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Why are capitals banned in high sec?

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ISD Cura Ursus
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#41 - 2013-09-20 16:41:09 UTC
Deleted rant subthread that included WOW reference and purposeful avoidance of the profanity filter.

Continue with discussion.

ISD Cura Ursus

Lieutenant Commander

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Zaxix
State War Academy
Caldari State
#42 - 2013-09-20 16:57:03 UTC
Vince Mctavern wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Freighters, orcas, and jump freighters are not capital ships.
I don't care what the market category says.

I feel the same, but more out of habit and desire for an ease of categorisation to other people than any real-world distinction. Being able to categorise Capitals as a class of ships that can only move systems 'via a jump drive to a cyno because they are too big for system gates' feels a lot cleaner than telling them that a Capital ship is one that 'requires Capital Ship Construction to build'. That just feels artificial to me somehow, and forces people unfamiliar with the ships to look up the blueprint information.

To me Freighters and Orcas will always be just 'super Industrials', but I suppose I'll grudgingly recognise them as being a form of capital ship on a good day and to avoid arguments... Lol

The term "capital" isn't a classification of purpose or role; it's a measure of size. +1mil volume or greater

Bokononist

 
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#43 - 2013-09-20 17:13:58 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Actually, in order to say a ship is a "true" capital...

- it requires capital rigs
- it requires capital skills
- it can use capital mods

The Orca is not a true capital ship in that it fulfills none of the above conditions. It uses large rigs, doesn't require any real capital skills, and it has less PG and CPU than a battleship.

With regards to Freighters and Jump Freighters... they are "special snowflakes" in more than one way. While they are considered capitals they can somehow fit through stargates. They also posses no ability to fit anything... though that is probably for the best as opening up both ships to fittings would create a host of issues (both immediate and long term).

How did you Veterans start?
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2013-09-20 18:05:13 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Actually, in order to say a ship is a "true" capital...

- it requires capital rigs
- it requires capital skills
- it can use capital mods

The Orca is not a true capital ship in that it fulfills none of the above conditions. It uses large rigs, doesn't require any real capital skills, and it has less PG and CPU than a battleship.

With regards to Freighters and Jump Freighters... they are "special snowflakes" in more than one way. While they are considered capitals they can somehow fit through stargates. They also posses no ability to fit anything... though that is probably for the best as opening up both ships to fittings would create a host of issues (both immediate and long term).



Try putting a large rail on a dread and see what happens.

I bet it's very similar as to when you put small lasers on a cruiser. (ie- it fits).

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#45 - 2013-09-20 18:09:36 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Actually, in order to say a ship is a "true" capital...

- it requires capital rigs
- it requires capital skills
- it can use capital mods

The Orca is not a true capital ship in that it fulfills none of the above conditions. It uses large rigs, doesn't require any real capital skills, and it has less PG and CPU than a battleship.

With regards to Freighters and Jump Freighters... they are "special snowflakes" in more than one way. While they are considered capitals they can somehow fit through stargates. They also posses no ability to fit anything... though that is probably for the best as opening up both ships to fittings would create a host of issues (both immediate and long term).

Try putting a large rail on a dread and see what happens.

I bet it's very similar as to when you put small lasers on a cruiser. (ie- it fits).

…and?
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#46 - 2013-09-20 18:13:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
Dread with small weapons flying disguised as frigate? Look, we have small weapons, we are harmless! Twisted

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2013-09-20 18:24:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Actually, in order to say a ship is a "true" capital...

- it requires capital rigs
- it requires capital skills
- it can use capital mods

The Orca is not a true capital ship in that it fulfills none of the above conditions. It uses large rigs, doesn't require any real capital skills, and it has less PG and CPU than a battleship.

With regards to Freighters and Jump Freighters... they are "special snowflakes" in more than one way. While they are considered capitals they can somehow fit through stargates. They also posses no ability to fit anything... though that is probably for the best as opening up both ships to fittings would create a host of issues (both immediate and long term).

Try putting a large rail on a dread and see what happens.

I bet it's very similar as to when you put small lasers on a cruiser. (ie- it fits).

…and?



And that does not make a cruiser a frigate, as was suggested by the poster I quoted.

tl;dr Capital ships do not require capital fittings.

But they are still capitals.

Capitals are capitals are capitals.

And shouldn't be in highsec.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#48 - 2013-09-20 18:34:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Plastic Psycho
Quote:
Why are capitals banned in high sec?

Why?

Same reason I can't have a coastal artillery gun in my front yard; Hilariously over-powered for any rational purpose, ludicrously impractical for any irrational purpose, worries the government, scares the neighbors and wakes their dogs, and is an eyesore besides.

If I had my own island empire, OTOH, I might have some use for it...
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#49 - 2013-09-20 18:37:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Murk Paradox wrote:
And that does not make a cruiser a frigate, as was suggested by the poster I quoted.
No. What was suggested by the poster was the exact opposite: that what makes a cruiser a cruiser rather than a frigate is its ability to fit cruiser-sized weapons or, more accurately, that what makes a capship a capship rather than some kind of subcap is its ability to fit capship modules, its required use of capital rigs, and that the capship skill is somewhere in its prereq tree.

Quote:
tl;dr Capital ships do not require capital fittings.
…and that was not the suggestion. Rather, the ability to fit capital modules separates capitals from other ship classes. Orcas, not being able to fit capital modules, therefore aren't really capital in that sense.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#50 - 2013-09-20 18:37:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Murk Paradox wrote:
(stuff)


The only "required" Capital bits Shah mentioned were rigs and skills (e.g. "Capital Trimark" and "Capital Ships, L1"). He did not say that a capship requires capital mods (just that it has the ability to fit them).

Edit -- Dammit Tippia! Cool

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#51 - 2013-09-20 18:43:40 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:

That's not the point. It's a matter of what is more feasible for inexperienced, poor, and/or already stomped players to deal with.


Since when has that ever been the point of anything? A gang of cruisers or assault frigates can already decimate 'inexperienced, poor, and/or already stomped players,' and is probably also infeasible for them to deal with. The fact that they can't deal with it is why they lose. Outside of the occasional space-rich player who owns a cap all by himself with no friends because he gets the warm fuzzies, any group that can afford to drop a cap on somebody in highsec is likely very able to drop enough stuff to kill them anyway. That may be a reason they don't 'need' the capitals at all, but the fact remains that having capitals is generally not going to sway a highsec wardec one way or the other. Cynos present a much bigger problem than the caps themselves.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#52 - 2013-09-20 18:45:56 UTC
Plastic Psycho wrote:
Quote:
Why are capitals banned in high sec?

Why?

Same reason I can't have a coastal artillery gun in my front yard; Hilariously over-powered for any rational purpose, ludicrously impractical for any irrational purpose, worries the government, scares the neighbors and wakes their dogs, and is an eyesore besides.

If I had my own island empire, OTOH, I might have some use for it...


So basically, no real reason whatsoever.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#53 - 2013-09-20 18:46:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Domanique Altares wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:

That's not the point. It's a matter of what is more feasible for inexperienced, poor, and/or already stomped players to deal with.

Since when has that ever been the point of anything?
Roughly since capships were thrown out of highsec.

They have no role to fill in that part of space and their presence would offer far too much safety, security, and firepower for the owners compared to what others can throw at them at a whim.

Quote:
So bascially, no real reason whatsoever.
…aside from having no role, and offering too much in terms of tank and firepower when coupled with the security mechanisms of highsec.
Zaxix
State War Academy
Caldari State
#54 - 2013-09-20 18:47:12 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Actually, in order to say a ship is a "true" capital...

- it requires capital rigs
- it requires capital skills
- it can use capital mods

From whence is this derived?

It's all about the size, baby.

Bokononist

 
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#55 - 2013-09-20 18:47:15 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:

That's not the point. It's a matter of what is more feasible for inexperienced, poor, and/or already stomped players to deal with.

Since when has that ever been the point of anything?
Roughly since capships were thrown out of highsec.

They have no role to fill in that part of space and their presence would offer far too much safety, security, and firepower for the owners compared to what others can throw at them at a whim.


Really? So if I had a capship in high sec, you're saying with certainty that no one else would ever have a 'whim' to send their capitals after mine?
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#56 - 2013-09-20 18:51:19 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Plastic Psycho wrote:
Quote:
Why are capitals banned in high sec?

Why?

Same reason I can't have a coastal artillery gun in my front yard; Hilariously over-powered for any rational purpose, ludicrously impractical for any irrational purpose, worries the government, scares the neighbors and wakes their dogs, and is an eyesore besides.

If I had my own island empire, OTOH, I might have some use for it...


So basically, no real reason whatsoever.

Yeah, more-or-less so. Basically "Cause CCP sez."
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#57 - 2013-09-20 18:51:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Domanique Altares wrote:
Really? So if I had a capship in high sec, you're saying with certainty that no one else would ever have a 'whim' to send their capitals after mine?

I'm saying that if you had a capship in highsec, I should be able to gank it on the undock in <5 seconds using maybe 5–10 ships flown by trial accounts.

The fact that you are escalating this on-a-whim attack to using capships demonstrates the entire problem. It is exactly that kind of requirement that is to be avoided.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#58 - 2013-09-20 18:53:19 UTC
Tippia wrote:
aside from having no role, and offering too much in terms of tank and firepower when coupled with the security mechanisms of highsec.


Which mechanisms?

Surely you're not arguing that they shouldn't be in high sec because it would be too hard/costly to gank them?

OTOH, if you're referring to station games, well, people already do it. And for the cost of a cheap capital you can do it with multiple battleships to pretty much the same effect. (If not better, since there's no strict reliance on drones, oversized weapons, etc.) So again, it's not really an argument.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#59 - 2013-09-20 18:55:14 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Which mechanisms?

Surely you're not arguing that they shouldn't be in high sec because it would be too hard/costly to gank them?
Of course I am, because that's one of the reasons they're not allowed there any more.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#60 - 2013-09-20 18:59:42 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
Which mechanisms?

Surely you're not arguing that they shouldn't be in high sec because it would be too hard/costly to gank them?
Of course I am, because that's one of the reasons they're not allowed there any more.


That's a pretty silly reason. You should get more friends and more trial accounts.