EVE General Discussion

if your point is that the language of the TOS update is confusing, then i'd have to agree. that's why there's a thread to clarify the matter.

1. you cannot claim to be an alt or a friend of another character. true, if the other character is not one you yourself own. false, if the other character is you.

here, i rather like @zaxis' very reasonable post. basically, if you claim to be XXX, an extension of an alt or a corporation YYY (that you own) in order to further a scam, and you readily admit this as both XXX and YYY, then there shouldn't be consequences. in my mind, this would simply be viewed as a scam being perpetrated by YYY, which is permitted. this is also a reasonable assumption based on Grimmi's reading of the TOS and clarification linked above.

it is malicious, but it is NOT impersonation. also, it costs CCP nothing to manage this process.

one might argue that a corporation (let's say the goons) publicly gives anyone the authority to be associated with them and scam in their name, that also should not be seen as impersonation because the authority is real.

if you mean to claim to be an extension of YYY, but you do not own or otherwise "legally" represent YYY, then it's impersonation with malicious intent.

malicious impersonation under the game mechanics does not have any tangible consequences (disposable alts/accounts will make this impossible for the victim to have any form of recourse). so like in the real world, appeal to higher authority is required.

this does add cost for CCP to manage.

2. "meta" indicates an abstraction. if AAA trusts BBB, that's just trust. if AAA trusts CCC because CCC claims to be BBB, that's meta trust. it is abstracted. this applies both in and out of game, but yes, it is a semantic argument that has little bearing on the actual discussion. i apologise for even bringing it up.

3. you CAN claim association for the purposes of roleplay.

"Benevolent roleplaying of NPC entities may not be considered to warrant action in regards to impersonation while malicious activity employing such trickery will not be tolerated."

if you roleplay being part of the Guristas, i don't see how that can be construed as being a violation of the terms of service, nor can i see any grounds for you to be reported for doing such in the first place. if you create a toon named The Big Gurlista and start a corp called Gurlista Gangstas and go around in a revenge spree, ganking hulks in caldari space and leaving behind tags, that would be rather unimaginative roleplay, but largely harmless insofar as my interpretation of the TOS goes.

CCP might object to the names, or the damage to the storyline canon, but i cannot imagine this to be something that warrants a permaban. while the act of ganking itself may be considered malicious, the intent of the impersonation is to create immersive RP for yourself - a perfectly sandbox-y thing to do.

i can see a grey area where you roleplay as being The Big Gurlista, but instead go to jita selling "magic veldspar" that protects your ship from being aggroed by Gurista NPCs in Gurista space. the obvious scam aside, this behaviour is largely harmless. but now you're claiming to be affiliated with an NPC corp in order to conduct a scam, the intent of the impersonation is malicious.

i personally wouldn't consider that serious enough to warrant a ban, but it's certainly much more grey as far as the TOS changes go.

that grey aside, my above statement still stands. you can claim association for the purposes of RP, but not to create the illusion of trustworthiness to further a scam.



4. nothing so absurd as a code of honor. i just find it ludicrous that someone who harvests tears by stomping on other children's sandcastles should shed tears when his own sandcastle is stomped on. i mean, come on. that's what this is, isn't it? waah waah. give me my toys back! waah waah waah.

5. am not. are too. am not. are too.



good question. am i an alt? am i impersonating a fictional character that isiah mustafa impersonates? can i earn a ban (or at least a name change) for parody?

whoa. deep.

Yup, it's one of the major sticking points in this whole disaster, and should not be allowed to stand. There is effectively no such thing as a "scam" in Eve. An action either breaks the EULA/ToS or it doesn't, CCP should not police in-game transactions.

It was generally figured that this statement would roll about at some point or another. But, still, I'd just like to give my personal thanks for clearing that up, as when I read the initial post about impersonating myself I almost **** a brick.

Here's to the hopes the rest of this TOS debacle will get sorted out just as satisfactory as this bit!

he he, All you Forum Trolls are so taken by your own version of petty politics, have you nothing real in your life that you could be doing, rather than bitching and moaning over a pedantic use of inflated grammer that is meaningless to most of you. You have ALREADY solved the problem people, STFU and move on, ha ha.

The more CCP desides to interfere with gameplay like this, pad new or dumb players alike, the more eve will lose it self.

Do I love sci fi, and flying internet spaceship, you bet. But what I truly love about eve, is the sandbox feeling, of being able to do anything, just like real life, including scam/fool or simply ROB unsuspecting retards ( will piracy and blob rapage become against the eula next?)
Like the totally unneeded change to anoms, where it went from skilled scan downs, to one click warps. Dont be like goverments, dont **** with us. Leave us be, and make the virtual world we love work !\ . /!

On a personal note; I think scammers them selfs are somewhat ********, and I dispise their actions, but really, what is the difference between scammers and those that run of with the coffer of a huge alliance or corp. They still steal value others have either paid RL money for, or spent countless hours in game producing.

P.S
GM Spiral should consider banning him self for his decision to ban the player scamming fellow players for half a trillion isk. Its to desperate a move, by a company running out of creativity and will to evolve this greatest of games. You were met with a challenge by an adventures player, and simply smashing the banhammer on hes head is like pissing once pants to keep warm. There is nothing to stop this individual from comming back and continue exploring ways to earn isk by stepping other players, nor discuraging other players doing the same,or even worse.
And this comes from a player who really dispise scammers, and have a very ambivalent relation to his membership by proxy to some of the most notorius scammers in eve.

The font issue is minor, and is easily solved by employing actual legible font and making it clear that names should be read carefully.

Sorry .. yes that is somewhat better. That is not relying on the game mechanics themselves to create a new kind of scam _etireley_

The "i'm his alt" scam does hinge on the idea that One person can bet Two people -- That Chirba, can be someone else too.

That scam is based upon the a wrinkle in the nature of a game with Alts ....
... alts are not exactly "mechanics" yet they are say.. "a unique abstraction related to the scaffold created" ?

Should someone say "I am chirba's friend" it is clear that the con is not based upon oddities of the way the Abastraction scaflold/ mechanics of the game are designed

If you are correct, that now "Trust me, I'm a friend of Chirba" is against the T.O.S. yes I agree that is a pretty big change in the spirit of the game. That really does not hinge at all on oddities created by need for abstraction in virtual world creation.

I can support the idea that Characters reputations add a lot to the game and without the game abstraction they're be all sorts of other clues to know whether the person you were talking to was really who you thought.... the way other people around react with respect... custom paint jobs on rims.... "legacy area code on the phone number' etc.

"Hey there.. its me Chirba.. this is my alt. Welcome to EVE, nothing makes me happier than see new people come to the game and gain a taste for Veldespar ! ... Yes, its a shame. I know you want something that shoots more than Asteroids but I hope you use it to good cause protecting miners!. So, Lets get to it. I have an Archon in Harkonen (just next to high sec) that I can sell you right away if you like. I guy just traded up to a Nyx and I took it as partial payment. Is today too soon? I have another person interested if you've prefer to wait"

I have to say, though that I might agree with CCP that my hypothetical conversation below, isn't much better than the above...

"I do business with Chirba. You're new to EVE so be sure to always check references. Here are links to three forum posts at mainstream EVE sites where Chirba's associates are listed and verified by whole threads of players. NEVER trust anyone until you see that. Ok so , now that you know who I am, I'll give you Chirba's whole spiel... "Welcome to EVE.... nothing makes me .... "

it still is predicated upon an abilty to fabricate references without as many tell-tale warnings ... but. I have mixed feelings.. most of me thinks that my second script is a more acceptable misrepresentation as it even warns the person to verify their idenity ... a reminder that means something even if it comes along with fake references fabricated at other sites.

3) ,, this one seems fair for sure:
If it was... "Chirba offered me this great deal on a Nyx but I need to find a buyer for my Archon. You're probably not ready for a capital ship yet but I looked at your killboard record and you look like you're really hitting stride with the game. You've probably met some people you fleet with that are looking for an Archon.. its actually a stupid good deal maybe because I bought it 2 years ago and I'll sell it for the cost I paid then.....half of todays cost. . Anyway ask in your corp and let me know.. if I don't answer your chat request right away its because I'm scrambling talking to everyone I can to find a buyer right now."

That .. I hope they don't ban that!

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or the same said a bit differently:

Not as glaring a use of the mechanic itself to provide opportunity for a crime.. but still one that could not be accomplished without the odd game quirk of multiple identities

... . they idea that "I'm really someone I'm not, trust me like you would trust him" is laughable without the Meta abstraction created by the game itself.

I'm wondering if the TOS is written such as to mean outside of game.

Like if I were to say I was an alt of Chribba and I forgot my password. Or any other customer service related issue.

Even after a whole new week of this I still cannot wrap my head around being banned for claiming to be someone else in game.

It is just too far fetched as to what Eve is.

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I joined EVE because it was a game that promised to punish people too stupid to check with my main if I claimed to be an alt. Please go back to that. I should be able to say I am anybody's alt. It isn't like it is hard to vertify if they aren't an idiot.