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Why are capitals banned in high sec?

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Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#21 - 2013-09-19 22:29:21 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
PhatController wrote:
Tore Vest wrote:
Capitals are not banned in highsec.... cynos are


Incorrect, CCP have moved several capitals from before the ban on highsec capitals to null.

No, you can in fact have capitals in hisec (see: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Veldnaught), you just aren't allowed to use their guns, shoot anything, or rep anything. But *having* the capitals in hisec is not strictly forbidden.

Yup! The rules are here in the forums:

Capital ships in high security systems rules updated

Signatures should be used responsibly...
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2013-09-19 22:34:06 UTC
atpc wrote:
BoBoZoBo wrote:
Tore Vest wrote:
Capitals are not banned in highsec.... cynos are


I appreciate this man's application of specification.


To be fair its a good fact to state. Since there are capital ships in highsec (freighters, orcas, etc).

Freighters, orcas, and jump freighters are not capital ships.
I don't care what the market category says.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#23 - 2013-09-20 00:45:45 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Domanique Altares wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Outside of what Tippa said...

Look up the stats of capital reps (local and remote) and capital jump drives... then crunch some numbers.

Now take "normal" annoying situations like station games, high-sec war decs, and force projection and apply those same numbers.


I don't personally see this as a reason to disallow them. People can already either win their high sec wars, or they can't. If someone can field capitals for a high sec war, then they were already capable of fielding enough of anything else to stomp someone's ass, and likely at a much cheaper price.

That's not the point. It's a matter of what is more feasible for inexperienced, poor, and/or already stomped players to deal with.

There is a rather large difference between dealing with one or two logistics ships with 40 to 50k ehp tanks that can each remote rep around 300 dps... and a carrier that has a ~800-1000 dps local tank with 800k+ ehp of buffer and can remote rep about 1200 dps total (double or triple those numbers when a carrier is in Triage).
Hell... even battleships that have been shoehorned into a logistics role are far more easily countered than a carrier (hint: bump either the remote rep giver or receiver out of range).


As far as capital vulnerabilities... capitals are vulnerable in low-sec and null-sec because ANYONE can attack them at any time.
So if someone hotdrops a small corp in low-sec... all those people have to do is hold down the ships and live long enough for a "bigger fish" to smell the blood in the water (even if they are not allied with them).
In high-sec there are less potential threats to a capital as engagements can be tightly controlled through the war/aggression mechanics (that are ironically the same mechanics that are supposed to "help" people who wish to avoid/defend against combat in the first place).

How did you Veterans start?
Tarn Kugisa
Kugisa Dynamics
#24 - 2013-09-20 03:22:38 UTC
bloodknight2 wrote:
I wouldn't be against letting capitals ship entering empire, but for a short amount of time. Something like 24h before the navy or any players can freely shoot it without Concord interfering. This way, caps would be able to move from one null/LS region to another one using hi sec. Of course, no weapons or drones could be used in this 24h (so, no carrier doing lv4 or dread used to bash a pos in empire) and no, we couldn't still build them in empire.


except there's enough lowsec in the highsec regions to make moving through them easy

Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to troll everyone you meet - KuroVolt
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-09-20 04:12:10 UTC
UmbraIra wrote:
I cant think of a reason for it. Concord Melts them just as fast as any other ship and theyre not really useful for ganking due to damage application vs non capitals. Ship restrictions seem against the spirit of the game.

Is CCP afraid of Jita 4-4 exploding in a glorious rain of doomsday weapons? (Note I am unaware if NPC stations can even take damage)



You can go in high sec if iam right but only for incursion so well there you have it. Ow you need a jump bridge to. If iam right.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2013-09-20 04:45:54 UTC
Johan Civire wrote:
UmbraIra wrote:
I cant think of a reason for it. Concord Melts them just as fast as any other ship and theyre not really useful for ganking due to damage application vs non capitals. Ship restrictions seem against the spirit of the game.

Is CCP afraid of Jita 4-4 exploding in a glorious rain of doomsday weapons? (Note I am unaware if NPC stations can even take damage)



You can go in high sec if iam right but only for incursion so well there you have it. Ow you need a jump bridge to. If iam right.

What in the world gave you that idea?

Incursions are cynojammed wherever they happen to be. So even if there's an incursion in low or null you can't bring a capital in there if it isn't already there. The only exception is if there happens to be a wormhole big enough to let your capital through.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Chic Botany
Doomheim
#27 - 2013-09-20 06:13:14 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
atpc wrote:
BoBoZoBo wrote:
Tore Vest wrote:
Capitals are not banned in highsec.... cynos are


I appreciate this man's application of specification.


To be fair its a good fact to state. Since there are capital ships in highsec (freighters, orcas, etc).

Freighters, orcas, and jump freighters are not capital ships.
I don't care what the market category says.



Erm so CCP say they're capital ships, the market category says they're capital ships, you need Capital Ship Construction to build them, yet you still insist they're not capital ships?

maybe the problem is you not the rest of the world Lol

They are capital ships, just a different capital ship than carriers, dreads, supercaps & titans.

As for the main subject, Combat Capital Ships (carriers, dreads etc) in high would be a bad idea since they would be vastly overpowered against anything other than similar class ships, there would have to be so many caveats to allowing them in such as.
The inability to target anything
Tank severely reduced to maybe double a battleship tank
Any extra boosting bonuses (the rorqual) disabled.

Basically the ability to buy/sell them in high sec, but since Combat Capitals & Rorquals can't use stargates that would also have to be addressed, or the allowing of cyno's in highsec.
So maybe allow them through as passing only, so you didn't have to park cyno chars all over the place, but even then it's not something I would like to see. Can you imagine the traffic jam outside Jita 4-4 Cnap as dozens of carriers / dreads start undocking, it's bad enough with freighters Shocked
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#28 - 2013-09-20 07:43:32 UTC
Think about it, High sec is empire space, and they have their own Capitals (WHERE ARE THEY!), so you cant get with yours if you are from "outside" (you greedy pirate, I am talking about you!).

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2013-09-20 07:51:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Chic Botany wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
atpc wrote:
BoBoZoBo wrote:
Tore Vest wrote:
Capitals are not banned in highsec.... cynos are


I appreciate this man's application of specification.


To be fair its a good fact to state. Since there are capital ships in highsec (freighters, orcas, etc).

Freighters, orcas, and jump freighters are not capital ships.
I don't care what the market category says.



Erm so CCP say they're capital ships, the market category says they're capital ships, you need Capital Ship Construction to build them, yet you still insist they're not capital ships?

maybe the problem is you not the rest of the world Lol

They are capital ships, just a different capital ship than carriers, dreads, supercaps & titans.

As for the main subject, Combat Capital Ships (carriers, dreads etc) in high would be a bad idea since they would be vastly overpowered against anything other than similar class ships, there would have to be so many caveats to allowing them in such as.
The inability to target anything
Tank severely reduced to maybe double a battleship tank
Any extra boosting bonuses (the rorqual) disabled.

Basically the ability to buy/sell them in high sec, but since Combat Capitals & Rorquals can't use stargates that would also have to be addressed, or the allowing of cyno's in highsec.
So maybe allow them through as passing only, so you didn't have to park cyno chars all over the place, but even then it's not something I would like to see. Can you imagine the traffic jam outside Jita 4-4 Cnap as dozens of carriers / dreads start undocking, it's bad enough with freighters Shocked

Not really true. A super can be killed easily by around 20 sub caps. You can guarantee that anyone foolish enough to employ caps in highsec during war would find a crapload of allies joining up with their target to help kill the caps.

Given the number of nuets in local it'd be suicidal to use them. Any nuet could be a cyno alt or a bumper.

In my opinion it was because of the Titan super weapon and the inferiority of sub caps vs the OP,ness of caps at the time. Most or all of which has been nerfed to reasonable levels now.

Give you an example: on test I tanked a carrier in my bulkhead DCU fitted mega for about 5 minutes before his crappy dps popped me.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2013-09-20 08:49:35 UTC
Tore Vest wrote:
Capitals are not banned in highsec.... cynos are


If they gotta ban something in a place, it's probably a terrible idea in the first place.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Steve Spooner
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#31 - 2013-09-20 09:55:41 UTC
It is not economically feasible and in practice not even lolworthy to try to gank a slowcat with 4 million ehp before concord concordukens your 250 man talos fleet.
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#32 - 2013-09-20 09:59:21 UTC
UmbraIra wrote:
I cant think of a reason for it. Concord Melts them just as fast as any other ship and theyre not really useful for ganking due to damage application vs non capitals. Ship restrictions seem against the spirit of the game.

Is CCP afraid of Jita 4-4 exploding in a glorious rain of doomsday weapons? (Note I am unaware if NPC stations can even take damage)


Posting in a stealth "allow Rorqual in High Sec" thread.
take this filthy miner!

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Gealbhan
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-09-20 10:54:43 UTC
Capitol ships themselves are not banned in hi-sec. The cynosural field (an artificial gravity well) that a Capitol Ship's jump drive needs to lock on to in order to make a jump is banned in Hi-sec. Arrow
Daisai
Daisai Investments.
#34 - 2013-09-20 11:08:33 UTC
UmbraIra wrote:
I cant think of a reason for it. Concord Melts them just as fast as any other ship and theyre not really useful for ganking due to damage application vs non capitals. Ship restrictions seem against the spirit of the game.

Is CCP afraid of Jita 4-4 exploding in a glorious rain of doomsday weapons? (Note I am unaware if NPC stations can even take damage)




If that would be so then low sec would be completely useless and the only reason to have those systems is the few systems with FW in them.
Also high sec is the starting area for players, its where you learn the first basics of pvp in this game.

Null sec however is the end game pvp experience where everything is allowed.
brinelan
#35 - 2013-09-20 11:37:08 UTC
Whats wrong with having differences between areas of space? Want a cap then get out of hisec.
Vince Mctavern
Anara Sol
#36 - 2013-09-20 14:21:47 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Freighters, orcas, and jump freighters are not capital ships.
I don't care what the market category says.

I feel the same, but more out of habit and desire for an ease of categorisation to other people than any real-world distinction. Being able to categorise Capitals as a class of ships that can only move systems 'via a jump drive to a cyno because they are too big for system gates' feels a lot cleaner than telling them that a Capital ship is one that 'requires Capital Ship Construction to build'. That just feels artificial to me somehow, and forces people unfamiliar with the ships to look up the blueprint information.

To me Freighters and Orcas will always be just 'super Industrials', but I suppose I'll grudgingly recognise them as being a form of capital ship on a good day and to avoid arguments... Lol
Lady Naween
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2013-09-20 14:58:11 UTC
I am all for letting capitals into higsec, but in order to balance it let us remove concord so we can shoot at them as well. :) should make everyone happy right? Highsec gets capitals and gets to have more fun.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2013-09-20 16:30:18 UTC
Gealbhan wrote:
Capitol ships themselves are not banned in hi-sec. The cynosural field (an artificial gravity well) that a Capitol Ship's jump drive needs to lock on to in order to make a jump is banned in Hi-sec. Arrow



Try building one.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2013-09-20 16:30:57 UTC
Daisai wrote:
UmbraIra wrote:
I cant think of a reason for it. Concord Melts them just as fast as any other ship and theyre not really useful for ganking due to damage application vs non capitals. Ship restrictions seem against the spirit of the game.

Is CCP afraid of Jita 4-4 exploding in a glorious rain of doomsday weapons? (Note I am unaware if NPC stations can even take damage)




If that would be so then low sec would be completely useless and the only reason to have those systems is the few systems with FW in them.
Also high sec is the starting area for players, its where you learn the first basics of pvp in this game.

Null sec however is the end game pvp experience where everything is allowed.



wut?

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Alistair Cononach
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#40 - 2013-09-20 16:31:11 UTC
RP/Lore Reason: High-Sec is Empire Sovreign Space. They ay let you sail your catamaran into New York Harbour, they're not going to let you sail your Aircraft Carrier or Battleship to new York Harbour.

Gameplay Reason: High-Sec is for newer, younger players and for players who prefer a gameplay option different from low and null-sec. Changing Cap rules would eliminate that player-choice fo gameplay style.

Game Design Reason: Other than PvP, there is no game content in High-Sec designed for Capital Class combat ships.

Game Design Decision #2: One of the limitations/drawbacks of Capital Design is difficulty to move around, i.e. no using Star Gates and no going into High-Sec. If we remove these drawbacks, their combat capabillity wound need nerfed to compensate.

In summation: Caps being effectively banned in High-Sec is a lore-consistent choice than meets all the basic needs of intelligent game design, allowing players to choose their cap-free space option while not banning others from caps in low and null, and imposes a reasonbale drawback on Caps that offset their great power.

TLDR Version?

Deal with it.