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CCP Nullarbor

C C P

C C P Alliance

Likes received: 1,516

#41 - 2011-11-15 13:07:47 UTC

Jowen Datloran wrote:

Btw. you forgot to give players an option to see how much tax they have to pay (or if they are completely excluded from using the POCO) before settling on a planet.

You can see this by viewing the show info on a customs offices (or by opening up the customs office UI itself). It will either show you the tax rate applicable for you, or say access denied.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones


CCP Nullarbor C C P C C P Alliance Likes received: 1,516	#42 - 2011-11-15 13:08:20 UTC 2 Two step wrote: I like this change. Do the interbus offices just blow up? Do they have the same HP as regular offices? Yes and yes. CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones

Sane Industries Inc. 2,037
Rakshasa Taisab Sane Industries Inc. Likes received: 2,037	#43 - 2011-11-15 13:08:35 UTC Rommiee wrote: How many of these concerns have been addressed and changed for the better, do you think ? Let me just inform you that the list of whine you posted made me come, twice, or trice. It makes me giddy not only to the prospect of carebears crying, but how this will affect low-sec and nul-sec industry and PvP. Nyan

Nirnaeth Ornoediad

GoonWaffe

Goonswarm Federation

Likes received: 208

#44 - 2011-11-15 13:08:45 UTC

Ingvar Angst wrote:

Jareck Hunter wrote:

Nice changes.

But the problems with griefers in Lowsec stays, they will still force people to move to empire or quit pi and make the planets in Lowsec not worth fighting for, cause nobody will be there to get taxed.

Can't we just make them conquerable and not destroyable in Lowsec?

They want low sec to be a controlled arm of the null alliances. That's how they're "fixing" it.

Confirming that Fatal Ascension's #1 priority is maintaining control over nearby low-sec.

Fix POSes. Every player should want one (even if all players can't have one).

Salpun

Global Telstar Federation Offices

Masters of Flying Objects

Likes received: 842

#45 - 2011-11-15 13:12:52 UTC

CCP Nullarbor wrote:

Jowen Datloran wrote:

Btw. you forgot to give players an option to see how much tax they have to pay (or if they are completely excluded from using the POCO) before settling on a planet.

You can see this by viewing the show info on a customs offices (or by opening up the customs office UI itself). It will either show you the tax rate applicable for you, or say access denied.

Does a message get sent when that number gets changes or is it locked in when the POCO gets built.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

Ingvar Angst

Nasty Pope Holding Corp

Likes received: 920

#46 - 2011-11-15 13:14:30 UTC

Nirnaeth Ornoediad wrote:

Ingvar Angst wrote:

Well, the only boneheaded part left is requiring LPs for the blueprints. Hard to get LPs in wormholes... unless you start giving Concord LPs for killing Sleepers...

It's called "trading", and involves interacting with other players. Wormholes are not meant to be 100% self-sufficient, and nor should they be. Interdependence drives conflict.

Hush. I'm trying to get them to consider Concord LP for killing Sleepers.

Still, they should do better than to leave the BPCs at the mercy of people trying to suffer through faction wars or incursion runners.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Zyrbalax III

Goldcrest Enterprises

Likes received: 89

#47 - 2011-11-15 13:15:00 UTC

John DaiSho wrote:

The amount of people being afraid of changing PI prices in this thread is incredible. Of course prices are to change, every major Expansion has a major impact on the markets, thats nothing new. You should adapt and try to make ISK out of it.

I think this are some really good changes, it looks like PI is changing from some small 2nd profession into serious business. And starters will still be able to make good ISK from it in highsec without many skills. I am very exited about the further changes once Dust will arrive sometime.

o/ John

Personally I don't much care what happens to the PI price - the market will ensure it's still profitable regardless of POCOs and tax rates. What I care about is whether I'll still be able to do PI at all.

My expectation is that the Goonies (or some other bunch of griefers) will take a tour through lowsec destroying any Interbus CO they can "for the lulz and tearz"; that ninja PI in sov null will still be impossible because CCP haven't changed the sov restriction; that WH ninja PI *may* last a bit longer but invading corps will destroy any COs they see and exiting corps the same, and any new POCOs put up will be "blue only".

So it won't be long before the only realistic non-hi-sec options for the small / casual player (like me) are lowsec with planetary launches or wh with planetary launches or npc nullsec the same. And having not seen fit to increase planetary launch size, CCP have just increased the amount of work I have to do for PI by an order magnitude (while actually reducing the probability of my PI alts getting hit by PVP because planetary launch containers can't be scanned down and are off-grid from anything else so no chance of being ambushed).

Shrug. On the other hand, I also expect PI prices to skyrocket so maybe I'll still be able to get the same isk from the same time input but with much lower volumes of materials.

Sigh. It would just be nice if CCP would actually consider the small player for a change.

Ingvar Angst

Nasty Pope Holding Corp

Likes received: 920

#48 - 2011-11-15 13:15:17 UTC

Nirnaeth Ornoediad wrote:

Ingvar Angst wrote:

Jareck Hunter wrote:

They want low sec to be a controlled arm of the null alliances. That's how they're "fixing" it.

Confirming that Fatal Ascension's #1 priority is maintaining control over nearby low-sec.

See?! SEE!? Absolute PROOF!

I am vindicated!

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Nirnaeth Ornoediad

GoonWaffe

Goonswarm Federation

Likes received: 208

#49 - 2011-11-15 13:17:21 UTC

Jowen Datloran wrote:

Also, I still think this is a pretty terrible idea you are trying to impose especially in low sec and NPC zero sec.
PI in its current implementation is incredible limited and consist of moving dots around and pressing a few buttons. Simplistic, tedious and boring gameplay will many agree to. But some find it interesting game play anyhow, just like some people enjoy mining. PI (on the planet) can easily be done by a solo or small corporation which gives them purpose.

Now you brilliant idea is forcing these people either into a gameplay that is pretty much the opposite of the current PI (adrenaline pumping ship to ship combat) or the option to abandon PI altogether (on their way to doing the same with EVE in general). I seriously cannot see the selling point in limiting people’s access to one game feature by letting another be able to rule over it. That is the reason why Darkfall is crap if you are interests are in crafting and market mechanics because hack’n’slash rule all. Same reason why people who enjoy fighting against other players hate when they are forced into PvE raids to get gear for these fights.

Within a month or so we will see one blob of players identifying what PI mineral is the bottleneck, stock it up and then wipe out all POCOs in low sec, or take them over to exclude everybody else, for that particular mineral. Or we will see the Goons doing us all a favor by rapidly destroying each and every POCO in low sec.

Fundamentally; did you seriously believe people would get more interested in PI when you do not improve on the actual PI mechanics but instead limits people’s access to them? What kind of player are you hoping to draw in with this?

If PvP should be a greater element in PI it should have be done on the darn planets.

I think you're comparing the current Gallente Ice Interdiction with PI too much. It's very hard to bottleneck PI, because unlike most resources (Technetium, racial Ice, racial Ores), it's spread more-or-less evenly across New Eden. You can't lock down a few dozen systems and control the supply side enough to influence price. Therefore the only way to bottleneck the supply is to buy up existing supply...across every Region in New Eden. I determined (and wealthy) group might be able to pull it off for a short time, but that's just good market PVPing.

The real issue--if it is one--is that in general these changes are going to make PI a more dangerous passive income, and more susceptible to loss. (Seriously, the occasional industrial full of Coolant gets popped now and then, but in general PI has a high efficiency rate of getting to market). This will push supply down, raising prices, which will stabilize when enough people see the higher price as worth the risk and inconvenience for "just a little passive ISK".

Fix POSes. Every player should want one (even if all players can't have one).

Nirnaeth Ornoediad

GoonWaffe

Goonswarm Federation

Likes received: 208

#50 - 2011-11-15 13:19:39 UTC

Arkady Sadik wrote:

[quote=Ethanole]
This is a bit off, as no one will pay 15% tax for a pure production planet if they can just pay 10% in much safer high-sec, but it should give a rough idea. It's difficult to calculate profit for extraction, as I do not know extraction numbers in low-sec.

With a 5% tax, that's still under a month.

So really, not that far off.

Good analysis. One practical impact might be that 0.0 is used to pull raw materials (and probably process to the first tier), and high-sec is weighted towards production worlds. Import/export dependencies are nice. (There will be plenty of exceptions, of course).

Fix POSes. Every player should want one (even if all players can't have one).

Nirnaeth Ornoediad

GoonWaffe

Goonswarm Federation

Likes received: 208

#51 - 2011-11-15 13:21:07 UTC

Ingvar Angst wrote:

Nirnaeth Ornoediad wrote:

Ingvar Angst wrote:

Well, the only boneheaded part left is requiring LPs for the blueprints. Hard to get LPs in wormholes... unless you start giving Concord LPs for killing Sleepers...

It's called "trading", and involves interacting with other players. Wormholes are not meant to be 100% self-sufficient, and nor should they be. Interdependence drives conflict.

LOL
I agree it's a little gamey, but FW types have seen nothing for so long now, it's probably good to throw them something, however measly.

Fix POSes. Every player should want one (even if all players can't have one).

CCP Nullarbor

C C P

C C P Alliance

Likes received: 1,516

#52 - 2011-11-15 13:21:48 UTC

Salpun wrote:

CCP Nullarbor wrote:

Jowen Datloran wrote:

Btw. you forgot to give players an option to see how much tax they have to pay (or if they are completely excluded from using the POCO) before settling on a planet.

You can see this by viewing the show info on a customs offices (or by opening up the customs office UI itself). It will either show you the tax rate applicable for you, or say access denied.

Does a message get sent when that number gets changes or is it locked in when the POCO gets built.

No message and the owner can change it at any time. You can always check it before you export but if they lock you out or drive up the tax rate then that's really a diplomatic issue more than a notification issue.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones

Salpun

Global Telstar Federation Offices

Masters of Flying Objects

Likes received: 842

#53 - 2011-11-15 13:27:11 UTC

CCP Nullarbor wrote:

Salpun wrote:

CCP Nullarbor wrote:

Jowen Datloran wrote:

Btw. you forgot to give players an option to see how much tax they have to pay (or if they are completely excluded from using the POCO) before settling on a planet.

You can see this by viewing the show info on a customs offices (or by opening up the customs office UI itself). It will either show you the tax rate applicable for you, or say access denied.

Does a message get sent when that number gets changes or is it locked in when the POCO gets built.

Will those rates show on the master export panal if so no problem but if some one has to right click everytime to check thats going to make for some very annoyed people.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

John DaiSho

Quam Singulari Industry

Roid Suckers

Likes received: 145

#54 - 2011-11-15 13:30:51 UTC

Zyrbalax III wrote:

John DaiSho wrote:

So it won't be long before the only realistic non-hi-sec options for the small / casual player (like me) are lowsec with planetary launches or wh with planetary launches or npc nullsec the same.

Thats what i meant with "PI is becoming serious business". Yes it will be harder to PI solo somewhere else then highsec but now big PI operations could be formed, "owning" several planets that are especially good for producing some stuff, maintaining their POCOs, advertising their operation, selling access to their planets, and what not.

Actually i hope that some bored pirates are blowing up the Interbus offices in lowsec relatively fast so the players can start fighting for the best planets. Of course the PI prices have to be high or noone would care fighting for it. And in the end its true that if you want to PI solo outside of highsec you will have to put alot more effort into it compared to finding some other PIers and work together, but isnt that what you should do anyway?

o/ John

CCP Nullarbor

C C P

C C P Alliance

Likes received: 1,516

#55 - 2011-11-15 13:30:56 UTC

Salpun wrote:

CCP Nullarbor wrote:

Salpun wrote:

CCP Nullarbor wrote:

Jowen Datloran wrote:

Btw. you forgot to give players an option to see how much tax they have to pay (or if they are completely excluded from using the POCO) before settling on a planet.

You can see this by viewing the show info on a customs offices (or by opening up the customs office UI itself). It will either show you the tax rate applicable for you, or say access denied.

Does a message get sent when that number gets changes or is it locked in when the POCO gets built.

Will those rates show on the master export panal if so no problem but if some one has to right click everytime to check thats going to make for some very annoyed people.

Yes as well as the total cost.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones

CCP Omen

C C P

C C P Alliance

Likes received: 184

#56 - 2011-11-15 13:33:18 UTC

Here are some replies to topics raised:

"People will grief the Interbus COs"
That is quite probable, even with this change of deployment, our guiding light is that EVE is player driven. This way the transition between NPC owned and Player owned will be smoother. It's no silver bullet and balancing between player driven and player convenience is very difficult. Our hope remain that you, the player will organize and sort out the supply and demand of PI goods and the availability of Customs Offices. If that does not happen, and there is a measurable decline in lowsec or PI activity then we will act. How we act will be decided if that event occurs, but we will not simply let lowsec die. We strive to invigorate lowsec, not just with this feature but for the long run. You may disagree that this feature will accomplish that, but that is never the less one of our goals and we will monitor how it pans out.

"Do you think more people will do PI?"
No, as many have pointed out the PI gameplay in itself is far from perfect and we are absolutely not trying to make people do PI. The player owned customs offices are meant to increase meaningful space conflict and the verisimilitude of the EVE universe. Actual improvements to PI is an entirely different topic. Having said that, we are hoping for activity to stay somewhat the same.

"Did you have a clue the prices went up based on the previous blog?"
Yes - absolutely and that was expected. We also fully expect the prices of PI goods to be unstable while the market adapts. The higher prices are in fact essential to drive motivation to operate Customs Offices. In the end, we believe the prices of for instance POS fuel will stabilize as we have seen with nearly all other player driven commodities in EVE.

"You did not account for all or even most of the feedback to the first thread"
We acted on the feedback that we agreed with and that was feasible within the time frame. Many ideas were excellent but too grand.

Regards
Omen

Senior Game Designer Team True Grit EVE/DUST Gameplay Liaison

Woo Glin

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 544

#57 - 2011-11-15 13:34:10 UTC

Quote:

The Interbus Corporation will charge slightly more tax than CONCORD and we will continue to monitor the tax rates for both CONCORD and Interbus

It was noted in a few places (see below) that the tax rates are seemingly based on some derived value rather than anything relevant to the market value, making all taxes incredibly low an giving a very narrow range of effective taxation.

Has this been looked into? I can only assume that the 'higher' tax rate is to encourage alliances to destroy the npc offices and replace them with their own, but under the current model that is less of an incentive than it might seem.

Thread:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=33468

Solo Player

Likes received: 109

#58 - 2011-11-15 13:34:56 UTC

@CCP:

I'm still missing an explanation why (for example) the Amarr Empire would just
- let a (form their perspective) terrorist organisation like Ushra'khan destroy an Interbus customs office
- and then let same terrorists tariff Amarr-built products
- even let them restrict POCO use to terrorists
on a populated planet under Amarrian Sovereignty for free!

Is this (plausibility) not a concern to you at all?


Salpun Global Telstar Federation Offices Masters of Flying Objects Likes received: 842	#59 - 2011-11-15 13:36:15 UTC WH PI was not addressed in the blog directly. All customs offices will remain until destroyed correct? If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide See you around the universe.

Haruspex Industries Wrong Alliance 5
Zeimanov Kalzumaan Haruspex Industries Wrong Alliance Likes received: 5	#60 - 2011-11-15 13:38:55 UTC Great work CCP - I'm starting to get quite concerned about this patch - has there been some sort of invasion of the body snatchers, everything is too perfect and it's making me suspicious. Just to check - will the Interbus customs offices have a reinforcement cycle? if so will it be random or will they be able to be destroyed straight off the bat?