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Crime & Punishment

 
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Wardecs, Cost and Worth

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Sylphy
TSOE Po1ice
TSOE Consortium
#21 - 2013-08-12 10:14:22 UTC
Era'kanath wrote:
Say for example, you wardec someone that's mining in your system; taking everything you relatively own worth in the Billions of ISK worth in POS Fuel because theres very small amounts of it, in that particular location in the region.

Ie, a single system, and the only system in the region that ice belts spawn in (even then, relatively small amounts of ice spawn every 4 hours after the previous belt has despawned)

You spend 50mill wardec'ing a single corp to scare them off from the system, to protect your assets. But that corp has brang more corps, specifically targeting that ice belt for profits. So you end up spending several hundred million ISK in wardecs.

When the wardec is active, they leave their corp, and continue mining the ice belts relentlessly. Making you completely Waste the ISK, ontop of the major profit loss from the lack of POS fuel supplies.

This. Is. Utter. BS.

The corp being wardec'd, the members within that corp, should be Kept in the corp for at least a week (50mill per week? make one week worth it.)

So the people who leave the corp and continue ice mining in that system, we at least Bump them to get them out of the ice belt, so that we can keep at least the minimum profits to keep our industrial POS's running, keeping the eve markets running.

They report us, for bumping them, under the terms of "Harassment".
Quoted from the bumping thread, "CCP considers the act of bumping a normal game mechanic, and does not class the bumping of another player’s ship as an exploit. However, persistent targeting of a player with bumping by following them around after they have made an effort to move on to another location can be classified as harassment, and this will be judged on a case by case basis."

However, even though the capsuleers haven't removed themselves from the belt, we have been Warned under the terms of harassment.

Complete. Utter. BS.

Fix this CCP. Otherwise making us pay such high amounts of ISK per wardec, without a lock mechnic, makes legit wardecs Pointless, and Broken.

Suicide Ganking should Not be the main warfare mechanic of EVE.
Nullsec is another story, nullsec sov mechanics is fine in my perspective...

TL;DR

You spend ISK wardec'ing, and the wardec'd corp disbands but keeps doing whats causing the wardec. Disallowing kills completely.


Boo hoo. Poor pirate, learn to live with your neighbours

OR

Grow a pair and move to nullsec.

The character does not represent the views/opinions of its Corporation or Alliance.
Era'kanath
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#22 - 2013-08-12 22:07:09 UTC
[/quote]

Boo hoo. Poor pirate, learn to live with your neighbours

OR

Grow a pair and move to nullsec.
[/quote]

So what your saying is, "Highsec warfare mechanics dont mean anything to me, since your complaining about it ill tell you that you Suck"

Logic?

Been to nullsec, wasnt my cup of tea
If anything, wormhole space is more enjoyable.

"The more we sweat in peacetime, the less we bleed in war."

Barzai Mekhar
True Confusion
#23 - 2013-08-13 06:44:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Barzai Mekhar
Era'kanath wrote:

Sylphy wrote:

Boo hoo. Poor pirate, learn to live with your neighbours

OR

Grow a pair and move to nullsec.


So what your saying is, "Highsec warfare mechanics dont mean anything to me, since your complaining about it ill tell you that you Suck"

Logic?

Been to nullsec, wasnt my cup of tea
If anything, wormhole space is more enjoyable.



Soooo... everyone shooting everyone (nullsec) isn't your cup of tea, but people you want to shoot via highsec wardecs not being able to escape you is? Geee, what a suprise...

And in order to post a bit more productive - a thought:
Londo Mollari wrote:

Only an idiot fights a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the kingdom of idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts.


Well that is, unless you're in highsec EVE. Here, fighting 20 wars at once started over such trivial things as forum posts (/wave break-a-wish) is no problem at all. This is indicative of a substantial problem - the initiator of highsec wars has the choice of the resources he commits to the war, the defender is all in. Encounters can not be forced, but happen by chance. If the defenders were able to force the attacker into a confrontation along the lines of "be there or forfeit the war", we'd see alot less of these ridiculous wars for no reason other to generate targets...
Aln 'Al-Talib' Hasin
Doomheim
#24 - 2013-08-13 16:27:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Aln 'Al-Talib' Hasin
Don Purple wrote:
I can help. Twisted


Purple and the Snuggle Factory are working this same issue for me. My war targets largely dropped corp and continue mining unashamed. Sure, I snagged a couple stragglers but it's up to the gankers to drive the point home. I'll let you know how it turns out. If Don and friends do a good job, I'm considering giving them an additional sum for a gank on thier neutral boosting orca solely out of spite.
Maliandra
Doomheim
#25 - 2013-09-23 01:55:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Maliandra
OP:
Your complaints are well-warranted despite what people here say. With that said, I do disagree.

In the scenario you have layed out it is indeed unfortunate that the defending party can just drop corp like that and carry on with their business. However consider what happens if CCP does not allow you to drop corp. It gives griefing corps - which make up the majority if war decs - too much of an advantage.

You might not like that these ice miners got away from your dec, but you will be happy with this mechanic if you eventually become victimized by griefers. You will thank CCP endlessly that they allowed you to drop corp P

As for how to deal with these ice miners taking too much from your systems: Gank them. Yeah you can hire people but they might just come back and gank you, seeing as the chatter you'd relay to them would be "luls" worthy in their minds. I mean it is kind of funny... hire someone to gank people... and they gank you too. Always best to deal with such issues on your own if possible.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#26 - 2013-09-23 02:45:57 UTC
My suggested solution has been for some time that if someone drops corp during a wardec, killrights on them are generated for the wardeccing corp. More if they dropped before the dec goes live.

While I do agree that there's a problem with dec dodging, I don't think the solution is to forcibly keep people in corps that get decced. That just hurts player freedom.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#27 - 2013-09-23 05:39:16 UTC

OP wastes isk on a frivolous war dec.
OP is now butt hurt to discover that a frivolous war dec wastes isk.

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
Aesheera
Doomheim
#28 - 2013-09-23 09:36:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Aesheera
Ohhh..... the joys of low- and nullsec.

Highsec PvP is pretty busted in my humble opinion.
The eternal undock games, Tradehubtrollers and corpdroppers get old fast.

- I think my passion is misinterpreted as anger sometimes. And I don't think people are ready for the message that I'm delivering, and delivering with a sense of violent love.
Grunanca
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2013-09-23 09:58:34 UTC
Since you OP has posses to look out for, you clearly also have the people to attack corps with posses? Try and wardec a corp holding a high sec pos. With the work it takes to swap corp with such one, my guess is 0 of the core people in the corp will leave. With that said, I find it wierd you need to ice mine in order to pay for the posses you use to seed the market? If your posses arent even making profit enough to pay for themselves, you are doing something seriously wrong! You might as well just take them down and sell the ice instead.
AndromacheDarkstar
Integrated Insterstellar Holdings
#30 - 2013-09-23 11:11:44 UTC
Barzai Mekhar wrote:
Era'kanath wrote:

atm the defenders usually spend a rediculous amount of isk in hiring mercs to fight back; besides the fact that the attackers 'infrastructure' are the attackers ships themselves, the defenders have an equal chance in fighting back and winning (in terms of eve play anyways) fleet vs fleet (not accounting for numbers, skill, ship types, cost, etc)


In my experience highsec wardecs are rarely ever about "fleet vs fleet". All highsec wardecs I've witnessed so far came down to "Attacker logs on (or sits in a station in the system afk all day), periodically ganks any soft industrial targets on grid, boasts about what a great pvp player he is, loggs off". Usually he will use very cheap ships, so that he could lose a dozen for each mining vessel or filled hauler he blows up. No point in anyone hiring mercenaries, putting up defence fleets etc., the attackers simply wont fight if there's any chance of a coordinated defence showing up. The result? The defenders are seriously crippled in their ability to mine, run missions etc. while the attacker can just log on an alt in a different corp and go about his buisness with impunity.


Wow thats an incredibly innacurate view of high sec war decs. Yes there are people who will just sit on station ( mastercard you know who you are ) but a large number of high sec war dec corps spend allot of time watchlisting, hunting, baiting and prepping to kill targets. We also roam around allot looking for targets.

As for using cheap ships, i have no idea what war deccers you have been fighting but im not aware of many war deccers who dont fly around in very nicely fit faction/ T3 ships.

There is always a point in hiring mercs and defense fleets, all mercs can be beaten back with the right tools so find those tools and use them, or maybe buy a tech 1 crusier gang and catch some of them out by fighting back. Relax and enjoy your wardecs.
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2013-09-23 12:18:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
AndromacheDarkstar wrote:
Barzai Mekhar wrote:
Era'kanath wrote:

atm the defenders usually spend a rediculous amount of isk in hiring mercs to fight back; besides the fact that the attackers 'infrastructure' are the attackers ships themselves, the defenders have an equal chance in fighting back and winning (in terms of eve play anyways) fleet vs fleet (not accounting for numbers, skill, ship types, cost, etc)


In my experience highsec wardecs are rarely ever about "fleet vs fleet". All highsec wardecs I've witnessed so far came down to "Attacker logs on (or sits in a station in the system afk all day), periodically ganks any soft industrial targets on grid, boasts about what a great pvp player he is, loggs off". Usually he will use very cheap ships, so that he could lose a dozen for each mining vessel or filled hauler he blows up. No point in anyone hiring mercenaries, putting up defence fleets etc., the attackers simply wont fight if there's any chance of a coordinated defence showing up. The result? The defenders are seriously crippled in their ability to mine, run missions etc. while the attacker can just log on an alt in a different corp and go about his buisness with impunity.


Wow thats an incredibly innacurate view of high sec war decs. Yes there are people who will just sit on station ( mastercard you know who you are ) but a large number of high sec war dec corps spend allot of time watchlisting, hunting, baiting and prepping to kill targets. We also roam around allot looking for targets.

As for using cheap ships, i have no idea what war deccers you have been fighting but im not aware of many war deccers who dont fly around in very nicely fit faction/ T3 ships.

There is always a point in hiring mercs and defense fleets, all mercs can be beaten back with the right tools so find those tools and use them, or maybe buy a tech 1 crusier gang and catch some of them out by fighting back. Relax and enjoy your wardecs.


Confirmed... I am a WarDeccer.

However I am rarely seen if ever in a T1 ship. I normally fly blinged out T3's or some sort of Blinged out Pirate/Tech II ship.

Yes.. I have seen wardeccers fly around in T1 Cruisers... but these are they same guys that pay me to leave them alone when I keep joining all their wars as allies. So you really don't have anything to fear from them if you have atleast have 1 dude barely competent in a ship.

On The OP's rant about wasting 50mil. If 50mil is alot of isk for you maybe wardecs should not be something you must do.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#32 - 2013-09-23 14:06:18 UTC
Players should not be able to hide out forever in NPC corporations. Making NPC corp taxes go up substantially after a toon reaches 14 days of age would be a strong incentivizer to get them into a player corp (or creating their own). i.e. 50%+ NPC corp tax rate.

Also, players should not be able to duck wars by corp hopping. A one week delay should be implemented on leaving (or closing) a corporation, if it has active wars

As counter-balance to these proposed changes, wardec costs could be increased and/or the number of outgoing wars a corp/alliance can declare at one time capped (i.e. 10 or 15 max).

The specific numbers are brainstorming and can be tweaked obviously, but the key is that wardec evasion should not be as easy as it is today. I suspect however that even despite the increased ISK sinks, CCP will not do this, as its all about carebear love these days... :(

F



Would you like to know more?
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#33 - 2013-09-23 15:00:46 UTC
I'm sorry, but i don't see war Dec evasion being the issue here. Even if you could Dec NPC corps and paid to Dec every corp that came to "your" ice belt, you wouldn't solve the issue. new corps, new people, New miners would keep coming. And even if you clear out all the small groups, eventually a bigger fish will come along and clear you out.

The best solution is to find a better way to profit such that cost of fuel isn't an issue.

Setup jumpclones and have a weekly mining op elsewhere.
Hunt anomalies and mine minerals that make more profit.
Streamline your poses, especially if in hi sec such that you use less.

Clearing out the belt so you own it will only last until you attract the attention of other griefers or a bigger corp that kicks you out. It's better to find ways to reduce ice use or find/fund alternative sources.
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