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FW - Kill the Tier System
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Sleban
Pole Shift Incorporated
#101 - 2013-09-21 22:36:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Sleban
Quote:
Actualli in EVE: you kill someone and what you earn (in term of direct wealth gain) is just the victim loot:


- Well, there's bounties as well sometimes but I see what you're getting at.

Quote:
And this is fine, stuff have to be destoryed to fuel EVE gameplay and keep it compiant.

In FW is the same, but you also get a (small) reward in LP for the kill (I mean just for the kill not for plexing). Now this LP quote is not "transfered" (subtracted from your victim and gave to you) is "created" as new. This I consider a bad game concept, cause a kill should simply destroy.

While activities like DED (beside another difference is: the DED frequency is not controlled by the players but by the systems), Plexing, Industry requires a different gameplay, time and effort and are intendeed to create assets/income.

More we increase that LP quote more we reduce the assets destroyed / assets created gap and the consequences of a kill.


Interestingly (I hope), there is some data on the value of assets destroyed in Factional Warfare, so we can crunch the numbers.

If you ignore any LPs gained from, or donated, in plexing and missions etc, Faction Warfare PvP is a huge ISK sink - to the tune of at least a trillion Isk every month by my maths.

Here's my 'workings out' - if anyone has any observations on this, please chip in. I'm all in favour of healthy debate. There's every chance I'm wrong or have missed out something crucial that renders what follows total bollocks.

This is the total amount of damage done and damage received by Faction Warfare militia members in August 2013 – billions of ISK.

Damage Done and Damage Received

Gallente - 622.99 / 393.66
Caldari - 555.38 / 490.25
Minmitar - 369.64 / 269.01
Amarr - 284.17 / 195.94
TOTAL - 1832.18 / 1348.86

It’s interesting that these two totals don’t correlate, and I’d be interested in suggestions why. It’s possibly that ‘damage done’ is by Militia members to non-militia members, and conversely ‘damage received’ is also the same thing,

For the sake of argument, let’s average out the two totals and say that the total amount of market price ‘asset loss’ – ships, modules and cargo – is 1,600bn ISK a month.

Again, for the sake of argument, let’s say the amount of loot dropping is 40% of the value of the loss. It’s probably a bit less, but let’s say it anyway – 640bn ISK.

Calculating LP from these numbers is pretty difficult. It used to be based on this formula:

[Given LP] = ([Market value of target ship] - [Max. Insurance market value] + [Fitted mods, rigs and subsystem market value] + [Transported items market value]) / 10000

This was changed after the famous exploit where a small group artificially and massively inflated the ‘market value’ of an obscure good, blew each other up in FW, and got colossal LP as as result. So mods and transported items were removed from the calculation.

The market value of ships compared to their mods varies enormously depending on the ship and the mods, but let’s take a wild guess, ignore insurance and put the figure at 25% of the total package.

So – 400bn-worth of ships go ‘pop’ a month in FW / 10,000 = 40m LPs a month generated, across all the factions.

40m LPs are worth 40bn Isk at a modest conversion rate of 1,000isk per LP.

So – you’re looking at, overall

-1,600bn isk - Destroyed ships / mods / cargo
+640bn isk – market value of subsequently looted modules
+40bn isk – value of LPs from kills.

At least a trillion of ISK disappearing every month. Looks like a massive ISK sink to me. Plenty of room to up the LP quota now the exploit involving cargo has been sorted.

LPs are worth a tiny fraction of the overall equation. There’s massive scope to increase them, particularly now dropped mods and, I believe, cargo is no longer included. I would just give half the straight market value of the destroyed ships minus their insurance value, at 1,000 isk an LP. Five times the current LP rate, basically.

So – you destroy a Federation Navy Comet, worth 14m after insurance. You get 7m Isk-worth of LPs for it – 7,000 LPs. Not 700 LPs, which is roughly what it is now.
Anomaly One
Doomheim
#102 - 2013-09-22 00:48:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Anomaly One
why not just get rid of the plexes or change them up, instead of sitting afk or waiting for someone willing to fight in a plex, encourage bringing fighting ships, change plexes into destructable stations or w/e maybe make it so a novice plex can be soloed in some times and higher up will require more groups of people and bigger ships to destroy, lp can be awarded upon destruction of a station or fliping the system, maybe this will get rid of some the afk cloaked stabs..

And to gain more lp to let the pvpers continue with their pew, offer missions to protect systems by repairing a station or some ****, like a huge ******* "warning: system is under attack, lp gains increased for defending or something" instead of the tier system offer lp based on the systems activity, deaths etc..

Another thing is the bounty system should be used here, if a player/corp is doing well in minmatar fw (killing lots of amar/caldari) have a high lp/isk bounty on HIM (not the ship he flies) so hunting him/them down would reward you pretty well for killing an imporant enemy.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#103 - 2013-09-22 00:56:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Sura Sadiva
Sleban wrote:
LPs are worth a tiny fraction of the overall equation. There’s massive scope to increase them, particularly now dropped mods and, I believe, cargo is no longer included. I would just give half the straight market value of the destroyed ships minus their insurance value, at 1,000 isk an LP. Five times the current LP rate, basically.

So – you destroy a Federation Navy Comet, worth 14m after insurance. You get 7m Isk-worth of LPs for it – 7,000 LPs. Not 700 LPs, which is roughly what it is now.


I don't know how you calculate it. But for isntance I got this for a crucifier kill (T1 frigate. total value with modules 18m):

Loyalty points awarded for militia effort
From: Tribal Liberation Force
Sent: 2013.09.07 00:23

In recognition of your effort to shoot down Ctuhulu Sherykkhann, a despised enemy of our militia, Tribal Liberation Force grants you 3.542 loyalty points which will be delivered to you within 15 minutes.

Would you really multiply it (3500 LP) for 5??? On a 18m destroyed kill?


But the point is not if have to be 10, 100 or 1000 LP for kill. The point is: in any other place in EVE you don't get anything more than the loot for a kill.
Also, I consider LP reward is vicious for the gameplay cause they are "created", not "transfered" from other players (like bounties or loot).

And I don't see any benefit in this, sounds more like demagoic to me, but we all know peeople engae (or not) are not motivated by reward.

Also: if yoiu make kills too much an evaluable income people will be prompted to maximize it, always happens so. And, maximizing the effort/benefit ratio when is about kills means encouragging blobs.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#104 - 2013-09-22 04:46:03 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:

Also: if yoiu make kills too much an evaluable income people will be prompted to maximize it, always happens so. And, maximizing the effort/benefit ratio when is about kills means encouragging blobs.

You get more LP if you kill a ship with a minimum number of players. Anyways, carry on.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#105 - 2013-09-22 04:48:57 UTC
fw should be about pvp, not pve, get rid of all rewards.

systems should change occupancy idk the amount of enemy vessels killed.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Sleban
Pole Shift Incorporated
#106 - 2013-09-22 05:48:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Sleban
Quote:
Would you really multiply it (3500 LP) for 5??? On a 18m destroyed kill?


There's every chance my maths is out, as I said. 3,500 LPs sounds about right. It did have 18m worth of modules.

That kill gave you LPs equivalent to about 7 minutes of defensive plexing at Tier 2. But put at risk a presumably expensive ship, took you ages to line up, required your character to have decent skills, and for you - the player - to successfully deliver it.

I'm guessing you looted probably about 6-7m worth of mods as well?

I think there's some other LP modifier that might already apply in PvP - the militia rank of the player whacked, potentially compared to your rank. This kind of cuts both ways, though: it's a good idea that you get higher LP for killing higher ranked players. But only if rank is achieved or adjusted in PvP. Farmers, without a kill to their name, can be more highly ranked than experienced FW PvP vets.

Quote:
But the point is not if have to be 10, 100 or 1000 LP for kill. The point is: in any other place in EVE you don't get anything more than the loot for a kill.
Also, I consider LP reward is vicious for the gameplay cause they are "created", not "transfered" from other players (like bounties or loot).


This isn't PvP, I know, but across the totality of combat activities the bounties players get from shooting NPCs is by far the biggest ISK faucet. I would agree, actually, with your suggestion about 'transferring' assets, were it not the fact that NPCs exist and are spawned in limitless amounts. It would also be interesting to imagine an Eve without NPCs altogether, but that's never going to happen when 80% of the player base lives and remains in hi-sec, doing mining, missions, building and selling anti-matter ammo and so forth.

I do also believe there's huge opportunities for pumping up the 'bling' you get from FW kills and ranks in-game: medals, uniforms, potentially even ship colours etc. Wouldn't affect the game economy or risk / rewards, but would increase attractiveness and reward prowess.
Sleban
Pole Shift Incorporated
#107 - 2013-09-22 06:28:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Sleban
This is how things were changed with Inferno:

LPs for kills
In Inferno, we will also properly reward PvP kills, as we are not satisfied by the very small payout it delivers currently. The new formula now will correct this, by handing LPs proportional to the ship value lost, the exact formula being:

[Given LP] = ([Market value of target ship] - [Max. Insurance market value] + [Fitted mods, rigs and subsystem market value] + [Transported items market value]) / 10000

Please note that insurance is always counted as maximum value no matter what your ship actually has to avoid farming. If the killing blow belongs to someone in a fleet, all eligible members will receive a split share of the LP booty, even if they are in the allied militia.

Example: a fleet of 2x Gallente Federation and 2x Minmatar Republic members destroy a target enlisted in the Caldari State worth 4000 LPs. No matter who had the killing blow, each Federation pilot will receive 1000 LP for the Federal Defense Union, while each Minmatar capsuleer will gain 1000 LP for the Tribal Liberation Force.

Below are some examples on how the new formula pays out next with market values taken from our internal test servers:

Destroying an Abaddon fitted with tech 2 mods: gained LP = ( 196m ISK – 161m ISK + 46m ISK + 0 ) / 10000 = 8100 LP (previous system would have paid 500 LP)
Destroying a Machariel fitted with tech 2 mods: gained LP = (1.170m ISK – 95m ISK + 40m ISK + 0 ) / 10000 = 111500 LP (previous system would have paid 750 LP)
Destroying a Providence with 1 b full of cargo: gained LP = (1115m ISK – 839m ISK + 0 + 1000m ISK ) / 10000 = 127600 LP (previous system would have paid 2000 LP)
Destroying a Punisher with tech 1 fitting: gained LP = (450k ISK – 312k ISK + 100k ISK + 0) / 10000 = around 24 LP (previous system would have paid 25 LP)
Destroying a Punisher with tech 2 fitting: gained LP = (450k ISK – 312k ISK + 7.8m ISK +) / 10000 = around 794 LP (previous system would have paid 25 LP)


It obviously isn't like this now, but I post this here for no other reason that I absolutely love the tempting example of the "Providence with 1bn isk of cargo." Because if you're in Factional Warfare, you're clearly going to be flying around the warzone in a Providence loot pinata. It's easy to see how the players that exploited this could have figured out their heist - just by looking at these examples, provided conveniently by CCP.

All that I think has happened subsequently is that CCP have just removed [Fitted mods, rigs and subsystem market value] + [Transported items market value] from the equation completely, leaving just [Market value of target ship] - [Max. Insurance market value] / 10000. It's doubtful that there's any ship in game that's exploitable by pumping its average value, unless you've got a rare tournament ship and you sell it to yourself for insane amounts, then blow it up yourself in Faction Warfare.

I say doubtful. It's not impossible. Especially if you're the winning team of a tournament and can 'control' the supply of rare ships. It also gives an approximate 'base value' for any rare ship like this:

Value of rare ship = [maximum amount of ISK in cash you have and can borrow - sales tax] - [Max. Insurance market value] / 10.

Take the Adastria. Let's assume 50 were made from the blueprint, and are sitting in hangars like some old painting in a warehouse. I can borrow every ISK I can lay my hands on - say 200bn of personal and corp money. RInse it through the FW system, cash in the LPs and each popped Adastria is worth 20bn+. Even more, if there's a multiplier at work and I ensure the pilot sitting in the popped Adastria is a highly ranked militia pilot, getting a slice of the action for the shame of the killmail.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2013-09-22 06:47:16 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:
Sleban wrote:
LPs are worth a tiny fraction of the overall equation. There’s massive scope to increase them, particularly now dropped mods and, I believe, cargo is no longer included. I would just give half the straight market value of the destroyed ships minus their insurance value, at 1,000 isk an LP. Five times the current LP rate, basically.

So – you destroy a Federation Navy Comet, worth 14m after insurance. You get 7m Isk-worth of LPs for it – 7,000 LPs. Not 700 LPs, which is roughly what it is now.


I don't know how you calculate it. But for isntance I got this for a crucifier kill (T1 frigate. total value with modules 18m):

Loyalty points awarded for militia effort
From: Tribal Liberation Force
Sent: 2013.09.07 00:23

In recognition of your effort to shoot down Ctuhulu Sherykkhann, a despised enemy of our militia, Tribal Liberation Force grants you 3.542 loyalty points which will be delivered to you within 15 minutes.

Would you really multiply it (3500 LP) for 5??? On a 18m destroyed kill?


But the point is not if have to be 10, 100 or 1000 LP for kill. The point is: in any other place in EVE you don't get anything more than the loot for a kill.
Also, I consider LP reward is vicious for the gameplay cause they are "created", not "transfered" from other players (like bounties or loot).

And I don't see any benefit in this, sounds more like demagoic to me, but we all know peeople engae (or not) are not motivated by reward.

Also: if yoiu make kills too much an evaluable income people will be prompted to maximize it, always happens so. And, maximizing the effort/benefit ratio when is about kills means encouragging blobs.


Sura that LP reward had already been modified by your current tier level modifier which for Minmatar is a much higher tier level, the point is for the Amarr or Caldari currently that kill could be paying out several hundred LP rather than thousands.

If you look at the in game kill mail you should see both the pend insurance value used for bounties and base LP reward before the tier modifier is applied.

These LP rewards could be fixed at a higher tier level for all factions to encourage PVP.

Also worth noting LP cannot really be used to be create assets other than through supporting industry with datacores/BPC's. All other Offers are upgrades and require existing modules and an ISK sink.
Sleban
Pole Shift Incorporated
#109 - 2013-09-22 06:51:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Sleban
Quote:
Also worth noting LP cannot really be used to be create assets other than through supporting industry with datacores/BPC's. All other Offers are upgrades and require existing modules and an ISK sink.


Implants. Do require ISK to throw into the pot, but they're 'new' assets.
Sleban
Pole Shift Incorporated
#110 - 2013-09-22 07:19:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Sleban
Quote:
Sura that LP reward had already been modified by your current tier level modifier which for Minmatar is a much higher tier level, the point is for the Amarr or Caldari currently that kill could be paying out several hundred LP rather than thousands.


I had completely forgotten about the Tier modifier. So for a Minmitar pilot at Tier 5, the equation presumably looks like

[ market value - pend insurance value at Plat level] x 275% / 10*

* assuming each LP is worth 1,000isk. They're potentially worth as much as 1700 ISK for the right goods, so you could reduce the modifier to 6.

What's the platinum insurance cost of, and the payout for, for example, an 850m ISK Machariel?

Because if it's anything less than about 400m ISK in total......
Sleban
Pole Shift Incorporated
#111 - 2013-09-22 07:53:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Sleban
Actually, a Mach is a poor example because the insurance value on Tech 2 and above ships is bobbins,

A better example would be any Tech 1 battleship. Take the Dominix, for example. I've just bought one to test this out:

Costs 150m isk to buy.

Platinum insurance is 21.4m

Pays out 71.6m if it gets popped.

So total 'cost' for a disposable Dominix, valued at 71.6m by Pend, is about 100m

Offset by Minmitar pilot who pops the Domi at Tier 5.

71.6m x 275% / 10 = 19.6m.

71.6m x 275% / 6 = 32m

So I'm talking absolute bollocks, it transpires. There's no achievable ship / insurance profiteering to be had. At least I cleared that one up....

Is there a Tech 1 battleship where its insurance payout is much closer to its market value than the Domi?

EDIT: I'm both wrong on the Tier multiplier (it's 225%, not 275%) and on the value of the ship. Wrong wrong wrong. Fail.

It should be 150m - 71.6m / 10,000 * tier multiplier (225%) = 17,640 LPs. Worth about 30m isk at a brisk conversion rate. A loss of about 120m, or 70m if you've got insurance.

Would be interesting to know what happens with a Navy Domi - has anyone popped on? Was the LP haul about 70k?
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#112 - 2013-09-22 10:14:20 UTC
It's funny how you guys think you should get isk for shooting people, unlike everyone else in the game. Because FW isn't profitable and broken enough already.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#113 - 2013-09-22 10:34:03 UTC
Sleban wrote:
I had completely forgotten about the Tier modifier. So for a Minmitar pilot at Tier 5, the equation presumably looks like
[ market value - pend insurance value at Plat level] x 275% / 10*


Yes, you forgot the tier modifier in your calculation. Just a minor dettail, how many other did you forgot? :)


But your calculations are pretty much the reason I dislike any added bonus to kills: even when not overpowered and when not exploitable, it's aPVE approach. Push to consider kills like a farmable PVE resources.
Xeen Du'Wang
Perkone
Caldari State
#114 - 2013-09-22 11:36:32 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
fw should be about pvp, not pve, get rid of all rewards.

systems should change occupancy idk the amount of enemy vessels killed.


There was already PVP in low sec before FW was introduced... now there is more
Without the reward system, there would be no FW.
Sleban
Pole Shift Incorporated
#115 - 2013-09-22 11:37:16 UTC
Quote:
It's funny how you guys think you should get isk for shooting people, unlike everyone else in the game. Because FW isn't profitable and broken enough already.


Bounty Hunters, plus anyone that puts any form of bounty on another player, might disagree with you.

Plus there's also Kill Rights, where someone else pays for the right to kill anyone who has ganked you.

Ironically, Kill Rights are yet another 'bonus' mechanic that help the plex farmer in a 500,000 ISK frigate stay profitable - if you get ganked by a non-FW affiliated pirate, just set the kill right at about 2-3 times the cost of your lost ship, available to everyone. If it's a major pirate, likely to have some juicy mods, 10x. In my experience probably about half of kill rights do get activated at modest prices, so it's another marginal way of offsetting the trivial inconvenience and cost of getting another half-mil frig out of the hangar for plexing. Plus the satisfaction of knowing your ganker got their dues.
Sleban
Pole Shift Incorporated
#116 - 2013-09-22 12:18:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Sleban
Quote:
Yes, you forgot the tier modifier in your calculation. Just a minor dettail, how many other did you forgot? :)



Probably some other things. There's no doubt some other 'hidden' levers. This would all be so much easier if the wiki on key mechanics was updated by CCP, rather than leaving it to players to try and decode the formulas, and work out which promised changes were implemented or not.

For example, are drones treated as part of the ship, considered a mod, or cargo?

Having said all that, I think the formula is roughly this, and what has happened is that they're removed the value of cargo, but not mods, from the equation to address the exploit.

I am also assuming that as Minnie you're at T5.

LPs = [market value of ship - insurance value + mods value] / 10,000, then modified by Tier level.

Take your example. You got 3,542 LPs for that Crucifier, the Chtulu one, I'm assuming. I looked at the killboards to see the values. Hope you don't mind.

Variables
Market value - 375,000Isk
Insurance value - 205,000 Isk.
Mods and cargo - about 18.5m
Cargo - 2,539,000
Addressable value - about 15,961,000 isk.
Tier 5 modifier 225%.

So: 15,961,000 / 10,000 * 225% = 3,591 LPs. Near as dammit, and assuming you are indeed on Tier 5.

If this is right, then anyone looking to abuse the FW mechanic would either need to massively manipulate the market price of a very rare ship or a totally obscure, fairly rare and probably awful / pointless module that can be fitted to a cheap ship.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#117 - 2013-09-22 14:39:36 UTC
Xeen Du'Wang wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
fw should be about pvp, not pve, get rid of all rewards.

systems should change occupancy idk the amount of enemy vessels killed.


There was already PVP in low sec before FW was introduced... now there is more
Without the reward system, there would be no FW.

wrong

ther was more FW without the reward system for YEARS.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Garan Nardieu
Super Serious Fight Club
#118 - 2013-09-23 07:48:28 UTC
Ok, so last page or so of this thread has been turned into complaining about a mechanic through which PvP is actually rewarded in eve. What the heck is wrong with you people, this should be ENCOURAGED, not removed Ugh!

On a sidenote, atm pvp payouts are really negligible compared to what you can get from FW PvE, be it plexing or missioning. Also, please don't use tier V as a reference for anything since no side held onto tier V for any significant time since Retribution. Some aspects of FW are broken atm but LP payouts from pvp certainly is not that aspect, so please focus on real problems or lock this thread for lack of content.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#119 - 2013-09-23 10:05:29 UTC
[
Garan Nardieu wrote:
Ok, so last page or so of this thread has been turned into complaining about a mechanic through which PvP is actually rewarded in eve. What the heck is wrong with you people, this should be ENCOURAGED, not removed Ugh!
On a sidenote, atm pvp payouts are really negligible compared to what you can get from FW PvE, be it plexing or missioning. Also, please don't use tier V as a reference for anything



Tier V is taken as reference because someone in the thread suggested to line any FW kill LP payout to a permanent tier V value (no matter the faction and the effective tier). And somoene else added that "no, even so is not enough, we have to further multiply it for 5".

This is not only based on a wrong game concept (turning something designed to destory wealth - pvp kills - in some kind of wealth generating resource), not only open the door to exploits (as already happened in the past but is also ridiculously overpowered.

And about the negligible LP payout for kill is not so. It looks negligible cause we use cheap ships; but also the worst 6-700 LP for kill is still 3-4 times the average hull value; in the rest of EVE there's no added bonus for pvp kills.
Pinky Feldman
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#120 - 2013-09-23 11:14:10 UTC
I wonder how much of an ISK faucet the insurance from all the kill creates. Also there was PVP in lowsec pre-Inferno, but it was much different. I'm sure there are more raw people now as of a result of Inferno, but it's a lot smaller ships.

I'm not a fan of the Tier system as I could be happy in Tier 2 all day long, but it is what it is. I mainly wanted to come here so I could say I posted in a FW thread.

tl;dr I'm kind of sad that I never got a chance to farm the latest Minmatar Tier 5, but it seems that after getting a medal for taking Sahtogas the Minnie LP pumping came to a halt. It's really a shame because even with the scaling LP tax, the rewards in regards to increased LP payouts keep up linearly so there's no reason not to stay in the highest Tier you can as long as you have the systems. The nice thing too about Minnie Tier 5 is I can run the missions on my Amarr main.

The moar you cry the less you pee