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CEMWPA Legislature
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Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#1 - 2013-09-22 16:33:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Eran Mintor
So this has been brought up in the IGS and I do want some real answers so I figured I'd ask here as well.

Is there a copy of the legislature the four nations signed to bring about FW? I've searched chronicles and news pieces when the war started, did a google search but it only brought up IGS posts. There seems to be no copy of the legislation which is very strange for legal reasons. I'm somewhat disappointed I just now had this question...

If anyone could direct me to a valid source I'd appreciate it.

Edit : and if not why doesn't CCP make these things? I'd be interested to hear what rights the occupying factions have in their systems.
Ollie Rundle
#2 - 2013-09-23 00:19:26 UTC
Maybe patch or expansion notes from way back when? I honestly don't know where the 'in game explanation' for FW was taken from - I have a vague memory of remembering the CEWPA term from a chronicle or something, but I'm not certain.

In any case, it can be presumed that all four empires are signatories to it as the proxy that is faction war doesn't really work consistently in any other way.

As for this:

Quote:
Edit : and if not why doesn't CCP make these things? I'd be interested to hear what rights the occupying factions have in their systems.

Because EVE Online is an internet spaceships game and not a UN Sim. Lol

More seriously, while I know it's the obvious answer, it probably has something to do with prioritisation of things that really need to be done and the human resources available to do them.
Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#3 - 2013-09-23 02:37:49 UTC
The chronicle you may be thinking of is this.

To my knowledge there is no actual writing of laws but figured I'd ask just incase. Patch notes and news pieces explain why but not details of the agreement. I understand it's probably off the list of priorities but things like these add a lot of depth to what goes on in EVE. For example it would be more painful to Minmatar if they knew occupancy of Minmatar territories would result in the enslavement of Matari (if the laws stated that occupied territories are considered property of their occupier. Amarr can't enslave people outside their Empire but does this war open up these lowsec territories to possible enslavement?).

Documents like this might take a couple hours if that to create. I'm not convinced it's the biggest waste of time.
Ollie Rundle
#4 - 2013-09-23 05:46:39 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:
The chronicle you may be thinking of is this.

To my knowledge there is no actual writing of laws but figured I'd ask just incase. Patch notes and news pieces explain why but not details of the agreement. I understand it's probably off the list of priorities but things like these add a lot of depth to what goes on in EVE. For example it would be more painful to Minmatar if they knew occupancy of Minmatar territories would result in the enslavement of Matari (if the laws stated that occupied territories are considered property of their occupier. Amarr can't enslave people outside their Empire but does this war open up these lowsec territories to possible enslavement?).

Documents like this might take a couple hours if that to create. I'm not convinced it's the biggest waste of time.


Yeah, that was it - thanks for finding it for me. :)

I don't disagree with any of the ideas in your second paragraph. Nor the point about documents taking a short time to create. Beyond the human resources needed though there are perhaps other things as well.

Part of the problems with having hard rules in RP is that people will then use those rules in their most literal sense - often using absence of something in "official" documents as evidence for why it can't be so. While it's possible that this is one explanation, it's equally likely that some things might have been left out because Devs aren't experts in the field of corp law, socio-economic analysis, religion, politics or whatever else the document pertains to.

In a tabletop game that's no big deal - if players find gaps the GM is there to immediately address any questions or disputes they have because of it and arbitrate on both the letter and the intent behind the document they created. That doesn't work so well in a game with tens if not hundreds of thousands of players.

In short, there's give and take that has to happen in order to make a story or RP work. You need enough detail to suspend disbelief but shouldn't have to send your Devs to night school classes on how to draft international treaties in order to cover the derp that full documentation has the potential to inspire.

From that chronicle? We know that CONCORD and the four empires signed off on faction war. We know that the Jovians played some part. We get an idea for what top military commanders in each of the empires thought of the deal. With a bit of common sense we can RP something believable without the need for anything more involved or black and white to guide us.
Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#5 - 2013-09-23 06:09:24 UTC
Well here's my latest thoughts about it.

I've received a few OOC emails advising me to step down on my stance on the IGS in regards to the CEMWPA legislature of which I can understand the reasoning for; the reasoning being that while I may say that Eran has never seen the documents, saying they are not public knowledge or publicly accessible is tantamount to "godmodding." While I do in some ways agree that a line could be crossed there, I also believe claiming to know what the legislature allows and doesn't allow legally when that would, for the most part, be unsupported assumptions to be crossing a line.

What if the legislature isn't publicly accessible? What if the empires are trying to hide something in this legislature from everyone? In reality the CEMWPA is quite an absurd idea. It's one thing to sanction wars between willing parties, it's another to submit a very select civilian population unwillingly to war at the mercy of "immortals". How were the systems decided upon anyways? Did the empires hate the people in these low-sec systems and wanted them to endure an endless conflict? I do have a lot of questions about this and I don't expect many to be answered though it is something I've been thinking about.

This war is clearly not going to end anytime soon. There are no real objectives behind it beyond capturing enemy territory for profit and little in the way of in-game results between the empires. With that said, why would four nations agree to a never-ending war where they have much to lose (civilians, morale, resources, etc.)? Tensions were at an all-time high at the time of it's enforcement, no doubt, and inaction would've probably lead to a worse situation, but trying to put FW into an IC reality where things should make sense leaves a lot unanswered. Obviously things were chosen to empower good gameplay, but there's no reason why we should have to make up conflicting ideas about if the CEMWPA is public knowledge and what it allows in an IC perspective.

While I do RP as Eran not having seen any real documentation of the CEMWPA, I do this not only because it doesn't exist OOC, but also because I think it would be torn apart if any real public group or political party got their hands on it, therefore it's best it remains "locked up". At least, this is my current feelings towards the ordeal.

Anyways, I hope the discussion continues. Perhaps Falcon will bless us with his presence.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#6 - 2013-09-23 08:33:46 UTC
I've always treated the CEWPA laws in much the same way international agreements are treated in the real world: sovereign nations will continue to do as they please, as is in their interest, irrespective of international agreements. Sometimes this means they might abide by the agreements that they sign, sometimes it does not. The laws then end up becoming farcical because the bodies that are intended to enforce them (The UN in the real world, CONCORD in EVE) have limited ability to do so independently. They just become a bit of propaganda or PR where everyone calls each other out for breaking international agreements while doing much the same thing they accuse others of doing in having broken them.

Does it matter if we don't have the exact terms and conditions available? I don't think so. Aside from perhaps adding some depth to the act of having some people go, "Oh, you guys are breaking international laws, this is serious business!" to which is responded, "Hah! Like I should care! I'll do what I want anyway. Because I can."

FW to me is not intended to make sense, the same way many wars can last years or decades costing significant losses in life, materiel and civilian casualties and then wondering what it was all for in the end, all things considered. The current war with the empires just seems to be one of those situations where they decided upon a having limited conflict fought by capsuleers with CONCORD establishing the rules of the game and playing nominal referee. I think it's just now become an inescapable quagmire for them: they can't back down because it will be seen as being weak or surrendering to the enemy but at the same time they realize escalating to total war will lead to even greater destruction and loss of life than the CEWPA war.

Kurilaivonen|Concern