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Why are people so averse to risk taking?
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Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#81 - 2013-09-23 15:41:25 UTC
Lexar Mundi wrote:

You have very selective reading don't you. I explain why they do it, and that i understand why they do it under what you quoted


And it was still wrong lol. Smart gameplay still isn't risk aversion. You start from a prejudiced point of view (your dislike of alts) and all that to color you thoughts, when in reality what you're saying is nothing more than a continuation of the "solo=pvp is dead" fallacy that launched at damn near the same time EVE did in 2003.....

Having more than one account isn't magically pay to win, especially given that dual (or more) boxing is and will always be less efficient than individual (alive and thinking) people playing individual ships (even with the dreaded isboxer). you seem to imagine some maghical time where what's happening now didn't happen in the past. Sorry, but it's not true, people have been ganging up on other people since the 1st cave man became smart enough to figure out that dying sucks and winning rocks.

The real underlying issue is that "solo" pvprs tend to not understand that other people are different from them and thus have "fun" in different ways. They can't understand that other people aren't of the 1v1 "pugalist" mind set with this burning need to swing their space-peen at others in a quest for imaginary spaceship dominance lol.

No, those other guys aren't trying to display "skill", they are trying to make pretty explosions on a computer screen, and pretending that those guys are somehow lame or dumb for playing a game smartly (smart = not dying), is a fairly dumb and self serving idea.
Lexar Mundi
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#82 - 2013-09-23 16:01:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexar Mundi
Jenn aSide wrote:
Lexar Mundi wrote:

You have very selective reading don't you. I explain why they do it, and that i understand why they do it under what you quoted


And it was still wrong lol. Smart gameplay still isn't risk aversion. You start from a prejudiced point of view (your dislike of alts) and all that to color you thoughts, when in reality what you're saying is nothing more than a continuation of the "solo=pvp is dead" fallacy that launched at damn near the same time EVE did in 2003.....

Having more than one account isn't magically pay to win, especially given that dual (or more) boxing is and will always be less efficient than individual (alive and thinking) people playing individual ships (even with the dreaded isboxer). you seem to imagine some maghical time where what's happening now didn't happen in the past. Sorry, but it's not true, people have been ganging up on other people since the 1st cave man became smart enough to figure out that dying sucks and winning rocks.

The real underlying issue is that "solo" pvprs tend to not understand that other people are different from them and thus have "fun" in different ways. They can't understand that other people aren't of the 1v1 "pugalist" mind set with this burning need to swing their space-peen at others in a quest for imaginary spaceship dominance lol.

No, those other guys aren't trying to display "skill", they are trying to make pretty explosions on a computer screen, and pretending that those guys are somehow lame or dumb for playing a game smartly (smart = not dying), is a fairly dumb and self serving idea.

You still have to admit having more than one account gives people an advantage. Otherwise why would we do it? I myself have 3 accounts because it gives me an advantage in game. Think of it this way. If people could buy a mod with real money and only with real money to warn them when people jumped in and out of their wormhole, or let you know what is on the other side of a gate. People would be outraged and burning Jita again. You can do that just by buying more accounts. Also if i use these accounts to avoid people, I would be risk adverse. (Which I do just like everyone else)

~edit~
By the way the definition of "Risk averse" is: "a person when faced with two or more options with a similar expected outcome, but different risks, will choose the option with lower risk." Which sounds like a pretty smart person to me. Everyone who chooses to do lower risk option is risk averse.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#83 - 2013-09-23 16:49:46 UTC
Lexar Mundi wrote:

You still have to admit having more than one account gives people an advantage. Otherwise why would we do it? I myself have 3 accounts because it gives me an advantage in game.


Using my mach instead of my Maelstrom gives me an advantage in lvl 4 missions. Bringing friends (real or imaginary) to a fight gives me an advantage. The most common tactic used in the history of games and conflict is seeking an advantage.

Their is nothing wrong with having an advantage. Unfair Advantage is another thing. Using alts or bringing friends is not an unfair advantage in a game about conflict, as any other player can do the exact same thing easily enough.


Quote:

Think of it this way. If people could buy a mod with real money and only with real money to warn them when people jumped in and out of their wormhole, or let you know what is on the other side of a gate. People would be outraged and burning Jita again. You can do that just by buying more accounts. Also if i use these accounts to avoid people, I would be risk adverse. (Which I do just like everyone else)


I understand that, but again, it's not an unfair advantage because anyone can do that. Alts give players a measure of independence, but it's still less efficient than having a real person scout for you because that alt means splitting attention whereas a friend doing the same job means you can concentrate fully on your gameplay. A "mod" doing the same thing is something I'd consider an unfair advantage.
Lexar Mundi
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#84 - 2013-09-23 17:04:49 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

A "mod" doing the same thing is something I'd consider an unfair advantage.

How so if it's doing the same thing?
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#85 - 2013-09-23 17:14:07 UTC
Lexar Mundi wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

A "mod" doing the same thing is something I'd consider an unfair advantage.

How so if it's doing the same thing?


Because it's automation but in a different way as something like ISBoxer. Isboxer is just repeating the moves you make, but a mod that warns you that someone is coming without you doing anything is a supremely unfair advantage.

That's why that nifty little mod someone made that beeps at you when someone enters local in nullsec a few years ago was deemed agains the rules by CCP a few years back. An alt in the next system still means you have to be looking at the screen, that beeping mod means you could go completely afk and still be warned of someone entering system. It was great for an individual playe,r but terribly bad for the game.
Lexar Mundi
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#86 - 2013-09-23 17:29:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexar Mundi
Jenn aSide wrote:
Lexar Mundi wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

A "mod" doing the same thing is something I'd consider an unfair advantage.

How so if it's doing the same thing?


Because it's automation but in a different way as something like ISBoxer. Isboxer is just repeating the moves you make, but a mod that warns you that someone is coming without you doing anything is a supremely unfair advantage.

That's why that nifty little mod someone made that beeps at you when someone enters local in nullsec a few years ago was deemed agains the rules by CCP a few years back. An alt in the next system still means you have to be looking at the screen, that beeping mod means you could go completely afk and still be warned of someone entering system. It was great for an individual playe,r but terribly bad for the game.

Just sit on a gate or a wormhole with alts and listen for a gate/wormhole activation. That is your beep. You don't have to look at your other alts to hear sound. In wormholes yes another wormhole can spawn, but in nul sec having one or more alt does the same exact thing a banned player mod does.

~edit~
on the other hand, I think were starting to get off topic.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#87 - 2013-09-23 17:48:26 UTC
Lexar Mundi wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Lexar Mundi wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

A "mod" doing the same thing is something I'd consider an unfair advantage.

How so if it's doing the same thing?


Because it's automation but in a different way as something like ISBoxer. Isboxer is just repeating the moves you make, but a mod that warns you that someone is coming without you doing anything is a supremely unfair advantage.

That's why that nifty little mod someone made that beeps at you when someone enters local in nullsec a few years ago was deemed agains the rules by CCP a few years back. An alt in the next system still means you have to be looking at the screen, that beeping mod means you could go completely afk and still be warned of someone entering system. It was great for an individual playe,r but terribly bad for the game.

Just sit on a gate or a wormhole with alts and listen for a gate/wormhole activation. That is your beep. You don't have to look at your other alts to hear sound. In wormholes yes another wormhole can spawn, but in nul sec having one or more alt does the same exact thing a banned player mod does.

~edit~
on the other hand, I think were starting to get off topic.


1st of all, everyone knows that EVE does not have sounds.

But 2nd, you're doing exactly as i said. You don't like the idea behind alts, so anyhtiong having to do with alt characters and accoutns is somehow a bad advantage. I can't speak for none but myself, but I just don't think it is. Pay to win means paying money to get.

You said it yourself. A mod works everywhere, "listening for the sounds" only works in K-space. That makes listening for the sounds not an unfair advantage.

If paying real money for something that gives you an advantage in a game is "pay to win" then all those guys paying 15 bucks a month for their one account are "paying to win" because having a character in EVE is way more of an advantage than having no characters in EVE lol.

Pay to win means people spending money to get super-advantages that people who are just playing can't get. Pay to win isn't even possible in EVE in the same way it's possible in a true free to play game, there is nothing at all stopping an EVe player from generating and using in-game money to buy plex to acquire a new account.

The guy who used real money to buy a toon and a titan off Ebay is still going to die in a huge fireball and THEN get banned lol.
Anomaly One
Doomheim
#88 - 2013-09-23 18:33:36 UTC
Quote:
1st of all, everyone knows that EVE does not have sounds.

But 2nd, you're doing exactly as i said. You don't like the idea behind alts, so anyhtiong having to do with alt characters and accoutns is somehow a bad advantage. I can't speak for none but myself, but I just don't think it is. Pay to win means paying money to get.

You said it yourself. A mod works everywhere, "listening for the sounds" only works in K-space. That makes listening for the sounds not an unfair advantage.

If paying real money for something that gives you an advantage in a game is "pay to win" then all those guys paying 15 bucks a month for their one account are "paying to win" because having a character in EVE is way more of an advantage than having no characters in EVE lol.

Pay to win means people spending money to get super-advantages that people who are just playing can't get. Pay to win isn't even possible in EVE in the same way it's possible in a true free to play game, there is nothing at all stopping an EVe player from generating and using in-game money to buy plex to acquire a new account.

The guy who used real money to buy a toon and a titan off Ebay is still going to die in a huge fireball and THEN get banned lol.


just want to clarify one thing.

nice hyperbole that's like saying I win in eve vs someone who doesn't have a computer.. talking basic advantages here meaning 1 account/ 1 character and you play, now you're gonna tell me in small gang/solo pvp that matters alot but no one cares about that.. in fleets not much and that's what pvp is all about no one really cares about 2-3 ship fights/solo fights.. kinda sad

if by your definition pay to win =spending money to get advantages that others can't get, then having multiple accounts isn't paying with real life money to get an advantage? or buying plex vs someone who has to make isk ingame isn't an advantage ?
While the first person can do whatever he wants in eve the other has to make ISK to start doing what he wants in this situation pvp/building pos/w/e

Having multiple accounts gives you an insane amount of advantages, if one person is playing with 1 account/character he has to make his isk and handle everything on that single one meaning if he's a pirate he doesn't have a "carebear" account (like 90% of the "pirates" in low sec) to generate his isk or buying plex to support his piracy.. so the other person can just skill up everything he wants on each character while the solo account can't do that. So if I wanted to fly every kind of ship I would have to cross-train on a single account or have a multitdue of accounts that each does a job..

This all doesn't matter because it's a sandbox and there is no end-game, you can just "ignore" the alts and multiboxers and stay away from solo and small gang pvp.. if you couldn't ignore the alts then it would be a bigger issue..


Quote:
Because it's automation but in a different way as something like ISBoxer. Isboxer is just repeating the moves you make, but a mod that warns you that someone is coming without you doing anything is a supremely unfair advantage.

That's why that nifty little mod someone made that beeps at you when someone enters local in nullsec a few years ago was deemed agains the rules by CCP a few years back. An alt in the next system still means you have to be looking at the screen,


And ISBoxer effectively eliminates you having to look at the screen at 100% and clicking each button and that in your definition that you provided doesn't equal the same thing as that automated mod

Not against anything, i've played tons of games and know that things like this will never change, just would like to think what would eve players do if they were limited to 1 single account/character, i'm betting my money that high sec would get a lot more busy ;)
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#89 - 2013-09-23 18:38:33 UTC
Complains about risk aversion in a cloaky-nullified-warp core stabbed proteus.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#90 - 2013-09-23 18:39:55 UTC
Isboxer, recommended by multiboxing pros like Lyris Nairn

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#91 - 2013-09-23 19:00:10 UTC
Anomaly One wrote:

just want to clarify one thing.

nice hyperbole that's like saying I win in eve vs someone who doesn't have a computer.. talking basic advantages here meaning 1 account/ 1 character and you play, now you're gonna tell me in small gang/solo pvp that matters alot but no one cares about that.. in fleets not much and that's what pvp is all about no one really cares about 2-3 ship fights/solo fights.. kinda sad

if by your definition pay to win =spending money to get advantages that others can't get, then having multiple accounts isn't paying with real life money to get an advantage? or buying plex vs someone who has to make isk ingame isn't an advantage ?
While the first person can do whatever he wants in eve the other has to make ISK to start doing what he wants in this situation pvp/building pos/w/e

Having multiple accounts gives you an insane amount of advantages, if one person is playing with 1 account/character he has to make his isk and handle everything on that single one meaning if he's a pirate he doesn't have a "carebear" account (like 90% of the "pirates" in low sec) to generate his isk or buying plex to support his piracy.. so the other person can just skill up everything he wants on each character while the solo account can't do that. So if I wanted to fly every kind of ship I would have to cross-train on a single account or have a multitdue of accounts that each does a job..

This all doesn't matter because it's a sandbox and there is no end-game, you can just "ignore" the alts and multiboxers and stay away from solo and small gang pvp.. if you couldn't ignore the alts then it would be a bigger issue..


The above is just nonsense. Where did I say multiple accounts weren't an advantage?

I said they weren't an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE (caps so you can see it), everyone can do that. That people choose to constrain themselves to one account when making isk is so easy that a plex is just a few hours doing PVE stuff is irrelevant.

And yet plenty of people have only one account and get along just fine. I did for the 1st year and a half of my eve life.


Quote:

And ISBoxer effectively eliminates you having to look at the screen at 100% and clicking each button and that in your definition that you provided doesn't equal the same thing as that automated mod

I
I don't see it that way, isboxer is just streamlining the process, it's no different than what that guy with all the tapped up mice was doing in that famous youtube video. And nothing is stopping anyone from using isboxer except personal choice. I don't use it because i find it tedious, but ccp says it's ok so it's ok.

Quote:

Not against anything, i've played tons of games and know that things like this will never change, just would like to think what would eve players do if they were limited to 1 single account/character, i'm betting my money that high sec would get a lot more busy ;)


It would, because EVE can be tedious and overly time consuming without alts. I use mine to carry stuff and move stuff and so I don't have to move my "mains" away from other things like pvp.


[/quote]
Karrl Tian
Doomheim
#92 - 2013-09-23 19:31:10 UTC
Diomedes Calypso wrote:
Hunting


The analogy is Hunting.


People get up at 3 in the morning, drive hudreds of miles including dozens of miles on long (timewise) dirt roads.... hike a ways in carrying their guns and some crap,


.. along the way they're looking for signs.. they use care and strategy in selecting a spot.

They need to anticipate where their pray might be even before they leave the car... then need to look at signs that the deer had used a route recently (wrecks ? lol) . Then, they might attacth some expensive seat device up the trunk of a tree.. climb up , then sit there for two hours until a deer comes along.

In a moment of adrenalaine, there is some care necessary. The need to be sure not to Scare the dear... lots of skill in staying steady. They need to make a clean deliberate move and make the first shot count before the deer is spooked.


Lots of skill.. in terms of knowledge and selection and a fair amount of skill needed to get off that clean shot gracefully.

No Fight needed.


No fight needed for the activity to be an activity enjoyed for hundreds of years with guns... thousanands with arrows etc (prey might have varried)

Whole cultures are built around the sport. Some people hate it but alll that matters is that some people love something for it to have merit to some people. Other's opinions do not alter the merit of the activity for others.. and honestly held with priorities diffferent than those that do not like the idea.



If only Bambi's mom had been watching local....
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#93 - 2013-09-23 20:56:51 UTC
Maybe it was a afk cloaker hunter

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Lexar Mundi
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#94 - 2013-09-23 22:30:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexar Mundi
Jenn aSide wrote:
The above is just nonsense. Where did I say multiple accounts weren't an advantage?

I said they weren't an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE (caps so you can see it), everyone can do that. That people choose to constrain themselves to one account when making isk is so easy that a plex is just a few hours doing PVE stuff is irrelevant.

If you are going to play that card, when did I ever say it was an unfair advantage?

Jenn aSide wrote:
You said it yourself. A mod works everywhere, "listening for the sounds" only works in K-space. That makes listening for the sounds not an unfair advantage.


To reiterate what i said in a previous post listening for sounds works not just in K-space on a gate, it works in W -space on a wormhole as well. Yes there is a chance another wormhole can spawn, but depending on what the person is doing in W-space you are done before another wormhole spawns. That mod however... from what you said only worked in K-space, because it read local. So alts work better than the player mod you brought up.

Jenn aSide wrote:
If paying real money for something that gives you an advantage in a game is "pay to win" then all those guys paying 15 bucks a month for their one account are "paying to win" because having a character in EVE is way more of an advantage than having no characters in EVE lol.
You almost get it, but not quite.

It's like this, think if my alt was a $15 drone you deploy from a ship. I can pay for the game and a sub to a game for $15 a month. For another $15 a month I can pay for this super cool "drone" (an alt account) that makes a noise (Gate fire or wormhole activation) when someone jumps through a gate, or I can send him off to a mining belt with my main and make twice the isk I normally would without this "drone" (alt account). Hey I think I'll buy another "drone" (alt account) so I can cover more gates/wormholes, and make three times the isk I would normally. If this alt account was an in game item Jita would crash from all of the angry people in local.

Jenn aSide wrote:
Pay to win means people spending money to get super-advantages that people who are just playing can't get.
You don't think early threat detection and twice the isk making potential is a "super-advantage"? The only argument you made that actually made sense was the fact that once you buy the game you can use in game isk to buy PLEX from the market to continue running the account.


Jenn aSide wrote:
I don't see it that way, isboxer is just streamlining the process, it's no different than what that guy with all the tapped up mice was doing in that famous youtube video. And nothing is stopping anyone from using isboxer except personal choice. I don't use it because i find it tedious, but ccp says it's ok so it's ok.
CCP did NOT say it was ok. They said use those programs at your own risk. Which in legal terms means "Don't come crying to us when you get banned."
Lexar Mundi
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#95 - 2013-09-23 22:44:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexar Mundi
Diomedes Calypso wrote:
Hunting


The analogy is Hunting.


People get up at 3 in the morning, drive hudreds of miles including dozens of miles on long (timewise) dirt roads.... hike a ways in carrying their guns and some crap,


.. along the way they're looking for signs.. they use care and strategy in selecting a spot.

They need to anticipate where their pray might be even before they leave the car... then need to look at signs that the deer had used a route recently (wrecks ? lol) . Then, they might attacth some expensive seat device up the trunk of a tree.. climb up , then sit there for two hours until a deer comes along.

In a moment of adrenalaine, there is some care necessary. The need to be sure not to Scare the dear... lots of skill in staying steady. They need to make a clean deliberate move and make the first shot count before the deer is spooked.


Lots of skill.. in terms of knowledge and selection and a fair amount of skill needed to get off that clean shot gracefully.

No Fight needed.


No fight needed for the activity to be an activity enjoyed for hundreds of years with guns... thousanands with arrows etc (prey might have varried)

Whole cultures are built around the sport. Some people hate it but alll that matters is that some people love something for it to have merit to some people. Other's opinions do not alter the merit of the activity for others.. and honestly held with priorities diffferent than those that do not like the idea.


Well said. It's just like in EVE.

I hop in a cloaked ship, and wormhole dive for a few hours looking for signs of carebearing.

I look at websites to tell me if rats have been killed or other players ships. I then attach an expensive seat device (My ship) to their wormhole for a night or two and see if a carebear flies in front of me.

I make clean deliberate movements to make my first scram count before the carebear is spooked.

You almost described the way I hunt in wormhole space to a T Big smile

And that points out one of the issues the thread OP stated. He saw people cloak while camping a bubble assuming they don't want to get caught by another ship. I can't speak for those people, but I know in my experience in W-space if you don't cloak you lose your chance to kill a target, combat ship or not. They will see you on D-scan and run for the POS and either hop in a cloaked ship and hide so you think they are gone. or log off.
Chopper Rollins
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#96 - 2013-09-23 23:57:55 UTC
UH WAIT WAS THIS THREAD EVER ABOUT ANYTHING OTHER THAN SELF SERVING "OTHER PEOPLE DO THIS BUT I DON'T I DO THAT" DRIVEL?
OR HAS IT DEGENERATED FROM SOMEWHERE GOOD?
EGOS: THEY EAT EVERYTHING AND NEVER EAT ENOUGH


Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Lexar Mundi
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#97 - 2013-09-24 00:43:07 UTC
Chopper Rollins wrote:
UH WAIT WAS THIS THREAD EVER ABOUT ANYTHING OTHER THAN SELF SERVING "OTHER PEOPLE DO THIS BUT I DON'T I DO THAT" DRIVEL?
OR HAS IT DEGENERATED FROM SOMEWHERE GOOD?
EGOS: THEY EAT EVERYTHING AND NEVER EAT ENOUGH



Lego my Ego