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Simple change to sov mechanics

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mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-09-23 02:41:20 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Infinity Ziona wrote:
They still could. The only change would be the server not babysitting the system. The players who hold it would have to ensure it wasnt being attacked rather than relying on the server to tell them.

Imo player actions and player made content (such as sneak attacks in deserted systems) should have priority over automation as much as possible.


This isn't what you said, though. You said, "Null sec should be used for fighting for and keeping space not renting space you don't need to others", full stop. Yet if I've conquered a ton of extra space, well, I can farm it out to renters to use it (and report back to me if an intruder tries to come in), while maintaining core regions for myself. All that space would be monitored by people living in it, rather than the server, and you'd be back here talking about "the next fix", about how large alliances "shouldn't be able to this" or "can't be allowed to that", as though the large scale playstyle is somehow invalid.


So yeah. I'd be the last person to disagree that sov needs a lot of work, but I'd rather it be done by people who know the mechanics and have less of an axe to grind.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2013-09-23 05:43:21 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
They still could. The only change would be the server not babysitting the system. The players who hold it would have to ensure it wasnt being attacked rather than relying on the server to tell them.

Imo player actions and player made content (such as sneak attacks in deserted systems) should have priority over automation as much as possible.


This isn't what you said, though. You said, "Null sec should be used for fighting for and keeping space not renting space you don't need to others", full stop. Yet if I've conquered a ton of extra space, well, I can farm it out to renters to use it (and report back to me if an intruder tries to come in), while maintaining core regions for myself. All that space would be monitored by people living in it, rather than the server, and you'd be back here talking about "the next fix", about how large alliances "shouldn't be able to this" or "can't be allowed to that", as though the large scale playstyle is somehow invalid.


So yeah. I'd be the last person to disagree that sov needs a lot of work, but I'd rather it be done by people who know the mechanics and have less of an axe to grind.

If you want to argue my fallacious motivations suggested by the guy trolling this thread you do so elsewhere. Do you have any comment on the change I suggested?

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#23 - 2013-09-23 08:11:02 UTC
Quote:
If you want to argue my fallacious motivations suggested by the guy trolling this thread you do so elsewhere. Do you have any comment on the change I suggested?


You mean this?

And even if you discount the fact that there's more butthurt in that thread than on the average Tailor Swift CD, it's still very relevant, because it explains why you are posting what you are. It's the only experience with sov that you have had, and it has effected your perceptions of the mechanic. Which, by the way, doesn't disqualify you from talking about the topic, but it certainly does need to be taken into consideration by people who you want to take you seriously.

Oh, and your idea is just plain bad, and it shows that the person suggesting it has little to no idea what they are talking about, that's my comment.

Sov sucks. Your idea (at least, it's second draft anyway) would make it suck slightly more, and does not address the underlying problems in any way. It's an obvious "Grr, Goons"-motivated targeted nerf to something that you personally don't like.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2013-09-23 09:19:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
If you want to argue my fallacious motivations suggested by the guy trolling this thread you do so elsewhere. Do you have any comment on the change I suggested?


You mean this?

And even if you discount the fact that there's more butthurt in that thread than on the average Tailor Swift CD, it's still very relevant, because it explains why you are posting what you are. It's the only experience with sov that you have had, and it has effected your perceptions of the mechanic. Which, by the way, doesn't disqualify you from talking about the topic, but it certainly does need to be taken into consideration by people who you want to take you seriously.

Oh, and your idea is just plain bad, and it shows that the person suggesting it has little to no idea what they are talking about, that's my comment.

Sov sucks. Your idea (at least, it's second draft anyway) would make it suck slightly more, and does not address the underlying problems in any way. It's an obvious "Grr, Goons"-motivated targeted nerf to something that you personally don't like.

I'm not the person stalking my threads and making personal attacks. How about you engage your brain and tell me what is wrong with it rather than "your idea is just plain bad" or are you really a 3rd grader?

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#25 - 2013-09-23 09:37:31 UTC
Quote:
I'm not the person stalking my threads and making personal attacks. How about you engage your brain and tell me what is wrong with it rather than "your idea is just plain bad" or are you really a 3rd grader?


I already have.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2013-09-23 09:44:02 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
I'm not the person stalking my threads and making personal attacks. How about you engage your brain and tell me what is wrong with it rather than "your idea is just plain bad" or are you really a 3rd grader?


I already have.

Nah all you've done is make bitter personal attacks and troll.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#27 - 2013-09-23 09:51:35 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
I'm not the person stalking my threads and making personal attacks. How about you engage your brain and tell me what is wrong with it rather than "your idea is just plain bad" or are you really a 3rd grader?


I already have.

Nah all you've done is make bitter personal attacks and troll.


Pointing out that your opinion is obviously colored by a failed attempt to take sov is not a personal attack. Telling you that your idea is godawful is not a personal attack.

And what I am about to tell you, that you clearly have a problem with me and have thus only skimmed what I said and as a result think I'm trolling and haven't already explained perfectly well why your idea is godawful, is not a personal attack.

And telling you to get over yourself isn't trolling. It's actually fairly helpful advice in EVE.

Just because you can't take sov (all on your own, what's more) and tell yourself that somehow automated warnings are at fault does not make that a problem for anyone else.

Sov is broken. Yep, has been for years, pretty much since they implemented it, and it has TONS of problems. But receiving evemails when your assets are under attack is not among them.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2013-09-23 10:06:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
I'm not the person stalking my threads and making personal attacks. How about you engage your brain and tell me what is wrong with it rather than "your idea is just plain bad" or are you really a 3rd grader?


I already have.

Nah all you've done is make bitter personal attacks and troll.


Pointing out that your opinion is obviously colored by a failed attempt to take sov is not a personal attack. Telling you that your idea is godawful is not a personal attack.

And what I am about to tell you, that you clearly have a problem with me and have thus only skimmed what I said and as a result think I'm trolling and haven't already explained perfectly well why your idea is godawful, is not a personal attack.

And telling you to get over yourself isn't trolling. It's actually fairly helpful advice in EVE.

Just because you can't take sov (all on your own, what's more) and tell yourself that somehow automated warnings are at fault does not make that a problem for anyone else.

Sov is broken. Yep, has been for years, pretty much since they implemented it, and it has TONS of problems. But receiving evemails when your assets are under attack is not among them.

You're totally refusing to tell me WHY its a bad idea... try harder.

Edit: Oh yeah I have never had nor ever wanted to take sov, nor even attempted to take sov therefore I can not have made a failed attempt to take sov.

I tried to blow up a customs office and shoot an onlining TCU. How the hell is that trying to take sov :)

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#29 - 2013-09-23 10:08:54 UTC
Quote:
You're totally refusing to tell me WHY its a bad idea... try harder.


Quote:
Sov is broken. Yep, has been for years, pretty much since they implemented it, and it has TONS of problems. But receiving evemails when your assets are under attack is not among them.


And, the only reason you think it's a problem is because you are looking to spread blame for a failed attempt at taking sov. That's it, the end.

You are arguing about a non issue, and that's why it's a bad idea.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2013-09-23 10:12:11 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
You're totally refusing to tell me WHY its a bad idea... try harder.


Quote:
Sov is broken. Yep, has been for years, pretty much since they implemented it, and it has TONS of problems. But receiving evemails when your assets are under attack is not among them.


And, the only reason you think it's a problem is because you are looking to spread blame for a failed attempt at taking sov. That's it, the end.

You are arguing about a non issue, and that's why it's a bad idea.

I have never tried to take sov lol. I tried to blow up a onlining goon TCU and a few months ago I shot a customs office. That's hardly trying to take sov. It was more trying to damage some abandoned stuff.

When you read words, you need to try to UNDERSTAND them not just fill in the meaning with your own silliness. Now tell me why its a bad idea? I'm suspecting you don't know yourself.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#31 - 2013-09-23 10:15:05 UTC
Quote:
I'm suspecting you don't know yourself.


Since you're determined to make this go in circles.

Quote:
You are arguing about a non issue, and that's why it's a bad idea.


Non. Issue.

As in, it's only a problem for you. Also, if the two are unrelated, which I highly doubt, their timing is suspect.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2013-09-23 10:21:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
I'm suspecting you don't know yourself.


Since you're determined to make this go in circles.

Quote:
You are arguing about a non issue, and that's why it's a bad idea.


Non. Issue.

As in, it's only a problem for you. Also, if the two are unrelated, which I highly doubt, their timing is suspect.

Wow.

Let me give you a bit of help.

If I have an opinion you don't agree with - "The sky is red" - then you don't simply say "its a non issue", you say "no, the sky is blue because.... your opinion here".

You see, since we're dealing with opinions, its not sufficient to tell me my opinion is invalid because your opinion negates it. This is the basis of communication and discussion. When you say "its a non issue" but you fail to explain why, then you are simply trying to enforce your own opinion on others without any explanation. This shows you lack the ability to properly communicate.

So please, if you would, explain why its a non-issue?

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#33 - 2013-09-23 10:25:27 UTC
Quote:
Wow.

Let me give you a bit of help.

If I have an opinion you don't agree with - "The sky is red" - then you don't simply say "its a non issue", you say "no, the sky is blue because.... your opinion here".

You see, since we're dealing with opinions, its not sufficient to tell me my opinion is invalid because your opinion negates it. This is basis of communication and discussion. When you say "its a non issue" but you fail to explain why, then you are simply trying to enforce your own opinion on others without any explanation. This shows you lack the ability to properly communicate.

So please, if you would, explain why its a non-issue?


Heh, no. If you say, "the sky is red", I say "what are you on?" or "lay off the sauce".

Same thing applies here.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2013-09-23 10:29:38 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
Wow.

Let me give you a bit of help.

If I have an opinion you don't agree with - "The sky is red" - then you don't simply say "its a non issue", you say "no, the sky is blue because.... your opinion here".

You see, since we're dealing with opinions, its not sufficient to tell me my opinion is invalid because your opinion negates it. This is basis of communication and discussion. When you say "its a non issue" but you fail to explain why, then you are simply trying to enforce your own opinion on others without any explanation. This shows you lack the ability to properly communicate.

So please, if you would, explain why its a non-issue?


Heh, no. If you say, "the sky is red", I say "what are you on?" or "lay off the sauce".

Same thing applies here.

Ok then unless you have something of value to add to the discussion Ill simply ignore your ranting on it. Have a nice one :)

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
slywolf Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-09-23 15:53:36 UTC
Well I believe you should only get a message from the server if your in the same region that something of yours is getting attacked. communication should only travel so far. I can't see that market in a different region, why should I be able to see something getting attacked? but I do believe I should know if something is getting attacked if i'm near it, at least in the same region, that way I can go and defend it. I do believe someone should be able to take a area and control that area, but they must also defend it, even if they don't utilize it at the time. denial of an area is another fun part of the game, hence gate camps :)
Ezslider
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#36 - 2013-09-23 16:50:34 UTC
slywolf Ormand wrote:
Well I believe you should only get a message from the server if your in the same region that something of yours is getting attacked. communication should only travel so far. I can't see that market in a different region, why should I be able to see something getting attacked? but I do believe I should know if something is getting attacked if i'm near it, at least in the same region, that way I can go and defend it. I do believe someone should be able to take a area and control that area, but they must also defend it, even if they don't utilize it at the time. denial of an area is another fun part of the game, hence gate camps :)



I think I see your logic as far as markets and distance...however I can see all contracts all over eve. So, how does that work. in the scheme of things.

What I do not understand is why is the big push to punish folks that actually took the initiative and the willingness to take on full time job herding autistic squirrels.
LujTic
Green Visstick High
#37 - 2013-09-24 10:35:49 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
...
Sov is broken. Yep, has been for years, pretty much since they implemented it, and it has TONS of problems. But receiving evemails when your assets are under attack is not among them.

You're totally refusing to tell me WHY its a bad idea...

It's bad because the SOV mechanics are intended to trigger PvP. Your idea is aimed at avoiding PvP.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2013-09-24 11:28:44 UTC
LujTic wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
...
Sov is broken. Yep, has been for years, pretty much since they implemented it, and it has TONS of problems. But receiving evemails when your assets are under attack is not among them.

You're totally refusing to tell me WHY its a bad idea...

It's bad because the SOV mechanics are intended to trigger PvP. Your idea is aimed at avoiding PvP.

I don't see how it would cause less PvP.

IMO the timers make it possible for the following to occur:

(1) Goonswarm, currently the biggest and most powerful alliance drops TCU's all over a region. Nobody attacks them because they know that once they go into reinforced, in 24 hours they'll have to fight an un-winnable fight against Goons who will have the time to gather and prepare. Less fights.

(2) A powerful allliance like Goons has lots of space, more than they can actually use. They hardly go into that space at all. Instead of using it they rent it out to other groups. As long as those groups are renting out the space they're not fighting for space. Other groups that also rent out space from the same alliance don't fight their neighbor renters because they'll get kicked. Less fights.

(3) A small roaming gang wants to blap some assets, they know if they try to blap anyone but a small corps or alliances assets that they'll get owned. Since most of the space in game is now owned by large alliances, they don't blap stuff. No roaming gangs. Less fights.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
El 1974
Green Visstick High
#39 - 2013-09-24 12:16:08 UTC
So, if I understand it correctly, you're saying fight against Goons are unwinnable, so sov mechanics should be changed so people can take Goon sov and destroy their structures without a fight?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#40 - 2013-09-24 12:20:56 UTC
El 1974 wrote:
So, if I understand it correctly, you're saying fight against Goons are unwinnable, so sov mechanics should be changed so people can take Goon sov and destroy their structures without a fight?


That's what I took away from it, yeah.

"Please change something I personally dislike, because Grr Goons!" (because, God knows that you shouldn't be able to have a victory you earned so long as people dislike you)

Also, please note how those examples given above are not due to a mechanic, but due to a meta element. Cowardice. CCP can't fix cowardice.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.