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New dev blog: Player Owned Customs Offices: An update!

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Andre Coeurl
Embers Children
#81 - 2011-11-15 14:10:43 UTC
Even with these few changes (which are ok) the basic faults of the new Customs Offices system remain.
Biggest fault being that there's no risk in shooting down a CO, which will cost about half as much as a small POS but will have no defence at all. The new COs will be basically just very expensive floating cans with a reinforcement timer....
Even a gang of noobs in velators will be able to kill them, provided they have quite some time to waste "just for the lawls" Roll
The only CO which will stand will be those in protected areas (0.0, WHs, and those areas of lowsec where very strong groups live) or those belonging to pirate corps who'll use them as "baits".

The result will be, IMHO, obvious.
Lowsec PI become a monopoly of strong alliances in some areas and utterly disappears in others.
0.0 PI of course will be a monopoly of sov holders, and impossible in NPC areas.
Wh PI becoming a major operational cost and a PITA as the customs will be sometimes randomly shot down by griefers during off-peak times.
Highsec PI further decreases profitability.
The overall result will be that PI stuff prices will skyrocket, or the availability to general players will shrink a lot.
Apparently CCP wants to see a lot less towers in space, and wants to give the big alliances a further upper hand.
Of course this shouldn't surprise anyone, given the composition of current CSM.

If they want to limit the ensuing monopoly, CCP should allow defences to be implemented there, which, I know, is complex boring and expensive, but it's one possible path...
or increase the HP on a customs office so much that only a cap fleet will be able to kill it in a short time (the current hitpoints are too little, they should be comparable to those of a large POS not to those of a small one ).
and at least don't show the reinforcement timer to attackers, so they'll have to scout to find out when the CO comes out, otherwise it's just too simple to kill it off!
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#82 - 2011-11-15 14:11:15 UTC
Let us take this one again and let us hear how revolutionary the concept of POCOs really is:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
link
•Shooting at stationary structures is boring
◦See: Starbase warfare, Dominion sov warfare. Even the good fights that do happen around such objectives could be improved by having better objectives.
◦Shooting at things with hitpoints scales very efficiently with fleet size, which encourages lag-producing behavior

•Having to spend significant amounts of effort defeating an enemy which isn't even fighting back is really boring
◦See: Starbase warfare, Dominion sov warfare. See in particular how long it took to clear IT Alliance's ownership out of Delve, as a recent example

•Waking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring
◦See: station ping-pong pre-sov, repairing station services. Having to do something tedious every day before you can actually play the game is not cool

•Doing something just "because it would be cool/neat/awesome" is always a bad idea and will come back to bite you later
◦See: Jump bridges, cyno jammers, Sov 4, AoE doomsdays, titans in general, supercarrier boost... Note that we should still obviously strive to make everything cool/neat/awesome, but when we start off with an awesome idea rather than an actual problem we want to fix or a feature that has a clear, functional and necessary goal, it generally requires painful fixes further down the road

•Cost is a useful variable to tune but an unwise thing to rely on to enforce scarcity or balance - players will always be richer than you think
◦See: outposts, titans, supercarriers

•Making something tedious will not stop players doing it if it's very clearly the best option. They'll do it, and they'll hate it
◦See: everything involving starbases. As a counterpoint though, things like the one-per-corp-per-system-per-day starbase rule demonstrate that if something doesn't make a big difference but is sufficiently awkward to do, then any theoretical "exploit" scenarios tend to fall out of favor quickly as they're just not worth the effort.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Aynen
Federal Guard and Recon Corporation
#83 - 2011-11-15 14:11:28 UTC
From how I understand it, the survival of Ninja PI in wh space depends upon how many wormhole corps find it worth the effort to destroy the existing costums offices and put into place their own. If most of them do this, then that's the end of Ninja wormhole PI, if most of them don't, we're all good.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#84 - 2011-11-15 14:18:27 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Ethanole wrote:
Still doesn't change the fact that the taxes are ridiculous, you should allow at least 200% tax rates for these to actually mean something, even a 15 or 20% tax rate for interbus CO's won't bother anyone, In fact I don't see anyone spending 1B on a system just to gain 5M isk per month.
I've been thinking about this, too.

At current market prices, a POCO will be 85-90m ISK in total to set up. P4 items currently cost 50k ISK in export task per unit (5%). Assuming 15% tax rate, this will be 150k ISK per P4 item. Each P4 also requires 18 P3 items to be imported. At 600 ISK p.u. currently, that would be another 600*18*3 = 32.4k ISK tax per P4 item. Or 182.4k ISK total. That is, you need to produce 494 P4 items on a planet to make the POCO pay off. That's a bit under 50k m3.

At full capacity, that would be under a week.

This is a bit off, as no one will pay 15% tax for a pure production planet if they can just pay 10% in much safer high-sec, but it should give a rough idea. It's difficult to calculate profit for extraction, as I do not know extraction numbers in low-sec.


For the previous devblog thread, I did a fairly unscientific check, and got around 6k P1 units/colony/day. So 9k taxes at 10% rate. That's ridiculous. For a single colony it will take 24 years to pay for the POCO. Completely absurd.

The base cost for the taxes needs to be adjusted for everything under P4 to be closer to market price. A typical P1 item sells for 150-400 isk, but for CO tax purposes it's valued at 15. Should be increased at least tenfold.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#85 - 2011-11-15 14:18:55 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Salpun wrote:
WH PI was not addressed in the blog directly. All customs offices will remain until destroyed correct?


Yes any existing NPC customs offices that are on TQ when this update lands will remain until they are destroyed.


Why have customs offices destructible at all? Why not simply offline them if someone puts a PCO up and online them if it's removed/destroyed? You screw a lot less of the community over that way.

Assuming that matters.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
jonnykefka
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#86 - 2011-11-15 14:21:33 UTC
So I assume they can still only be built in stations? Even with the reduced volume etc, it would be nice if us w-dwellers (and deep 0.0 POS dwellers as well I'm sure) could build them in-house, as it were. Equipment Assembly Array?
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#87 - 2011-11-15 14:26:45 UTC
Other "quick fixes" that should have been done to PI for the expansion:

- Fix "Storage Facilities", which are currently only 5000 m3, 500tf and 700MW. They should have been changed to 20k or 30k m3 - or 10k m3 and a reduction in PG/CPU to 200tf and 200MW. They should be a viable alternative to just using Launch Pads everywhere (they're not currently, because LPs use the same MW and hold twice as much on harvest planets - which are not constrained by CPU).

- More CPU/PG for the level 4 CC (with Command Center Upgrades V) and especially the level 5 CC (CCU V skill). At a guess, the CC4 should be closer to 23k tf and 19k MW, while the CC5 should be closer to 27k tf and 25k MW.

- Increase the storage capacity of Command Centers at the higher levels, including expanded launch capability. A more natural progress would be: 500, 600, 750, 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#88 - 2011-11-15 14:30:50 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
I think the #1 change that needs to be made to the UI is to do away with the percentage signs. They are going to cause endless confusion about how the import/export fees are calculated. A lot of people are going to assume that "10%" means 10% of market value and not 10% of some internal tariff value.


I have to disagree on this one.

The % is much clearer than what you suggested in my eyes. Confusing this tax % with a % value of market value is a fallacy that only those not even truly involved in PI would make.

If you stop for a minute to think about it, how would that even make sense in Eve's marketplace? Which regional market would it choose if there were none of those materials on the local regional market to determine a market value?

Yeah, I know, assuming that people will think first is a stretch, but in the long run, percentages are easier for people to think about than decimals. They just need to be clear in some description somewhere what that percentage relates to.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#89 - 2011-11-15 14:34:03 UTC
I just had a funny idea about the transfer ownership option.

Assume some highsec corp/alliance wants to take over a lowsec POCO. Because they are all very fond of their perfect 5.0 sec status, they do it legally and wardec the owner. They go in and reinforce the POCO.

Then the POCO owner transfers his office to an alt corp.

The attackers are now forced to take GCC, and in any fight with a defending gang, they will suffer a sec loss for every ship they engage/kill.

Would this be acceptable?

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Bephatasis
Free Carpenters Union
#90 - 2011-11-15 14:34:30 UTC
In the last DEV-Blog-Comment Thread was mentioned that the Tax will be calculated from a fixed amount of ISK like 6k ISK for Robotics.

Insurance Prices will be changed with mineralcost, why not do the same with the PI Stuff?

Will mean there is a real chance that a Corp is able to get to the Point that it is no wastage of ISK to set up a PlayerOwnedCustomOffice.

Would be nice to hear that u checked some numbers how long it takes to get back the investmentcost for setting up a "POCO".

But again: All in all i've to say, that i like the way this is going, also the changes done up to now are very good compared to the first DEV-Blog. Keep going!
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#91 - 2011-11-15 14:38:05 UTC
I'm excited, don't know if it will be the end of PI for me or a refocus, alot will depend on the FW fix. At the moment I use PI to pay for the ships I loose with FW.

I might have less need for it when they bring on the changes to FW which would be cool since it will give me me less time transporting stuff.

Or it will become a FW thing by it self which will be cool as well since there is actualy something to gain insteat of a occupy name in the screen.

very excited.
TheButcherPete
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#92 - 2011-11-15 14:44:50 UTC
Just another structure to bash *sighs*

[b]THE KING OF EVE RADIO

If EVE is real, does that mean all of us are RMTrs?[/b]
Bephatasis
Free Carpenters Union
#93 - 2011-11-15 14:46:55 UTC
Will there be a possibility to "process" the new POS-Fuel (FuelBlocks/FuelPellets) on a Planet?
Maybe in High-Tech-Processors only.

Think this will increase the ppl trying PI so that they don't have to waste their Production Slots for building FuelBlocks.

And maybe, if ppl already have the Skills and set up some Planets for building FuelBlocks, they alsp try some PI extended over just building FuelBlocks, and i think more ppl using the ingame stuff would be something good!
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#94 - 2011-11-15 14:57:56 UTC
Quote:
Have you ever been in LoSec? I live there. Unless you are in a handful of populous areas, Losec is a ghost town. All of these arguments are fallacies.



Quote:
/15 battleships is blobbing now? You must live in hisec. All of this is additional whining from people who want to play a different game than EVE Online.



Quote:
Of course if you count the concerns that are whining because EVE is a PvP game, less are addressed. But then you shouldn't be playing EVE...


Well, you see this is a classic case of making assumptions that cause you to look like an ass.


Three of my main Characters live in 0.0 flying caps and sub-caps.

5 of my other characters live in and around low-sec and do PI in various regions of low-sec.

The list of issues I quoted came directly from the previous blog thread, not directly from myself. This was just to make the point that most of the concerns have not been addressed.

Have a nice day.
Ya Huei
Imperial Collective
#95 - 2011-11-15 15:03:24 UTC
Aynen wrote:
From how I understand it, the survival of Ninja PI in wh space depends upon how many wormhole corps find it worth the effort to destroy the existing costums offices and put into place their own. If most of them do this, then that's the end of Ninja wormhole PI, if most of them don't, we're all good.


It's not about it being worth the effort. It's about getting rid of pesky freeloaders, and making the PI products more valuable.

I personally hope all WH corps with lowsec/highsec statics start popping the old school Customs offices on day 1 of the winter expansion.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#96 - 2011-11-15 15:13:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Scrapyard Bob
Current tariffs in high-security space - as of today - on Singularity:

P0 Aqua - 0.50 / 1.00 per unit (import/export)
P1 Oxygen - 0.10 / 0.20 per unit
P2 Coolant - 9.00 / 18.00 per unit
P2 Mech Parts - 9.00 / 18.00 per unit
P3 Robotics - 600 / 1200 per unit
P4 Broadcast Node - 50,000 / 100,000 per unit

(note - my P3 number was wrong before)

Math:

- P0:P1 unit ratio is 3000:20 (150:1), volume ratio is 30:7.6 m3 (3.95:1)
- P1:P2 unit ratio is 80:5 (16:1), volume ratio is 30.4:7.5 m3 (4.05:1)
- P2:P3 unit ratio is either 20:3 or 30:3, volume ratio is either 30 m3 or 45 m3 into 18 m3
- P3:P4 unit ratio is 12:1 or 18:1, volume ratio is between 87-108 m3 vs 100 m3

Current prices on TQ:

P0 - 1.50-4.00
P1 - 150-800 (traditionally 120-600)
P2 - 4500-11000 (traditionally 4000-7500)
P3 - 25000-70000
P4 - 800k to 1500k (traditionally 600k-1200k)

New export tariffs (in hi-sec) as a percentage to the market value of the tier:

P0 - 25.0% to 66.7%
P1 - 0.025% to 1.33%
P2 - 1.64% to 12.0%
P3 - 1.71% to 4.80% (fixed with new numbers)
P4 - 6.67% to 12.5%

Summary:

- P1 tariff rates are even lower today then they are on TQ - which means P1 harvest worlds will be even less viable as a taxable resource then initially thought.

Suggestions (assuming hi-sec tariffs are left at the "10%" setting):

- P0 tariff should be 0.40 / 0.80 in hi-sec (not 0.50/1.00)

- P1 tariff should be 40 / 80 per unit in hi-sec.

- P2 tariff should be 500 / 1000 per unit in hi-sec

- P3 tariff should be 5000 / 10000 per unit in hi-sec

- P4 tariff is fine (or take it up 25-50% to encourage building outside of hi-sec).

- If the allowed tariff rate is 0-20%, then the hi-sec CO tariff rate of 10% is okay. But if the allowed tariff rate is 0-100%, then the hi-sec tariff rates are way too low and need to be boosted to 50%. (In which case, all of the above numbers should be divided by 4.)

- The goal of hi-sec tariffs should be that they are high enough to reward a move to null/low in order to reduce taxes, high enough that a low-sec POCO can be viable and competitive for a P1 harvest planet, and generally in the range of 10-20% of existing/traditional market values for that tier when done in hi-sec.
Ottman
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#97 - 2011-11-15 15:14:09 UTC
okay ccp, i will just spend as much money as i need not to loose accounts, that means two 60 days gtc for next year, means 4 plexes for two accounts, just to keep the accounts definetly saved and i hope you will learn the lesson, i make step back from monthly subscription, because that poco bullshitting begs for punishment, i just stop playing and watch you falling on your nose ccp, and its obvious you will, because griefing at the backbone where all depends on is epic fail, and that means you are under close watching what will happen after the winter expansion, if the things go havoc as many ppl see it coming then you ccp guys know what will happen, many others will just say cya and stop playing, must you loose more employees before you understand what you can do with this community and what not ? its the first time in over six years now that i am not looking forward to an expansion, and that means something for sure...
sometimes ppl learn only when **** hits the fan, you got warned more than one time ccp, you cant tell something else afterwards, and tbh if you ccp guys are later crying " we didnt know" then i know definetly eve online is done for because liars you cant depend on.

MfG Ottman
ThAIndusty
Air
The Initiative.
#98 - 2011-11-15 15:18:46 UTC


You where doing such a good job for the winter expansion but this is a total waste of effort and time. it almost makes me hate the upcomming patch... i do PI only for making pos fuel for corp posses and i am not going to bother with setting up a PO if the interbus one is being shut down cause it are defenceless structures wich will make the job i do for my corp even more horrible and time consuming as it already is.

This change just sucks and a lot of people hate it as is clear in the comments already made. Why do you keep pushing this on when 75% doesn't want it? Are you so blind that when you think you have a good idea but the biggest portion of the community is against it you still have the need to push it through? It really makes no sense to me....
Zagdul
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2011-11-15 15:22:39 UTC
Might I advise you potentially start making use for the pirate tags and implement that they also have the blueprints as well?

Maybe they have faction ones that have special perks?

Dual Pane idea: Click!

CCP Please Implement
Anvil44
Avedis Corporation
The Vanguard Syndicate
#100 - 2011-11-15 15:26:01 UTC
Ya Huei wrote:
Aynen wrote:
From how I understand it, the survival of Ninja PI in wh space depends upon how many wormhole corps find it worth the effort to destroy the existing costums offices and put into place their own. If most of them do this, then that's the end of Ninja wormhole PI, if most of them don't, we're all good.


It's not about it being worth the effort. It's about getting rid of pesky freeloaders, and making the PI products more valuable.

I personally hope all WH corps with lowsec/highsec statics start popping the old school Customs offices on day 1 of the winter expansion.



I doubt it. First you need the replacements. Since you have to get the BPCs, then build the darn things, before you can deploy them, and if you have say 5 or 6 planets, you have to have everything needed to build all those items then get them in place. Very time consuming. Plus the danger of losing out on what you do have and having a down time where you can't produce fuel for your POS.

This is by no means a complain/whine (though it sounds like it). Just from a logistics point of view, it will be tough for us to get this working quickly in our unknown space.

I may have missed it in all this but are the BPOs being seeded ahead of time so we have opportunity to get production ready for these? That would be very beneficial I think. (thinking of the new BCs coming in to unknown to smash old customs offices for sh**s and giggles - I know I wouldBig smile)

I may not like you or your point of view but you have a right to voice it.