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Balancing Feedback: Tier3 Battlecruisers

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Hellen Bach
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#521 - 2011-11-15 10:50:33 UTC
People moaning that 'Caldari pilots dont use hybrids'

.. Thats because there wern't any good caldari hybrid platforms.

Now there is one, so train up for it, get some choice and flexibility in how you choose to engage and the fleets you can fly, stop being one trick ponies!

Really 'no-one flies caldari hybrids' is a terrible reason to not make caldari hybrid boats. People _should_ fly them - and would if there were any good ones. Well, now there are, so be pleased you fools.

Really.. wanting to preserve a hole you trained yourselves into that was the result of some unbalanced mechanics is :not very clever: - be thankful that Caldari are now a more rounded race, and you have the chance to fly ships that use their capabilities overall much more effectivley.



..and worried about sniping being difficult because of :warprange: - then change tactics to counter, or start asking for some changes to on-grid probing mechanics, or some of the other solutions floating around to the sniping problem.


I Love the fact we have a good rail platform for Caldari - I am fed up to the back teeth with the fact Caldari have only had - lets face it - the simple and quite boring weapon system that doesnt require you to learn real piloting - for ages.

\o/ Hooray for the Naga as a hybrid platform :) Now flying caldari might gain a little respect outside of PvE and Drake Blobs.
cyka776
#522 - 2011-11-15 11:01:18 UTC
Lord Salty wrote:
.

as for all the people that said a torp boat is bad etc etc i think u need to stop sucking Amarr's ****. i know all of all who said torps are bad arent amarr players but i reckon a lot are. Every single ship with different setups are usefull, u just need to know how and when to use them.


i just dont see point of a glass torp launcher with a fairly large sig that cant fit a cov ops cloak and is more expensive than a stealth bomber when you have stealth bombers you could use instead
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#523 - 2011-11-15 11:03:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Iam Widdershins
Maksim Cammeren wrote:
Iam Widdershins wrote:
Maksim Cammeren wrote:
Stealing someone else's dps graph. Currently on SiSi, T3 BC's and a muninn, fitted to hit at 110km, drone dps not included:

http://mitglied.multimania.de/roemern/EVE/Ti3BC110km2.gif

blue - tornado // red - oracle // green - talos // yellow - naga // (purple - muninn)

(I don't have the targets size/transverse that was used, but I can look it up if someone really cares).

That graph for the oracle looks completely wrong. I don't have the faintest clue how you can get an Oracle to do less than 500 DPS, unless you completely gimped the entire fit just to shoot at an arbitrarily chosen 110km optimal range.



That is correct, the fits were designed to hit at ~110km. The point was to show that the Naga is better at those ranges.

Edit: While having a dual-weapon system Naga would be cool, the point is to counter people who say that it will be useless.

Sure, it won't be completely useless, but these fits are not shown, against a target that is not shown, with ammo that is not shown, with skills that are not shown, fit up with a target EHP that is not disclosed...

For instance, even now it's not hard to get the Oracle to do over 540 DPS at 170km, completely belying the point of your entire graph.

(I can even get the Tornado to do 540 dps at 110km. I don't know how these numbers were knocked up, or by whom, but...)

Basically, this graph is dubious at best, and meaningless at worst. All it proves is that the Naga is (probably) best at 1 thing: sniping at 110km and farther. Unfortunately for your argument, most of these other ships were changed partway through to have roles that don't really cater to long range anymore (i.e., the Oracle, which used to do way more damage at these ranges).

One of the primary goals of the Naga was to be an anti-capital platform, for which railguns do little good; in practice, it will either be little-used or look almost exactly like the Talos.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#524 - 2011-11-15 11:07:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Denmark
The Naga now being a complete hybridplatform is a very good decission...
The damage bonus making it usefull in the same way as the other tier 3 BCs and caldari get to see the beautiful model full of battleship guns instead of invisible launchers like another Drake.

People complaining about lack of torpedos don't know what is best for them and the REAL background behind caldari and the line of caldari ships...

The ships however still have to get their max speeds reduced to be in line with the rest of the game. Either by increasing their mass a lot and/or reducing their base velocity while compensating with reduced signature and perhaps more hitpoints to receive little damage from battleship weapons themself.

Also allowing the Talos to carry drones seems against the concept. Instead perhaps the battlecruisers should carry 4 guns with a marauderbonus and a utility slot for a neut/nos/smartbomb?

Historically (not that it matters) I believe many of the first battlecruisers were barges with battleship guns getting towed out in front of harbours and getting sunk down to reduced their signature above water... Having the tier 3 battlecruisers able to outrun hacs/cruisers is like poking people in the eye with a hot stick.

Pinky
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#525 - 2011-11-15 11:10:09 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
The Naga now being a complete railplatform is a very good decission...
The damage bonus making it usefull in the same way as the other tier 3 BCs.

People complaining about lack of torpedos don't know what is best for them and the REAL background behind caldari and the line of caldari ships...

The ships however still have to get their max speeds reduced to be in line with the rest of the game. Either by increasing their mass a lot and/or reducing their base velocity while compensating with reduced signature and perhaps more hitpoints to receive little damage from battleship weapons themself.

Well thank god Rasputin here actually knows what's best for EVE and everyone in it, I was beginning to lose hope.

-1

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
tika te
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#526 - 2011-11-15 11:25:27 UTC
ok..interessting changes...

with this new stats a blaster-naga >> blaster talos.
the drone bay is more or less a pure cosmetics fix...once you're tackeled, you're dead (since a tier3 bc is paperthin i HIGHLY doubt the talos will ever be able to fullfil that role)
with those changes shieldextended naga should be way faster than plated talos, and with 5% dmg bonused blasterboat with a second bonus for optimal it should be able to hit about 19k optimal + 20k falloff with neutron blasters and null charges...dealing acceptable dmg..


talos...STILL low hp (tier3 bc by design) , STILL slow hull, STILL extreme short range makes talos broken by design... Sad
if you want this ship to be a blasterboat there has way more to be changed about this hull...
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#527 - 2011-11-15 11:33:59 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
Historically


Historically, Carriers outrun everything.
Raven Ether
Doomheim
#528 - 2011-11-15 11:44:07 UTC
The Naga as a hybrid platform is a very good decision, well done CCP!



It might need some extra powergrid/cpu though.
Bomberlocks
Bombercorp
#529 - 2011-11-15 11:51:58 UTC
Bomberlocks wrote:
Ytterbium: I would like to ask you if you have considered the practical effect of the Tier 3 BCs in game. Could you possibly clarify your thinking (if you did so) as to how these ships will affect the use of current Battlecruisers. From what I see, they should make a range of other ships obsolete in game: Long range BCs will be totally outclassed by these ships as will sniper HACs, and these ships, hunting in gangs, will make the idea of tackling them with smaller ships difficult, especially if they fit webs.

TL;DR the Tier3 BCs seem to be even more effective against smaller ships than they are against BS and Capitals.

Was that your intention? Could you clarify, please?

Bumping myself, because I would really like to know what CCP's thinking was here.
Dr Sodius
#530 - 2011-11-15 12:16:14 UTC
finally caldari gets one really good hybrid platform and carebears, who want the new bc's to run lvl4's with them, are crying?

best update if you ask me!

thx ccp :)
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#531 - 2011-11-15 12:55:24 UTC
Dr Sodius wrote:
finally caldari gets one really good hybrid platform and carebears, who want the new bc's to run lvl4's with them, are crying?

best update if you ask me!

thx ccp :)

**** them , they have half dozen carebear ships they can choose from
spawx
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#532 - 2011-11-15 13:48:04 UTC  |  Edited by: spawx
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Here is the latest update on these ships:

NAGA


  • Missile role removed, now focuses as a hybrid platform
  • 10% Torpedo velocity per level swapped for 5% to Large Hybrid Turret damage per level


As pointed out, even with the velocity bonus, torpedoes have a too short of a range to be useful in practical situation with the Naga since it has the lowest mobility of all tier 3 battlecruisers and quite poor defensive options. Aligning this ship into a missile platform would have required a long range option as well, meaning the use of cruise missiles, which created a certain number of issues.

Specializing for a hybrid long range platform made more sense with the Naga role, which is why the damage bonus was appealing, especially when combined with CCP Tallest changes; it also makes more sense regarding Caldari tier philosophy, where highest tech 1 tiers usually are hybrid platforms (Merlin, Moa, Rokh).


TALOS


  • 25m3 dronebay and bandwidth added


Even if quite in opposition with the tier 3 battlecruiser role design, it adds an edge this ship needs over the other variants, especially since the Naga now it does the same damage with Hybrids. So, while we are looking at the blaster situation, we agreed giving the Talos a bit more survability against smaller threats was a good compromise for the time being.


TORNADO


  • Large Projectile Turret Falloff reduced from 10 to 5% per level


The reason for this reduction was mainly due to the range falloff reaches on autocannons when combined with the proper rigs, Barrage and Tracking Enchancers, dwarfing blasters in the close range department; we will see how the situation evolves and possibly make further changes to compensate.


Also, please note some small powergrid/CPU changes may happen to the tier 3 battlecruisers in the next build.

Thanks for your time.



>NAGA
Screw this, i want missiles not some cheapass Hyrbid **** noone even wants to train for. most caldari ppl have focused their training on missiles and now on this (and all other non-used Hybrid caldari ships) we are required to train a whole other set of skills to fly it? I am disapointed that CCP thinks Caldari shuld roll with Hybrids, how come the Tornado didnt get missiles since typhoon uses it ? same **** as you ******* us over as if you did that to the minmatar ship.

Ty for ruining this great looking ship -.-
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#533 - 2011-11-15 13:51:57 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
Dr Sodius wrote:
finally caldari gets one really good hybrid platform and carebears, who want the new bc's to run lvl4's with them, are crying?

best update if you ask me!

thx ccp :)

**** them , they have half dozen carebear ships they can choose from


Damn right. All this crying about the torp Naga just goes to show what happens when you let carebears infect a game.
Yankunytjatjara
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#534 - 2011-11-15 15:00:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Yankunytjatjara
NAGA

I like the double hybrid bonus, it's a good way forward. BUT, the freedom to fit 8 torps wasn't bad either!!


Attention How about keeping the 8g/8m slot setup? Attention


Without bonuses to missiles (apart from the fitting bonus) of course. This would give the freedom to fit torps without the torp speed bonus (which was not so important tbh). I think this would appease the carebears somewhat without losing a good change.

As a pvper, I was looking forward to a BC that is specialized in ganking BS! And the torp range I didn't care about: I'd be in scram/web range anyway!

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
it also makes more sense regarding Caldari tier philosophy, where highest tech 1 tiers usually are hybrid platforms (Merlin, Moa, Rokh).

And this Blink

My solo pvp video: Yankunytjude... That attitude! Solo/small gang proposal: Ship Velocity Vectors
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#535 - 2011-11-15 15:13:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
Hellen Bach wrote:
People moaning that 'Caldari pilots dont use hybrids'

.. Thats because there wern't any good caldari hybrid platforms.

Now there is one, so train up for it, get some choice and flexibility in how you choose to engage and the fleets you can fly, stop being one trick ponies!

Really 'no-one flies caldari hybrids' is a terrible reason to not make caldari hybrid boats. People _should_ fly them - and would if there were any good ones. Well, now there are, so be pleased you fools.

Really.. wanting to preserve a hole you trained yourselves into that was the result of some unbalanced mechanics is :not very clever: - be thankful that Caldari are now a more rounded race, and you have the chance to fly ships that use their capabilities overall much more effectivley.



..and worried about sniping being difficult because of :warprange: - then change tactics to counter, or start asking for some changes to on-grid probing mechanics, or some of the other solutions floating around to the sniping problem.


I Love the fact we have a good rail platform for Caldari - I am fed up to the back teeth with the fact Caldari have only had - lets face it - the simple and quite boring weapon system that doesnt require you to learn real piloting - for ages.

\o/ Hooray for the Naga as a hybrid platform :) Now flying caldari might gain a little respect outside of PvE and Drake Blobs.



I couldn't have said it better myself.

Missile whiners who never trained Hybrids finally get something that isn't strictly missiles or a split platform.

On top of this, the biggest argument is someone slapping 3 shield extenders and wanting to use it to run missions... These are glass cannon gank ships.


If you want to PvE go grab your missile bonused maurader... quit bastardizing the Naga to be your bearship.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#536 - 2011-11-15 15:18:34 UTC
spawx wrote:

>NAGA
Screw this, i want missiles not some cheapass Hyrbid **** noone even wants to train for. most caldari ppl have focused their training on missiles and now on this (and all other non-used Hybrid caldari ships) we are required to train a whole other set of skills to fly it? I am disapointed that CCP thinks Caldari shuld roll with Hybrids, how come the Tornado didnt get missiles since typhoon uses it ? same **** as you ******* us over as if you did that to the minmatar ship.

Ty for ruining this great looking ship -.-


That's because people train them as a quick and easy PvE platform, and they are best at that.. PvE... the kessie, drake, raven, golem... all FANTASTIC mission running boats.

This is a gank ship.

Rails have ALWAYS been part of Caldari ships. Every race has 2 weapon platforms

Caldari - rails/missiles
Gallente - blasters/drones
Amarr - lasers/missiles
Minmatar - Projectiles/missiles

Everyoen else trains both up to be versitile and you're moaning because you can't have everything your way. HTFU. It's a gank ship not a stupid mission runner for you to blitz with.

Damn carebears, quit whining.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#537 - 2011-11-15 15:30:34 UTC
So the Naga is now a better blaster platform than the Talos.... With a single tracking computer and 2 mag stabs you get over 800 turret dps with null at 20km optimal and 20km falloff....
The Underdark
Perkone
Caldari State
#538 - 2011-11-15 15:32:58 UTC
I support the Missile boat!

I'ma hybrid pilot, I fly mostly gall. And I recognize that every rae has mutiple weapons to train for, however missiles are already fairly intensive and having to train up an extra 10 mil SP in gunnary for the new ship is rediculous.. it's a Large Hybrid ship, that means they have to train all the hybrids and it's support skills in addition to all the missile skills.

Missiles are perfectly viable in pvp, Please give the Naga missiles back
Hannark
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#539 - 2011-11-15 15:34:11 UTC
Dear CCP,

What ive read on the forums and seen on Youtube....... Good job so far!

Now the change of the NAGA i find dissapointing. Please make it an missle boat again!!!


Please respect that people make choices for prefered weapons. let those who want an missleboat... Now in the new set op Battlecruisers there is NO missleboat.

My self use an hybrid setup playing style.

gegards,

Hannark
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#540 - 2011-11-15 15:35:01 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Here is the latest update on these ships:




TORNADO


  • Large Projectile Turret Falloff reduced from 10 to 5% per level


The reason for this reduction was mainly due to the range falloff reaches on autocannons when combined with the proper rigs, Barrage and Tracking Enchancers, dwarfing blasters in the close range department; we will see how the situation evolves and possibly make further changes to compensate.



Or you could just nerf the 30% falloff on TE and stop being jackasses....