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Kronos needs a damage bonus buff

Author
Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
#1 - 2011-11-14 07:03:10 UTC
As the title says... This ship really needs a damage bonus buff and it needs it now to coincide with overall gallente buff coming this winter.

Even with the buff to rails it will still do like 100 less dps than other marauders. I do understand that there will always be the worst, and if kronos has to be the worst dps marauder then so be it, but at least bring its dps up a notch. I think this can be best and most easily done by increasing the ship's damage bonus a little.
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#2 - 2011-11-14 07:05:35 UTC
A Kronos with more dps is a Vindicator, more or less. : /

thhief ghabmoef

Arthur Frayn
V.O.F.L IRON CORE
#3 - 2011-11-14 09:04:58 UTC
With hybrid rebalance, Vindicator needs its 37.5% damage buff put back down to 25%. After winter, you will get 1000 dps with 425's and 1600 dps with neutrons. Drones not even factored in there.
Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
#4 - 2011-11-14 10:46:14 UTC
I'm talking about Kronos, not Vindicator :p

Anyways, got home to play with the winter expension version of EFT now and here is the comparison for all 4 marauders at equal settings

4 x highest tier guns/missile launchers + 3 x faction damage mod + 1 x T2 rate of fire rig + short range T1 ammo (non faction)

1. Golem 947 DPS (more realistic number would be 873 considering Golem would more likely have missile range rigs instead)

2. Vargur 876 DPS (using 800 ACs)

3. Paladin 864 DPS (using Tachs)

4. Kronos 759 DPS (using 425mm)

This is what I was talking about. If Kronos' DPS came to around 820 or so, I would say fair enough, someone has to come last right? But the difference is just way too big, and it's not like Kronos gets a drone advantage as a gallente ship since all marauders have same bandwidth.
pussnheels
Viziam
#5 - 2011-11-14 11:31:03 UTC
Pookoko wrote:
As the title says... This ship really needs a damage bonus buff and it needs it now to coincide with overall gallente buff coming this winter.

Even with the buff to rails it will still do like 100 less dps than other marauders. I do understand that there will always be the worst, and if kronos has to be the worst dps marauder then so be it, but at least bring its dps up a notch. I think this can be best and most easily done by increasing the ship's damage bonus a little.

Some people are way too obsessed by what EFT tells them
I recently trained and bought myself a kronos , after using a paladin for a long time
my opinion a Kronos does it job (pve) just aswell as the other marauders
Except for the vargur i flown evey marauder now on different characters and in my opinion they all handle differently
the Kronos might be the slowest of all in completing missions but it is still a good pve ship and just like the paladin it excells against its natural enemies
and guess what with the moderate upcoming hybrid buff it will even be better
Learn how to fly it in pve all i can say

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire

Dark Voynix
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2011-11-14 11:53:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Dark Voynix
Pookoko wrote:
I'm talking about Kronos, not Vindicator :p

Anyways, got home to play with the winter expension version of EFT now and here is the comparison for all 4 marauders at equal settings

4 x highest tier guns/missile launchers + 3 x faction damage mod + 1 x T2 rate of fire rig + short range T1 ammo (non faction)

1. Golem 947 DPS (more realistic number would be 873 considering Golem would more likely have missile range rigs instead)

2. Vargur 876 DPS (using 800 ACs)

3. Paladin 864 DPS (using Tachs)

4. Kronos 759 DPS (using 425mm)

This is what I was talking about. If Kronos' DPS came to around 820 or so, I would say fair enough, someone has to come last right? But the difference is just way too big, and it's not like Kronos gets a drone advantage as a gallente ship since all marauders have same bandwidth.


You are comparing 800AC ( short range weapons) with 425mm rails? Compare rails with artillery, or at least consider that where ac are in deep falloff rails are in optimal ( or close t optimal) range.

I'm not saying that Kronos was fine as it is ( in fact it was crappy and worthles to use), but the new expansion could give it a life and you rould reconsider how you read EFT infos.


Blasters on the other hands SadSadSad
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2011-11-14 11:55:02 UTC
no , it needs its weapons to get fixed
Songbird
#8 - 2011-11-14 16:08:24 UTC
The whole problem is that gallente short range weapons are really short ranged, while caldari and minm can do daamge comfortably at 45 km. As for tachs they're in a class of their own.

If you put blasters and use a mwd I'm sure your DPS will go way higher than that :P
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#9 - 2011-11-14 17:52:26 UTC
There are very few missions where you can get away with MWD + Blasters in a mission....

thhief ghabmoef

JackStraw56
Run Like an Antelope
#10 - 2011-11-14 18:26:35 UTC
Pookoko wrote:
I'm talking about Kronos, not Vindicator :p

Anyways, got home to play with the winter expension version of EFT now and here is the comparison for all 4 marauders at equal settings

4 x highest tier guns/missile launchers + 3 x faction damage mod + 1 x T2 rate of fire rig + short range T1 ammo (non faction)

1. Golem 947 DPS (more realistic number would be 873 considering Golem would more likely have missile range rigs instead)

2. Vargur 876 DPS (using 800 ACs)

3. Paladin 864 DPS (using Tachs)

4. Kronos 759 DPS (using 425mm)

This is what I was talking about. If Kronos' DPS came to around 820 or so, I would say fair enough, someone has to come last right? But the difference is just way too big, and it's not like Kronos gets a drone advantage as a gallente ship since all marauders have same bandwidth.

You just compared apples to oranges to kumquats (some of those are short range weapons and some long range).
Sydney Nelson
Nelson Universal Aerospace
#11 - 2011-11-14 20:21:32 UTC
I'm going to start this post by saying, I don't know anything about the Golem, and know very little about missiles.
So, I will probably not say anything intelligent about-it.
Having said that;

The OP's choise of weapons is actually fairly-legit...

I don't think anyone uses Arty on the Vargur (they don't even fit do they?).

On the Paladin, I think most people would ACTUALLY use T2 Pulses (w/Scorch) over Tachs. W/Scorch DPS is almost the same, but ranger is higher. W/Multi DPS is way higher than Tachs for close-range engagements. Not to mention, Pulses use WAY less PG, and Cap.

For the Kronos, nobody is going to us Blasters, 90% of Gallente pilots use Rails for missions (the other 10% are just trying-out Blasters and will be going-back to Rails once they realize how much faster they are).

Not sure why the T2 ROF rig though, I think most people go with the DMG rig, it doesn't matter too-much, but I think a comparison without the rig is more applicable, as some pilots will opt to use CCCs or ANPs or something-else...

One major consideration the OP forgot to take-into account is range-mods and DMG at-range. A Vargur will most-likely fit TEs in the lows with the Gyros. A smart Railgun pilot knows a Tracking-computer (or 2) are worth thier weight in gold. Some Amarr pilots use TCs too.

If you take-into account range-mods, graph the DPS profiles and compare-them you get a much better idea of how-much DPS each ship is ACTUALLY doing.
The Vargur's DPS looks great, but it only does that-much at optimal.
The Paladin out-DPSs the Varg with Multi and with Scorch, it does more DPS at any-range past 16km.
The Kronos out-DPSs the Varg anywhere past 26km, it doesn't out-DPS the Paladin until 60km though.

Over-all I think the Paladin is a little OP since Scorch is a little OP and you can switch between Multi/Scorch instantly. It could be argued however that this is ballanced by the fact that it only does EM/Therm.
Varg looks-good at-first but, the window where it out-DPSs things is smaller. It does have the plus that it can select dmg-type however.
Kronos def needs a buff as it currently stands, and I think it will still need a small dmg buff after the winter expansion to match-up with the others. It can also not select DMG types.
On missions where Kin/Therm are required, and the rats are typically over 40km, the Kronos is the top choise though.

Really, what it boils-down to is;
Where are you missioning?
What are the Rats' resists?
What range are they spread-out at?

Most serious missioners use a Nightmare/Paladin for EM/Therm, and a Mach/Varg for everything else.
I know lots of people use the Golem, and I'm pretty-sure it's good, but like I said, I don't know *** about it.
Different ships for different situations.
Unfortunately the Kronos has less situations where it accels.
Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
#12 - 2011-11-14 22:38:27 UTC
I'm aware of the damage drop in fall off using ACs but as sydney said i should have been clearer about the fact that i wa comparing dps between most used setups (no arties for vargur), so my apologies about that. I do fly kronos but i also fly nightmare and mach and i suppose my gripe with kronos is more based on my anecdotal evidence and i brought eft numbers to put it In numerical perspective. Putting this for aside, do you guys seriously think kronos needa no damage buff? As i feel that its lacking and i do use it in gallente space :p
Songbird
#13 - 2011-11-15 13:04:02 UTC
of course it's lacking but you can't just give 7.5% dps to 1 ship and 5% to all the rest... well you can if it's a pirate ship but standardized t2 ships should all have the same bonuses.

Rails really need 10% bonus to rof on top of the dps bonus to be on even grounds with other weapon systems - too bad we're not getting it.
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2011-11-15 13:25:52 UTC
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
A Kronos with more dps is a Vindicator, more or less. : /


Except the Kronos and Vindicator clearly have two different purposes, judging by their bonuses.

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?

Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#15 - 2011-11-15 13:36:04 UTC
Arthur Frayn wrote:
With hybrid rebalance, Vindicator needs its 37.5% damage buff put back down to 25%. After winter, you will get 1000 dps with 425's and 1600 dps with neutrons. Drones not even factored in there.


Hurrrr duuuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrr.

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com

Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#16 - 2011-11-15 14:23:06 UTC
4 guns x100% dmg = 8guns dps
+3 utility slots (neuts yummy)

This ship doens't need more dmg bonus, the guns or the ammo are in need of some serious dmg upgrade, my option would be the ammo with 50% dmg on top of what they actually have, fair trade off for such ridiculous engagement range.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2011-11-15 14:34:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Knight
JackStraw56 wrote:

You just compared apples to oranges to kumquats (some of those are short range weapons and some long range).

you are just dumb if you cant compare some pve ships

btw vargur is the best, oh and torp golem sucky , little speed for target and torp dmg just dropped by 30+%
+vasted torps flying into the nothing after you kill that target
Sam Bowein
Sense Amid Madness
#18 - 2011-11-15 15:46:00 UTC
Damage comparison is great, but you also have to factor in damage type.

For example, the Paladin does great damage on paper, but the average rat resistance to EM is fairly high.
Try shooting Guristas or Angels with tachyons, it won't work as well as with railguns ;)
Arazel Chainfire
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2011-11-15 22:15:44 UTC
Sam Bowein wrote:
Damage comparison is great, but you also have to factor in damage type.

For example, the Paladin does great damage on paper, but the average rat resistance to EM is fairly high.
Try shooting Guristas or Angels with tachyons, it won't work as well as with railguns ;)


A nightmare is more effective in gallente space than the current kronos. After the buff, that might not be the case, but the kronos really is an anemic POS. A mach is even better in gallente space than the nightmare is. To be honest, you only really need to look at ranges between 5km and 50km, as that is where pretty much all of the rats are going to be. In this range, 3 TE's worth of falloff + the better tracking and damage types of autocannons make them superior, even with you fighting in falloff. Do remember, a mach/vargur at optimal + 1/2 falloff is still doing 80% of its dps... and when you have 70km falloff + 5km optimal you have more than enough effective dps in missions.

As for the great damage, anyone who doesn't use tach's on a nightmare or paladin is generally doing it wrong. Which means that they have full multifrequency damage out to about 40km (the only exception is it is generally better to take pulses against angels). You also usually have approx 40km falloff, meaning that optimal+falloff is about 60km. You are doing enough thermal damage to be effective, and even with the EM damage you are still outdpsing railguns. And there is really no excuse for a faction fit marauder to not break 1000dps at range. Heck, get rid of the useless web bonus for another damage bonus if that is what it takes, as it is, there is no reason, at all, to fly a kronos - even the dominix does a better job.

As to experience, I've flown missions in gallente space for several years, on and off, and used the kronos, domi, golem, nightmare, mach, maelstrom, and probably more that I've forgotten about. I honestly believe that gallente should be better in gallente space than anyone else... as it is, they are outdone by every single other race in their own space.

-Arazel
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#20 - 2011-11-16 00:09:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Pookoko wrote:
I'm talking about Kronos, not Vindicator :p

Anyways, got home to play with the winter expension version of EFT now and here is the comparison for all 4 marauders at equal settings

4 x highest tier guns/missile launchers + 3 x faction damage mod + 1 x T2 rate of fire rig + short range T1 ammo (non faction)

1. Golem 947 DPS (more realistic number would be 873 considering Golem would more likely have missile range rigs instead)

2. Vargur 876 DPS (using 800 ACs)

3. Paladin 864 DPS (using Tachs)

4. Kronos 759 DPS (using 425mm)

This is what I was talking about. If Kronos' DPS came to around 820 or so, I would say fair enough, someone has to come last right? But the difference is just way too big, and it's not like Kronos gets a drone advantage as a gallente ship since all marauders have same bandwidth.


A few comments:
- Its a mistake to not use T2/Faction ammo where appropriate. You can't get a full picture of how the ship will perform without factoring it in. Here's a somewhat old rundown of my opinion on the subject: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com/2011/10/26/on-t1-vs-faction-ammo/
- Factoring in 5% hardwirings can change everything - for instance a ship that gets 1000 DPS with no drones will benefit far more than a ship that gets 1000 DPS with half of it being drones. You should totally include them (or 3% at the very minimum).
- You didn't specify fits, so the comparison is kinda meaningless. You should really use the "standard" Marauder fits - which means 4 BCUs and missile range rigs on the Golem. At any rate, how well you apply DPS is a key metric in how effective you are as a mission runner.
- You didn't factor in the idea of how much DPS you do at various ranges. This can be make or break, and the Vargur's ability to not have to switch ammo from long->close range at 40km is kinda a big deal for convenience.
- You didn't factor in how well each ship performs against the various factions. For instance, the Golem and Vargur both have pretty decent damage type selection, but running a Paladin against Angels/Guristas is a lesson in frustration.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

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