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Target painters on a Micro Jump Drive using Raven?
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Antonio Steele

Center for Advanced Studies

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 38

#1 - 2013-09-21 21:11:16 UTC

I currently run L4's in my cruise missile using Raven. I have 144km missile range, and 147km targeting range. I frequently operate at ranges over 100km from targets due to all this. Even so, I get a lot of people telling me I NEED target painters. This sounds pretty stupid given my typical engagement range and the range of TP's. The only things that ever get close are the occasional elite frigate, but my T2 drones make short work of them.

My current fit is as follows

6 Meta 4 cruise launchers
1 drone link aug T1

1 Micro Jump Drive
Either 3 mission specific hardners and 3 large shield extender T2's (Works best for Angels)
Or 4 mission specific hardners and 2 large shield extender T2's (For all other rats)

3 Ballistic Control Unit T2
2 Meta 4 signal amps (Boosts target range and speed)

3 rigor rigs T1 (did some modeling in EFT of various frigs, dessies, and cruisers as targets using the DPS graph feature to compare the effects of rigors versus flares and found that even when the ship is burning an AB the rigors win out for top DPS applied)

I use faction ammo for BS's, regular for BC's and cruisers, and drones for anything smaller

I don't have an incredible EHP/s regen for my shields, but with 70-96 EHP towards whatever rats I'm facing I can tough out plenty of abuse until I can jump away.

So do I really need one or two target painters? If so, what should I give up from my fit in order to fit them?

Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 606
Caleidascope Republic Military School Minmatar Republic Likes received: 606	#2 - 2013-09-21 22:04:50 UTC That's because they are eft warriors. Life is short and dinner time is chancy Eat dessert first!

John Ratcliffe

Tradors'R'us

IChooseYou Alliance

Likes received: 293

#3 - 2013-09-21 22:28:51 UTC | Edited by: John Ratcliffe

You need 2 TPs and there's no point putting a MJD on a Raven in Caldari space. Try this - 928 DPS and less than 500 Million. Change the Sig Amp for a DCII on shorter ranged missions.

[Raven, PVE]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Signal Amplifier II

Large Shield Booster II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
100MN Afterburner II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
[empty high slot]

Large Warhead Flare Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II

Hobgoblin II x5

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose


John Ratcliffe Tradors'R'us IChooseYou Alliance Likes received: 293	#4 - 2013-09-21 22:29:20 UTC Caleidascope wrote: That's because they are eft warriors. No, that's because they know what they are talking about. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

Antonio Steele

Center for Advanced Studies

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 38

#5 - 2013-09-21 23:14:03 UTC | Edited by: Antonio Steele

John Ratcliffe wrote:

I mission in Minmatar Space and my character is Gallente. The only time I face Guristas is in "Dread Pirate Scarlet" so the MJD is quite useful. I also can't fit T2 launchers quite yet. I have a couple days to Caldari BS 4 and then 16-17 days to Cruise launchers 5 (I started it but swapped for BS skill first, hence the shorter train time). I also hear that Ravens suck at tanking and are best kept at range to reduce incoming DPS.

Caleidascope

Republic Military School

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 606

#6 - 2013-09-21 23:54:57 UTC

John Ratcliffe wrote:

I see you love micromanagement.
Let us see:
f1 for missiles
f2 for tp1
f3 for tp2
f4 for cap booster
f5 for shield booster
f6 for ab? do you cycle it or do you keep it on full time?

My Raven:
f1 for missiles
f2 for shield booster
f3 for LMJD

Life is short and dinner time is chancy

Eat dessert first!

John Ratcliffe

Tradors'R'us

IChooseYou Alliance

Likes received: 293

#7 - 2013-09-22 00:00:32 UTC

Caleidascope wrote:

The AB and CB are hardly ever used, so no drama there. Operating 2 TPs is hardly a chore, especially because with that much applied DPS stuff just goes boom!

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

Aivo Dresden

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 472

#8 - 2013-09-22 12:53:15 UTC | Edited by: Aivo Dresden

I've worked out a bit of a fit for you as well. Have you tried this? I've set it up against Serpentis, but you change the missiles and hardeners to fit your needs obviously.

HIGH
'Arbalest' Cruise Missile Launcher - CN Scourge Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Missile Launcher - CN Scourge Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Missile Launcher - CN Scourge Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Missile Launcher - CN Scourge Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Missile Launcher - CN Scourge Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Missile Launcher - CN Scourge Cruise Missile

MID
Large Micro Jump Drive
X-Large C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II

LOW
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
F-89 Synchornized Signal Amplifier

RIGS
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I

DRONES
5x Hammerhead II

You like to use the Micro Jump Drive, so why not. It's not bad, play how ever you would like to. I've added some meta4 mods in, since you said you're not quite skilled up yet for T2 mods. You don't need 2 target painters, you already have 3 rigor rigs. One will be more than enough, just to get those more annoying cruisers. Drones take care of frigates.

Personally I would drop the drone link, there's no point in it. It takes ages for your drones to fly that far anyway. Just wait for the Frigates to come closer to you. You can shoot the battleships right after you MJD away and wait for the cruisers to get within you target painter range. You can then light them up and unload.

That should work pretty well. EFT would suggest 815 DPS (656 from missiles and 158 from drones). Your tank can take 700-800 DPS should you run in to an OH **** moment but it's definitely not cap stable and will run out in 1m30-2m. However, since you intend on using the MJD anyway, there's really no reason at all it would stay active for longer. Once you jump away and turn off the XL shield booster, the cap is stable at 70%. After that you just pulse the booster every now and then, if need be.

This entire fit will set you back 75mill or so, so definitely not that expensive. If anything, I would probably spend a little more on CN BCUs (125mill a piece) and CN Hardeners (30mill a piece).

Just for the record, if you would upgrade to TII with the fit above, you'll be getting 888 missile dps, instead of 656, and should you use T2 launchers with CN BCUs you'll get 946 missile DPS.

Antonio Steele

Center for Advanced Studies

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 38

#9 - 2013-09-22 15:22:25 UTC

Aivo Dresden wrote:

Honestly, cruisers almost never come within target painting range with my setup. I would drop 1 signal amp for a BCU, but then I can't target as far as I need to. If my enemy is more than 20km away when I jump I can easily end up out of sensor range if using just 1 signal amp. Also, as far as an active pulse tank is concerned, I think I prefer having a pile of EHP over higher regen for this particular setup. With a shield booster I do double my regen (the stat where EFT takes into account needing to pulse the tank), but I halve my EHP compared to my passive tank. The only time I have ever had issues was in "Dread Pirate Scarlet" when facing numerous Guristas cruise missile launching ravens. For that I warped out and fitted for heavy kinetic resists then came back and they hardly dented my shields.

Caleidascope

Republic Military School

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 606

#10 - 2013-09-22 15:32:26 UTC

Antonio Steele wrote:

Aivo Dresden wrote:

That is why you fit signal booster with targeting range script. Replace two useless tp with two scripted SeBo and you get 221km targeting range.

The signal amp in low gets replaced by co-processor.

Life is short and dinner time is chancy

Eat dessert first!

Aivo Dresden

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 472

#11 - 2013-09-22 15:39:50 UTC | Edited by: Aivo Dresden

If you replace the Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron with a Sensor Booster II (with range script) you will get 189 km range, which I suppose is nice.

You really don't need that though. Most of the mission rats don't shoot that far anyway. There's maybe 1-2 missions where things will hit you past 80-100km. There's really no need to go to 200+. Not to mention that you would need to use your Micro Jump Drive twice to get there, and then use it twice to get back to the gate to get to the next pocket. Not really that efficient.

Personally I wouldn't do that, but you ship your ship as you please of course. :)

Besides, once you get T2 launchers you should fit those, and use fury / precision missiles anyway. The max range you'll get out of those is 167 / 111 km respectively, with perfect skills.

It's a bad idea to passive tank a Raven, you cannot fit enough tank without putting a ton of modules on there, ultimately gimping the rest of the ship. If you drop too many, you'll hurt your DPS and your missions will be very, very slow. Personally, I would only fit 3-4 tank modules, that's more than enough.

I see what you mean with EHP over resists, but the thing is that you don't really have a tank. You just have a large buffer at the expensive of DPS, same goes for your range. You have a lot of range, but you drop DPS for it.

Target painters are the difference between 2 or 3 volleys. Same for another BCU. You also like sitting at great ranges, so I would assume that very often you will launch a volley when the target is, or will be destroyer by missiles on route. Ultimately throwing away ISK, and more time.

You want to make your ship as efficient as possible. Again, you can of course play any way you like, each plays his own style, we're just trying to help you make your ships and fittings more efficient.

Caleidascope

Republic Military School

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 606

#12 - 2013-09-22 16:39:25 UTC

Aivo Dresden wrote:

Guristas shoot beyond 200km.

Life is short and dinner time is chancy

Eat dessert first!

Antonio Steele

Center for Advanced Studies

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 38

#13 - 2013-09-22 17:28:27 UTC | Edited by: Antonio Steele

Aivo Dresden wrote:

Yeah, it is true I occasionally waste a missile volley due to fighting at such long ranges. I've learned to gauge how many volleys the first enemy or two of a type in a given mission take and then cut off my fire before I waste a volley, but it isn't perfect. I am starting to debate on trying a Typhoon with an AB. They can top 400 m/s with my skills and have a relatively small sig for a BS. They lack the projection bonus of the Raven, but have a boost to explosion velocity. I wonder if a Typhoon would survive L4's better with an AB versus a Raven using just an AB. I have both race's BS skills at 3, and I can armor tank and shield tank equally well so if the Typhoon is a better armor tanker it can work for me. My skill set is rather broad as I toyed around with all the race's ships and all 5 main weapons systems (drones count as the fifth) before settling on missiles. It might also be more fun to zip around rather than just jump and slow boat. The jump drive setup can get boring, and often I jump out of combat range and have to slow boat back 10-20 km at 141 m/s ugh.

Should I try an AB fit missile BS? If so, should I stick with the Raven or get a Typhoon? Is the Typhoon tankier than the raven? I always hear the Raven sucks for tanking.


Aivo Dresden State War Academy Caldari State Likes received: 472	#14 - 2013-09-22 18:03:15 UTC I wouldn't fit an armor tank on it, you fit it exactly like a Raven. Just get the Typhoon fleet issue instead. The cool thing is that you can use sentries on it as well. The problem with it is that it doesn't really tank any better than a Raven. It kind of fits like a poor man's Rattlesnake in that aspect. If you want a "zoom around ship" get a Tengu.

Fusion Enterprises Ltd Pandemic Horde 442
Cage Man Fusion Enterprises Ltd Pandemic Horde Likes received: 442	#15 - 2013-09-22 20:02:32 UTC TP helps quite a bit. But you don't NEED it, and I doubt it will help you in the way you play. Each to his own is the way I see it, try it, if you don't like it, take it off.. that's what the test server is for, try it there it costs nothing.

Crellion

Nano Rhinos

PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS

Likes received: 59

#16 - 2013-09-23 10:05:55 UTC

After I hit the first few full blown drama posts I stopped reading.

Basically if you only have access to meta4s and you are all rigored up anyway AND will only be in painter fall off anyway you dont really need the painters. However once you access the spectacular dps increase of furies you will need to have 2 tps to see it applied properly even if they are just in fall off.

So better plan for that. Oh at that point you will probably also want to switch at least one rigot for a flare.

Chainsaw Plankton

FaDoyToy

Likes received: 3,263

#17 - 2013-09-24 01:43:30 UTC

with t1/faction missiles and rigors you don't really need a tp. that said with skills a tp has 45+90km range, so full effectiveness out to 45km, and then a 50% (I think) chance at working from 45km to 135km .

I'd suggest upgrading to t2 launchers with fury ammo, and then fitting painters in the future. raven has enough tank it can sit still in missions. or you can fit all out gank and use a mjd to avoid damage.

another bonus for a painter, it is nice for getting aggro so you can mjd and afk with auto targeting missiles.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Doomheim 669
Alduin666 Shikkoken Doomheim Likes received: 669	#18 - 2013-09-24 02:00:32 UTC 3 First law of Murphey's Law to Interstellar Combat - If its stupid and it works, it isn't stupid. If what you are doing now works, then keep doing it and don't let anyone else tell you different. Honor is a fools prize. [I]Glory is of no use to the dead.[/I] Be a man! Post with your main! ~Vas'Avi Community Manager

Desudes

The Scope

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 445

#19 - 2013-09-24 13:15:41 UTC

If dps feels too low on small targets, add TP, otherwise keep mindlessly lobbing cruise missiles from 100km+ like you're liberating a foreign country IMO

The low skilled Mjd fit CNR I use occasionally applies dps well on anything but elite frigs/cruisers , but that's why you train for t2 lights. I can't be bothered to use TPs cause I'm a lazy git.

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?

Ships & Modules

Center for Advanced Studies

Gallente Federation

Republic Military School

Minmatar Republic

Tradors'R'us

IChooseYou Alliance

State War Academy

Caldari State

Fusion Enterprises Ltd

Pandemic Horde

Nano Rhinos

PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS

FaDoyToy

Doomheim

The Scope

Gallente Federation