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New dev blog: Player Owned Customs Offices: An update!

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Via Shivon
#21 - 2011-11-15 12:00:29 UTC
good i sold all my PI mats before work ^^
but i thought right, doesent really work to remove all POCOS on day x...
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#22 - 2011-11-15 12:02:54 UTC
Also, I still think this is a pretty terrible idea you are trying to impose especially in low sec and NPC zero sec.
PI in its current implementation is incredible limited and consist of moving dots around and pressing a few buttons. Simplistic, tedious and boring gameplay will many agree to. But some find it interesting game play anyhow, just like some people enjoy mining. PI (on the planet) can easily be done by a solo or small corporation which gives them purpose.

Now you brilliant idea is forcing these people either into a gameplay that is pretty much the opposite of the current PI (adrenaline pumping ship to ship combat) or the option to abandon PI altogether (on their way to doing the same with EVE in general). I seriously cannot see the selling point in limiting people’s access to one game feature by letting another be able to rule over it. That is the reason why Darkfall is crap if you are interests are in crafting and market mechanics because hack’n’slash rule all. Same reason why people who enjoy fighting against other players hate when they are forced into PvE raids to get gear for these fights.

Within a month or so we will see one blob of players identifying what PI mineral is the bottleneck, stock it up and then wipe out all POCOs in low sec, or take them over to exclude everybody else, for that particular mineral. Or we will see the Goons doing us all a favor by rapidly destroying each and every POCO in low sec.

Fundamentally; did you seriously believe people would get more interested in PI when you do not improve on the actual PI mechanics but instead limits people’s access to them? What kind of player are you hoping to draw in with this?

If PvP should be a greater element in PI it should have be done on the darn planets.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Raid'En
#23 - 2011-11-15 12:06:41 UTC
so now we'll have npc offices everywhere, and if someone want to put his own, he must destroy the npc one before, then build his own, right ?
Via Shivon
#24 - 2011-11-15 12:12:10 UTC
Raid'En wrote:
so now we'll have npc offices everywhere, and if someone want to put his own, he must destroy the npc one before, then build his own, right ?


right
Dierdra Vaal
Interstellar Stargate Syndicate
#25 - 2011-11-15 12:15:21 UTC
especially the custom tax rates are a good change. Thanks CCP :)

Veto #205

Director Emeritus at EVE University

CSM1 delegate, CSM3 chairman and CSM5 vice-chairman

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Co-Author of the Galactic Party Planning Guide
smaster
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#26 - 2011-11-15 12:17:03 UTC
Will the next expansion contain the GM Extras Menu for the general public?

(please say yesssss) Big smile
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#27 - 2011-11-15 12:19:42 UTC
Ethanole wrote:
Still doesn't change the fact that the taxes are ridiculous, you should allow at least 200% tax rates for these to actually mean something, even a 15 or 20% tax rate for interbus CO's won't bother anyone, In fact I don't see anyone spending 1B on a system just to gain 5M isk per month.
I've been thinking about this, too.

At current market prices, a POCO will be 85-90m ISK in total to set up. P4 items currently cost 50k ISK in export task per unit (5%). Assuming 15% tax rate, this will be 150k ISK per P4 item. Each P4 also requires 18 P3 items to be imported. At 600 ISK p.u. currently, that would be another 600*18*3 = 32.4k ISK tax per P4 item. Or 182.4k ISK total. That is, you need to produce 494 P4 items on a planet to make the POCO pay off. That's a bit under 50k m3.

At full capacity, that would be under a week.

This is a bit off, as no one will pay 15% tax for a pure production planet if they can just pay 10% in much safer high-sec, but it should give a rough idea. It's difficult to calculate profit for extraction, as I do not know extraction numbers in low-sec.

With a 5% tax, that's still under a month.

So really, not that far off.
Apodis Blue
NOVA TECH
#28 - 2011-11-15 12:21:49 UTC
Rommiee wrote:
To quote from the latest blog “One thing that really stood out was your concern for the transition period when all customs offices will be removed”

What about the other 80-odd pages of concerns ?

The “New” CCP is supposed to be listening to the players concerns, if you are still bringing this crap in, then obviously you are not.

CCP Omen wrote:
We have gone through the thread and thanks to the efforts of the community team as well as Team Pi members sitting up all night following the thread we believe we have a pretty good grasp on your feedback and your concerns (let us know if we don't).

I guess you kept it with 1 single night up... Sad

What about the economical impact of this "so called awesome feature"? I haven't read any comments of CCP on that...
Have you actually been monitoring the ice and PI prices lately on TQ? Have you actually noticed what the announcement of this change did to those prices? (And that was just the announcement... This one and the one about the POS fuel change.)

Sorry, still not convinced this will be a "cool" feature.
Via Shivon
#29 - 2011-11-15 12:24:36 UTC
Apodis Blue wrote:
Rommiee wrote:
To quote from the latest blog “One thing that really stood out was your concern for the transition period when all customs offices will be removed”

What about the other 80-odd pages of concerns ?

The “New” CCP is supposed to be listening to the players concerns, if you are still bringing this crap in, then obviously you are not.

CCP Omen wrote:
We have gone through the thread and thanks to the efforts of the community team as well as Team Pi members sitting up all night following the thread we believe we have a pretty good grasp on your feedback and your concerns (let us know if we don't).

I guess you kept it with 1 single night up... Sad

What about the economical impact of this "so called awesome feature"? I haven't read any comments of CCP on that...
Have you actually been monitoring the ice and PI prices lately on TQ? Have you actually noticed what the announcement of this change did to those prices? (And that was just the announcement... This one and the one about the POS fuel change.)

Sorry, still not convinced this will be a "cool" feature.



omg oso much tears...the ANNOUNCEMENT did that not the feature. Heavy Water raised from 20 to 200 with 000000 reason beside the sepulation...welcome to economics
Apodis Blue
NOVA TECH
#30 - 2011-11-15 12:26:09 UTC
Zyrbalax III wrote:
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
From the ass-end of wormhole space comes a great collective sigh of relief.

Lol


... until someone shoots the Interbus CO out from under you...

... literaly from the ass-end. Making the COs owned by Interbus doesn't change a thing to their distructability.
Scarlett Ninja
Section 5
#31 - 2011-11-15 12:30:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Scarlett Ninja
Did you say you had people stay up all night reading the feedback thread?.......I think they fell asleep and told you a lie!

You have still failed to address the majority of very valid and well thought out points made in response to the initial blog.

The changes you have made will help in the transitionary period but I think people were also concerned with the long term effects.

The main omission from the follow up blog has to be that you have failed to increase the size of planetary launches!

I'm very disappointed in this reply, having read some of the other blogs and seen your quick and helpful responses this is a bit weak!

@ lowsec and 0.0 peeps, watch out for bored incursion fleets coming to a system near you to blow up those Interbus CO's.........
Solo Player
#32 - 2011-11-15 12:30:47 UTC
Could we have Interbus rebuild their CO in lowsec when there is no POCO present? Say in 24 hours?

That'd effectively save low sec from having no CO anywhere within a week or two.

Also, why shouldn't Interbus mind you shooting down their property? Instead, why not allow players to buy the CO off Interbus? Setting up a POCO is not such an interesting game mechanic, and buying it would fit within the game world a lot better.
Floydd Heywood
Doomheim
#33 - 2011-11-15 12:31:01 UTC
Rommiee wrote:
To quote from the latest blog “One thing that really stood out was your concern for the transition period when all customs offices will be removed”

What about the other 80-odd pages of concerns ?

The “New” CCP is supposed to be listening to the players concerns, if you are still bringing this crap in, then obviously you are not.


Love it how people will pretend everyone is of their opinion without any factual basis. About 20 of those pages were people saying they liked the feature as it was initially announced. Another 50 pages was people asking for the changes now implemented. Maybe the remaining 10 pages were people asking for changes that were now not implemented, or were simply whining. Only because CCP doesn't fulfill every wish someone utters on the forums, doesn't mean they "ignore the playerbase" Roll
Besbin
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#34 - 2011-11-15 12:33:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Besbin
A slight clarification suggestion:

For understanding purposes regarding the taxes for standings, you might wanna write "% tax" to indicate that the number is a tax percentage (since standings numbers looks so much alike a tax percentage). Just to make it a slight bit easier for new users to comprehend (it confused me a bit to begin with and I generally go by the notion that if I get confused, somebody else will too).

/Besbin
le chatlier
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2011-11-15 12:35:08 UTC
Solo Player wrote:
Could we have Interbus rebuild their CO in lowsec when there is no POCO present? Say in 24 hours?

That'd effectively save low sec from having no CO anywhere within a week or two.

Also, why shouldn't Interbus mind you shooting down their property? Instead, why not allow players to buy the CO off Interbus? Setting up a POCO is not such an interesting game mechanic, and buying it would fit within the game world a lot better.


this mostly. Or have a proverbial platinum chip tied to the CO that the owner can contract out instead of an option on a menu
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#36 - 2011-11-15 12:36:57 UTC
Btw. you forgot to give players an option to see how much tax they have to pay (or if they are completely excluded from using the POCO) before settling on a planet.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#37 - 2011-11-15 12:37:59 UTC
I like this change. Do the interbus offices just blow up? Do they have the same HP as regular offices?

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
John DaiSho
Quam Singulari Industry
Roid Suckers
#38 - 2011-11-15 12:46:29 UTC
The amount of people being afraid of changing PI prices in this thread is incredible. Of course prices are to change, every major Expansion has a major impact on the markets, thats nothing new. You should adapt and try to make ISK out of it.

I think this are some really good changes, it looks like PI is changing from some small 2nd profession into serious business. And starters will still be able to make good ISK from it in highsec without many skills. I am very exited about the further changes once Dust will arrive sometime.

o/ John
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#39 - 2011-11-15 12:57:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Rommiee
Floydd Heywood wrote:
Rommiee wrote:
To quote from the latest blog “One thing that really stood out was your concern for the transition period when all customs offices will be removed”

What about the other 80-odd pages of concerns ?

The “New” CCP is supposed to be listening to the players concerns, if you are still bringing this crap in, then obviously you are not.


Love it how people will pretend everyone is of their opinion without any factual basis. About 20 of those pages were people saying they liked the feature as it was initially announced. Another 50 pages was people asking for the changes now implemented. Maybe the remaining 10 pages were people asking for changes that were now not implemented, or were simply whining. Only because CCP doesn't fulfill every wish someone utters on the forums, doesn't mean they "ignore the playerbase" Roll


Love it how people have no clue.....

Let me spell it out for you on a factual basis.


This is the list of concerns from the original blog post;

User Interface not good enough
Not enough flexibility at setting taxes for the different standing levels. Player suggestion here.
Timestamp of tax collection in corp wallet could be used to collect intel on people doing PI.
Tax management bad for large entities, necessary to include alliance level also.
Finding “suitable” PCOs without going from system to system near impossible.
Advertising tax rate for PCO and checking for competitors extremely difficult.

Problems during transition period
No BPCs available before wipe of the existing Customs Offices, transition becomes very difficult.
Disruption of PI due to the transition might become a major problem.
Lack of Gantries and PCOs during the transition

Lowsec changes caters only griefing
Lowsec will get devastated since every random group can bust PCOs without drawback
Risk/Reward in Lowsec is completely wrong, no good enough profit from PI in Lowsec.

Nullsec changes only good for blobs and large groups
Shuts out small groups from 0.0 as they can’t compete with big blobs
Large 0.0 alliances will never allow independent small groups (as seen in the past)
PCO owners won’t allow access of neutrals, this encourages only big blobs
Supercap blob heaven shooting up those defenceless structures

Bad effects on other industries
PI prices will increase drastically, affecting POS owners heavily, making it more difficult for the small/new people

Wormholes
Reinforcement timer in Wormholes too long for roaming gangs to do any serious damage
Transition in Wormholes will be especially difficult without prior BPC release
Wormhole corporations will lock out everyone else, no Ninja-PI possible

Pricelevels are off, PCOs will be unprofitable
PCOs will be unprofitable and not worth the invested time and especially ISK
Income from PCOs will be too low to justify the build costs and risk deploying them
Taxrate will be either near 0 or near 100
Taxes in Highsec for P4 products too high

Worries about general mechanics
Only one PCO per planet is not good enough and hinders competition.
Too big changes with not enough thoughts being put into the resulting effects on the sandbox as whole
Defenceless PCOs are bad and encourage random griefing and no ‘constructive’ destruction
Transport rocket from player surface is not large enough to prevent being locked out prom planets
P4 producers are especially hit hard when no PCO is around, rocket won’t help here

Change of playstyle to more blobbing and griefing, hurting small people
Encourages blobbing
Discourages small gang warfare
Hurts the small people most, benefits large blobs most
Encourages griefing a lot as there is no risk in attacking PCOs
Easy griefing PCOs discourages constructive gameplay
Giving away control to people who do not really care about it – heavy grief play results.
Lowsec/Nullsec exclusively for corps and alliances only now
More boring structure shooting and grinding
Extremely asymmetric , catering to the attackers and griefers
Forces people into corporations if they want to do PCO, big change of playstyle

Bad for casual gameplay
Hurts the casual player since they normally won’t get the required corp roles to deploy PCOs
PI changes from low risk, low income to high risk, very boring, medium income
Why roles at all for POCs? That only hurts casual games without roles

Details of the structures
Size of the gantry is bad, it doesn’t fit into all racial blockade runners. Either make it small enough to fit into all blockade runners or large enough that it doesn’t fit into any runner


Soooo... Floydd Heywood
How many of these concerns have been addressed and changed for the better, do you think ?
Nirnaeth Ornoediad
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#40 - 2011-11-15 13:07:29 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Well, the only boneheaded part left is requiring LPs for the blueprints. Hard to get LPs in wormholes... unless you start giving Concord LPs for killing Sleepers...


It's called "trading", and involves interacting with other players. Wormholes are not meant to be 100% self-sufficient, and nor should they be. Interdependence drives conflict.

Fix POSes.  Every player should want one (even if all players can't have one).