out of your ass to support an argument this is flip flapping all over the place, to where it is convenient for you. First I am an "ignorant null bear" and then you claim some kind of "null bear hotline" to generate numbers from thin air. A T2 fit HAC gang is less efficient than a faction fit "shiney" pirate BS fleet. One you can sensibly use in hostile space, the other you cannot.

EVEN IF your figures were true, earning a lot of ISK in nullsec / lowsec / wormholes has been possible for a long, long time. It has largely been ignored by the playerbase on large, because they are too risk adverse to go do it. Instead, their risk-adverse nature has been penalised by their best PVE income source being level 4 missions, a large part of the rewards of which, were tied to an ISK sink.

100+mil an hour in highsec of PURE ISK IS NEW and ergo IS a change in the risk / reward balance.

Please. Come back with some basic logic.


Should you be able to earn more isk in highsec than in nullsec? Yes.
Because it depends on what you're doing.
What 1 lone pilot is doing in nullsec shouldn't necessary earn him more isk than what 10 pilots are earning each together in an incursion fleet.

a T2 fit HAC gang is not necessarily better than a faction fit shiney pirate BS fleet. That is where your line of thinking is wrong. A t2 fit HAC gang will reap through NCO's like warm butter through a knife.

(I know about the analogy...)

And I am most certainly not pulling numbers out of my bottox, sir.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#146 - 2011-11-15 18:40:27 UTC
Pointless QQ and throwing toys out of the pram aside, there's one thing in here that should be changed.

Jammers and other ECM effects should dissipate as soon as the ship projecting them is destroyed, not just as a PvE change but a change in general.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#147 - 2011-11-15 18:47:59 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Pointless QQ and throwing toys out of the pram aside, there's one thing in here that should be changed.

Jammers and other ECM effects should dissipate as soon as the ship projecting them is destroyed, not just as a PvE change but a change in general.


Already is like this in PVE (incursions)
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#148 - 2011-11-15 18:50:19 UTC
Ammzi wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Pointless QQ and throwing toys out of the pram aside, there's one thing in here that should be changed.

Jammers and other ECM effects should dissipate as soon as the ship projecting them is destroyed, not just as a PvE change but a change in general.


Already is like this in PVE (incursions)


E man Industries wrote:
I find it intresting that trakling links, remote ECM, target painters, remote repairs, remote sensor boosting, and even sensor damping all stop working when the ship performing the action warps out or is destroyed.

Only jamming persists after the ship has warped off or is destroyed.



I wasn't referring to rat jams, I referred to player jams. But I wouldn't change this purely because of incursion griefers.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#149 - 2011-11-15 19:00:11 UTC
The lore is there to explain jamming. Different modules different effects at different times.
Whether CCP wants to change it is their choice.

I just don't like the inconsistency. Why does PVE jam wear off when the NPC dies and not PVP jams? it's not like they are using different modules.
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#150 - 2011-11-15 20:18:29 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Ammzi wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Pointless QQ and throwing toys out of the pram aside, there's one thing in here that should be changed.

Jammers and other ECM effects should dissipate as soon as the ship projecting them is destroyed, not just as a PvE change but a change in general.


Already is like this in PVE (incursions)


E man Industries wrote:
I find it intresting that trakling links, remote ECM, target painters, remote repairs, remote sensor boosting, and even sensor damping all stop working when the ship performing the action warps out or is destroyed.

Only jamming persists after the ship has warped off or is destroyed.



I wasn't referring to rat jams, I referred to player jams. But I wouldn't change this purely because of incursion griefers.

Yeah I agree entirely to this.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#151 - 2011-11-15 20:27:43 UTC
Jovan Geldon wrote:
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
any whining about broken isk faucet mechanics is kind of foolish given the ability and availability for anyone to get in on these fleets even with a few month old character and earn those uber iskies


I bolded the part where you were being an idiot. Just because anyone can do it, doesn't mean it isn't broken/imbalanced/overpowered/whatever.

So Im an idiot simply because Im using and enjoying a new CCP mechanic that you are saying is overpowered? Im just curious then if you say this about ALL of the new features that come out every patch. Would I have been stupid to have run RPs years ago and gotten a t2 bpo for it? Or how about buying up a few bpos when they are launched and making out fat in the wallet by reselling them?

You dont like how theres too much isk in the system. Sounds like your butthurt about your lil wallet becoming worthless due to inflation. Get real thats how the RL works. The govt, in this case CCP, can inject a stimulus package anytime it wants to into the economy. They have via incursions. Either get on the train or get off and make your isk elsewhere. Stop being so butthurt and calling people names over the internet like a big man. Only way to combat inflation is to earn more isk at a rate greater than the inflationary pressures.

Quote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
"We purposely made this very rewarding. We didn't want a situation where agent missions f.x. were out competing this feature.
We did raise the bar relatively high, it is possible to earn a load of isk with this, but that was also the intention when we wrote the reward list. "


Just like you want to say about your mechanics... working as intended.Twisted

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#152 - 2011-11-15 20:34:04 UTC
Gonzo TheGreat wrote:
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
Not to rain on the incursion wreckers parade but if jams last beyond ship destruction thats a broken mechanic and should and Im sure will be fixed soon enough.

As for the rest of it a fleet of 10 people in a WH can make the same amount of isk. A fleet of 10 can run the major plexs in 0.0 that will pay out just as much..


Hai , I can haz CONCORD in my Wormhole?

Seriously, if you are comparing the incursions in HS with activities in a Wormhole or Null and saying it just pays as much, then there is something wrong in here :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61hR4_JlbBo <-- For relevance

If you cant keep up your doing it wrong. You butthurt you cant earn mega isk in eve? Afraid your wallet is going the way of the dodo bird? Inflation eating you in game as much as it is in RL? Dont be butthurt. Figure out a way to make more isk.


When Eve started making a mil isk per hour wouldve been staggering to the majority of Eve. Ive seen the wallets and per hour income grow since I got in game. This is nothing new. This is the way life and games go. Get used to it or unsub....btw can I haz your stuffz?Twisted

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
Eru GoEller
State War Academy
Caldari State
#153 - 2011-11-15 21:06:21 UTC
Jovan Geldon wrote:
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
any whining about broken isk faucet mechanics is kind of foolish given the ability and availability for anyone to get in on these fleets even with a few month old character and earn those uber iskies


I bolded the part where you were being an idiot. Just because anyone can do it, doesn't mean it isn't broken/imbalanced/overpowered/whatever.


So what is stopping you from forming a fleet and kill the MOM when it spawns. Or is that to much work?
Jovan Geldon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#154 - 2011-11-15 21:39:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Jovan Geldon
Eru GoEller wrote:
Jovan Geldon wrote:
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
*snip*
*snip*


So what is stopping you from forming a fleet and kill the MOM when it spawns. Or is that to much work?


Nothing.

What exactly was the point you were trying to make here?
Adrenalinemax
Lap Dancers
Brothers of Tangra
#155 - 2011-11-15 21:49:38 UTC
Currently on SiSi if you get your ship blown up by Concord, there is no insurance payout. If that makes it to TQ that would be a pretty big game changer for this.

Sending in 3-4 waves of BB to kill a single faction BS would still be worth it for the ISK ratio, but only if some shiny stuff dropped, if they start fitting T2 to those shiny BS, you have to rely strictly on tears which won't keep you in new BB's.


That being said, I think this is one of the best parts of EvE, for every capsular that thinks they are safe, there are 5 guys trying to figure out how to blow them up.
Eru GoEller
State War Academy
Caldari State
#156 - 2011-11-15 21:59:04 UTC
Jovan Geldon wrote:
Eru GoEller wrote:
Jovan Geldon wrote:
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
*snip*
*snip*


So what is stopping you from forming a fleet and kill the MOM when it spawns. Or is that to much work?


Nothing.

What exactly was the point you were trying to make here?

No Incursions in hi-sec no ISK gained either.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#157 - 2011-11-15 22:00:57 UTC
Desert Ice78 wrote:
I demand that all "wana-be" hi-sec pvper bears be forced to actually pvp, as in shoot those who are only too happy and able to shoot back, rather then the current "shoot everyone as long as they can't shoot back" that passes for pvp in hi-sec.



I demand that if you fit guns on a ship, or hang out with people who have guns on a ship, you be ready to use them, any time, anywhere.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Lurifax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#158 - 2011-11-15 22:09:32 UTC
The high sec incursions is the atm the best way to make isk.

100mil pr hour with basicly 0 risk.
A lot of 0.0 ppl have alts there or go there since it is the best isk/time

A corpy of mine wrote about it in his blog:
http://eveblog.dsan.dk/?p=122

Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#159 - 2011-11-15 22:41:31 UTC
Lurifax wrote:
The high sec incursions is the atm the best way to make isk.

100mil pr hour with basicly 0 risk.
A lot of 0.0 ppl have alts there or go there since it is the best isk/time

A corpy of mine wrote about it in his blog:
http://eveblog.dsan.dk/?p=122



Worst thing is. That wallet picture is of highsec rewards, not nullsec.

Quote:
And I predict, that people will leave 0.0 corps and alliances, to go back to highsec and make isk.
So I encourage, corp and alliance guidlines or methods; to organzie, Legislate, control, manage or prevent pilots running incursions in highsec.


Wow ... really? Proof of douchebaggery in nullsec.
Gonzo TheGreat
Donuttown
#160 - 2011-11-15 23:09:16 UTC
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
Gonzo TheGreat wrote:
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
Not to rain on the incursion wreckers parade but if jams last beyond ship destruction thats a broken mechanic and should and Im sure will be fixed soon enough.

As for the rest of it a fleet of 10 people in a WH can make the same amount of isk. A fleet of 10 can run the major plexs in 0.0 that will pay out just as much..


Hai , I can haz CONCORD in my Wormhole?

Seriously, if you are comparing the incursions in HS with activities in a Wormhole or Null and saying it just pays as much, then there is something wrong in here :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61hR4_JlbBo <-- For relevance

If you cant keep up your doing it wrong. You butthurt you cant earn mega isk in eve? Afraid your wallet is going the way of the dodo bird? Inflation eating you in game as much as it is in RL? Dont be butthurt. Figure out a way to make more isk.


When Eve started making a mil isk per hour wouldve been staggering to the majority of Eve. Ive seen the wallets and per hour income grow since I got in game. This is nothing new. This is the way life and games go. Get used to it or unsub....btw can I haz your stuffz?Twisted



FYI this whole thread and the whining about jams persisting after ship's death is about "Kill It With Fire" suicide ganking you highsec carebears :) So don't try to turn it around. Go Go cry to CCP about the Jams :D

Good luck with writing random junk, like unsub and etc when none of this was talked by me, go ahead and re-read what I wrote about the comparison. You cannot simply say oh a 10 man fleet can make the same in a WH so it's ok (lawlz).