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New dev blog: Player Owned Customs Offices: An update!

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Scarlett Ninja
Section 5
#101 - 2011-11-15 15:28:39 UTC
@ Omen....... player driven?

So what you want is for players to sort out PI production and costs for themselves?............i thought that's where we were at now!

All I can see is you driving players ( only those in sufficiently big corps/alliances of course ) to erect costly and hard to defend structures for little or no gain, if not a total loss
Via Shivon
#102 - 2011-11-15 15:28:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Via Shivon
ThAIndusty wrote:


Why do you keep pushing this on when 75% doesn't want it? Are you so blind that when you think you have a good idea but the biggest portion of the community is against it you still have the need to push it through? It really makes no sense to me....




LoL YOU are not 75% of eve... only because after the expasion not every freaking 20 day old char can earn EVERYwere 400m+++ a month with little efford to PI?

MOAH Tears lol...

I wanne see the "Incursion nerf tears" !!
Ethanole
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#103 - 2011-11-15 15:29:19 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Current tariffs in high-security space - as of today - on Singularity:

P0 Aqua - 0.50 / 1.00 per unit (import/export)
P1 Oxygen - 0.10 / 0.20 per unit
P2 Coolant - 9.00 / 18.00 per unit
P2 Mech Parts - 9.00 / 18.00 per unit
P3 Robotics - 9.00 / 18.00 per unit
P4 Broadcast Node - 50,000 / 100,000 per unit

Math:

- P0:P1 unit ratio is 3000:20 (150:1), volume ratio is 30:7.6 m3 (3.95:1)
- P1:P2 unit ratio is 80:5 (16:1), volume ratio is 30.4:7.5 m3 (4.05:1)
- P2:P3 unit ratio is either 20:3 or 30:3, volume ratio is either 30 m3 or 45 m3 into 18 m3
- P3:P4 unit ratio is 12:1 or 18:1, volume ratio is between 87-108 m3 vs 100 m3

Current prices on TQ:

P0 - 1.50-4.00
P1 - 150-800 (traditionally 120-600)
P2 - 4500-11000 (traditionally 4000-7500)
P3 - 25000-70000
P4 - 800k to 1500k (traditionally 600k-1200k)

New export tariffs (in hi-sec) as a percentage to the market value of the tier:

P0 - 25.0% to 66.7%
P1 - 0.025% to 1.33%
P2 - 1.64% to 12.0%
P3 - 0.0257% to 0.072%
P4 - 6.67% to 12.5%

Summary:

- P1 tariff rates are even lower today then they are on TQ - which means P1 harvest worlds will be even less viable as a taxable resource then initially thought.

- P3 tariff rates are ridiculously low.

Suggestions (assuming hi-sec tariffs are left at the "10%" setting):

- P0 tariff should be 0.40 / 0.80 in hi-sec (not 0.50/1.00)

- P1 tariff should be 40 / 80 per unit in hi-sec.

- P2 tariff should be 500 / 1000 per unit in hi-sec

- P3 tariff should be 5000 / 10000 per unit in hi-sec

- P4 tariff is fine (or take it up 25-50% to encourage building outside of hi-sec).

- If the allowed tariff rate is 0-20%, then the hi-sec CO tariff rate of 10% is okay. But if the allowed tariff rate is 0-100%, then the hi-sec tariff rates are way too low and need to be boosted to 50%. (In which case, all of the above numbers should be divided by 4.)

- The goal of hi-sec tariffs should be that they are high enough to reward a move to null/low in order to reduce taxes, high enough that a low-sec POCO can be viable and competitive for a P1 harvest planet, and generally in the range of 10-20% of existing/traditional market values for that tier when done in hi-sec.


Note emptyquoting, this post explains about everything that's wrong with tax rates/tariffs, also take into account that nobody sane imports/exports P0 (the volume requires a freighter to be profitable and installing P1 factories is more profitable) and thus the most imported/exported articles are P1, P2 and P3. (P4 is fine as it stands).
O'Relie
Barking Cat Industries
Burn the Boats
#104 - 2011-11-15 15:29:57 UTC
Hey CCP. These changes look good, and this should definitely make PI a much more challenging profession. I look forward to the market volatility.
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions
#105 - 2011-11-15 15:31:18 UTC
Jowen Datloran wrote:
Also, I still think this is a pretty terrible idea you are trying to impose especially in low sec and NPC zero sec.
PI in its current implementation is incredible limited and consist of moving dots around and pressing a few buttons. Simplistic, tedious and boring gameplay will many agree to. But some find it interesting game play anyhow, just like some people enjoy mining. PI (on the planet) can easily be done by a solo or small corporation which gives them purpose.

Now you brilliant idea is forcing these people either into a gameplay that is pretty much the opposite of the current PI (adrenaline pumping ship to ship combat) or the option to abandon PI altogether (on their way to doing the same with EVE in general). I seriously cannot see the selling point in limiting people’s access to one game feature by letting another be able to rule over it. That is the reason why Darkfall is crap if you are interests are in crafting and market mechanics because hack’n’slash rule all. Same reason why people who enjoy fighting against other players hate when they are forced into PvE raids to get gear for these fights.

Within a month or so we will see one blob of players identifying what PI mineral is the bottleneck, stock it up and then wipe out all POCOs in low sec, or take them over to exclude everybody else, for that particular mineral. Or we will see the Goons doing us all a favor by rapidly destroying each and every POCO in low sec.

Fundamentally; did you seriously believe people would get more interested in PI when you do not improve on the actual PI mechanics but instead limits people’s access to them? What kind of player are you hoping to draw in with this?

If PvP should be a greater element in PI it should have be done on the darn planets.


Double-Liking this post.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#106 - 2011-11-15 15:31:53 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Current tariffs in high-security space - as of today - on Singularity:

P0 Aqua - 0.50 / 1.00 per unit (import/export)
P1 Oxygen - 0.10 / 0.20 per unit
P2 Coolant - 9.00 / 18.00 per unit
P2 Mech Parts - 9.00 / 18.00 per unit
P3 Robotics - 9.00 / 18.00 per unit
P4 Broadcast Node - 50,000 / 100,000 per unit


:speechless:

Surely this is a bug?

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions
#107 - 2011-11-15 15:34:07 UTC
Floydd Heywood wrote:
Rommiee wrote:
To quote from the latest blog “One thing that really stood out was your concern for the transition period when all customs offices will be removed”

What about the other 80-odd pages of concerns ?

The “New” CCP is supposed to be listening to the players concerns, if you are still bringing this crap in, then obviously you are not.


Love it how people will pretend everyone is of their opinion without any factual basis. About 20 of those pages were people saying they liked the feature as it was initially announced. Another 50 pages was people asking for the changes now implemented. Maybe the remaining 10 pages were people asking for changes that were now not implemented, or were simply whining. Only because CCP doesn't fulfill every wish someone utters on the forums, doesn't mean they "ignore the playerbase" Roll


You really haven't been paying attention.
Cailais
The Red Pill Taker Group
#108 - 2011-11-15 15:36:37 UTC
Overall looks good. The size of the gantry might be an issue in terms of how easy they are to move around but thats a relatively small point.

Love the idea of being able to exchange ownership of these things - v nice addition!

C.
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions
#109 - 2011-11-15 15:51:10 UTC
Via Shivon wrote:
ThAIndusty wrote:


Why do you keep pushing this on when 75% doesn't want it? Are you so blind that when you think you have a good idea but the biggest portion of the community is against it you still have the need to push it through? It really makes no sense to me....




LoL YOU are not 75% of eve... only because after the expasion not every freaking 20 day old char can earn EVERYwere 400m+++ a month with little efford to PI?

MOAH Tears lol...

I wanne see the "Incursion nerf tears" !!


5/10 troll. You're looking at valid complaints and laughing as if they don't matter BECAUSE THEY'RE COMPLAINTS. Put your big boy pants on, take an objective look at what's being done, and think about how it applies to the community as a whole. YOU are also not 75% of the eve population.
Iosue
League of Gentlemen
The Initiative.
#110 - 2011-11-15 16:01:49 UTC
CCP Omen wrote:
"People will grief the Interbus COs"
That is quite probable, even with this change of deployment, our guiding light is that EVE is player driven. This way the transition between NPC owned and Player owned will be smoother. It's no silver bullet and balancing between player driven and player convenience is very difficult. Our hope remain that you, the player will organize and sort out the supply and demand of PI goods and the availability of Customs Offices. If that does not happen, and there is a measurable decline in lowsec or PI activity then we will act. How we act will be decided if that event occurs, but we will not simply let lowsec die. We strive to invigorate lowsec, not just with this feature but for the long run. You may disagree that this feature will accomplish that, but that is never the less one of our goals and we will monitor how it pans out.


I understand, however, i think there should be some measurable consequence for the act of blowing up an NPC or other player corp's CO's. CCP has always tried to implement changes with both benefits and consequences, this helps ensure an equilibrium in player actions.

Not sure if this has been suggested or implemented, but i propose that a player's sec status with Concord be affected negatively if they blow up an NPC or POCO (if they are not at war) in lo-sec. If the attacker makes a war dec, then they should have no negative hit for the destruction to a POCO, but they would still get the negative hit for an NPC CO.
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#111 - 2011-11-15 16:06:22 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Two step wrote:
I like this change. Do the interbus offices just blow up? Do they have the same HP as regular offices?


Yes and yes.


Do the interbus offices generate a killmail?

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
#112 - 2011-11-15 16:09:45 UTC
Iosue wrote:


I understand, however, i think there should be some measurable consequence for the act of blowing up an NPC or other player corp's CO's. CCP has always tried to implement changes with both benefits and consequences, this helps ensure an equilibrium in player actions.

Not sure if this has been suggested or implemented, but i propose that a player's sec status with Concord be affected negatively if they blow up an NPC or POCO (if they are not at war) in lo-sec. If the attacker makes a war dec, then they should have no negative hit for the destruction to a POCO, but they would still get the negative hit for an NPC CO.


+1

Risk versus reward, remember? Since when is it ok to allow players to blow up the property of other players in lowsec with zero consequences?
Ciar Meara
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#113 - 2011-11-15 16:12:45 UTC
I forsee a downward trend of interbuss assets in the future.

People wining about how this will end PI should try to be less whiny and more enterpreneury.

- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow]
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions
#114 - 2011-11-15 16:16:33 UTC
Scarlett Ninja wrote:
@ Omen....... player driven?

So what you want is for players to sort out PI production and costs for themselves?............i thought that's where we were at now!

All I can see is you driving players ( only those in sufficiently big corps/alliances of course ) to erect costly and hard to defend structures for little or no gain, if not a total loss


A lot of the math has been done on the assumption that the owner wouldn't be hauling loads of goodies off the POCO. If CCP is thinking that these changes are okay based on the assumption that people/corp/alliances would be making money off the PI goods, I can see why they are sitting there with a blank stare on their faces wondering what all the fuss is about.

There are still issues unaddressed. This is a nerf to low-sec population still. You're changing easy money to money in low-sec to a riskier venture than putting up a tower. At least the tower can try to defend itself. This feature is still broken for low-sec most of all. If you haven't gotten the message by now, you're not going to get it.

The chaos is coming.
Digital Gaidin
Manetheren Rising
#115 - 2011-11-15 16:23:28 UTC
1) Are there any improvements in the works to make planetary launches a viable means of operating PI jobs? Notably increases to the storage/launch capability of the Command Centers?

2) Are there any improvements in the works to make PCOs accessible via alternative means such as hacking?

3) Are there any reprecussions for griefing LowSec PCOs (player owned, not Interbus)? Are these just giant pinata's for LowSec entities to shoot when they are bored?

4) When you destroy a PCO, do any of the player's goods that are just hanging out in it have the chance to drop?
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#116 - 2011-11-15 16:24:48 UTC
Mikron Alexarr wrote:


There are still issues unaddressed. This is a nerf to low-sec population still. You're changing easy money to money in low-sec to a riskier venture than putting up a tower. At least the tower can try to defend itself. This feature is still broken for low-sec most of all. If you haven't gotten the message by now, you're not going to get it.

The chaos is coming.


This is where you're wrong.

This is a buff to lowsec residency.

Plucking the freely available rich fruit of lowsec PI and running off to hisec with it is the problem. If you want lowsec PI now you better be ready to build it, own it, and defend it. You can't just come in and harvest it and then leave any longer.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Digital Gaidin
Manetheren Rising
#117 - 2011-11-15 16:37:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Digital Gaidin
War Kitten wrote:
Mikron Alexarr wrote:


There are still issues unaddressed. This is a nerf to low-sec population still. You're changing easy money to money in low-sec to a riskier venture than putting up a tower. At least the tower can try to defend itself. This feature is still broken for low-sec most of all. If you haven't gotten the message by now, you're not going to get it.

The chaos is coming.


This is where you're wrong.

This is a buff to lowsec residency.

Plucking the freely available rich fruit of lowsec PI and running off to hisec with it is the problem. If you want lowsec PI now you better be ready to build it, own it, and defend it. You can't just come in and harvest it and then leave any longer.


Right, so I build it for ~26mil (factoring in LP cost) + build cost in materials, place it, and while offline it gets hit by some bored entities in and around LowSec who are flying around trolling for a fight. Obviously, outside of my timezone, so no fight occurs during the initial reinforcement.

So, comes out of reinforcement on my timezone and now...
1) Bring in Carriers into lowsec on an undefended planet to rep a PCO? Ha, bullshit unless I have some supers in the wings waiting.
2) Bring in logistics and a defense force capable of being mustered for a LowSec entity (10-20 pilots max)? Only real option, so lets play that out...

2a.... Hostiles don't show and blows the entire nights activities trying to rep the damn thing with Logistics...
2b.... Hostiles show BUT they don't give a damn about negative security status while we do, so they control the entire tempo of the fight... any friends we have coming along, etc... can't really partake without taking the security hits unless they attack first?
2c.... All parties don't care of security status, and *maybe* a battle occurs...

The only real "buff" to Low Security that I see here are the entities that operate on the negative side of CONCORD are at an advantage to run the planets, and they effectively now have a means to build infrastructure and charge for it. Due to the ability to control access though, it makes it too risky for carebears to really invest too much time and energy as there is always the possibility that the owner will cut off access and you will have to go through the eye gougingly painful process of winding down the planet using the launches (or more realistically just burn your investment and move elsewhere). For those who prefer to spend the majority of their time doing other things and PI was a fun side game, the only real viable options are Nullsec or empire after this change.

Ironically, it does further buff NPC corps as private corps like mine could be set red, but I don't think you can set noobie corps red? Those running Lowsec PCO's will have an all or none option with NPC corps (block/open all neutral) unless they want to control standings on individual players at a corporate level (now there's a nightmare!).
VaL Iscariot
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#118 - 2011-11-15 16:49:57 UTC
hmmmm... Well, guess i better get that torp Naga fit up. Got some structures to bash.

Really though, considering the price of these structures, the risk, and roles required for them, I suspect you won't see a great many of them. I can see them being fought over at every Plasma planet in low sec, but that's all. If a corp found a good system and wanted to move in there, I could see them bringing one or two in, but not many more then that.
Havegun Willtravel
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
#119 - 2011-11-15 16:51:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Havegun Willtravel
Nice changes, thank you.

There was no way everyone was going to come out 100% happy with this but imo the critical feedback has been addressed.

I'm minutely concerned about the lack of respawn, a player owned CO getting destroyed and not being replaced in a day or week with a new Interbus CO but as you've mentioned if it becomes and issue you have contingency plans or options that can be implemented.

As both a political and military conflict generator this change should be very interesting, in particular in low sec, and I'm very much looking forward to it.

As for the nay sayers, think of this less as an excuse for null sec entities to blob low sec and more of an opportunity for high sec corps and alliances to expand their influence into less used and under-appreciated space.

They don't need more defenses, that's why you have ships, don't worry about getting locked out so much as making new friends who own a CO, and unpredictability and volatility are good not bad. It's called progress. Profit from it and have fun doing it.

Thanks again for a great new feature.
Le BigMac
Doomheim
#120 - 2011-11-15 16:59:45 UTC
I'm a bit concerned about the bpc pricing in the LP shops.

Dev blog says 3k LP + 10mil isk in faction warfare LP shops and 6k LP + 20mil isk in the CONCORD shop.

Now, 3k vs. 6k LP is fine by me, but where did the 10mil vs. 20mil pricing come from?

As it stands, given the going rate for FW LP, the custom office bpc's will end up costing less than 20mil anyway, and therefore it would be pointless to buy them from anywhere other than FW LP stores.

So is there even a point to have them in the CONCORD LP shop then?

For other items that require both isk and LP, if you look at FW stores vs. regular LP stores selling the same item, you notice that the LP requirements in the FW one are lower, but the isk costs are the same (for instance, a Navy Mega bpc costs 500k LP + 200mil in the Fed Navy LP store and 250K LP + 200mil in the FDU LP store)!

When you (CCP) implemented that I guess the reasoning was so that you wouldn't impose a "hard cash" limitation on LP value.

My suggestion: make the isk requirement for the BPCs the same in CONCORD and FW LP shops. Whether that's 10 mil, or 20mil, or somewhere inbetween - it's all the same.