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Terms of Service CSM Feedback Thread

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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#321 - 2013-09-19 15:59:56 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
GM Grimmi wrote:
Hello everyone,

I just want to clear up one little misunderstanding here once and for all.

You cannot impersonate yourself.

Telling others that you’re an alt of a character you own or telling them what other characters you own is not a EULA/TOS violation and will not get you banned.


So you've decided to put yourself in the position of confirming who owns what alts. That's cool.

If someone scams me based on claiming they're an alt of someone else, and I petition it, if they don't get banned, I know they're actually the alt, and the GMs have just given out private information.


GM Karidor wasn't wrong in ruling that you can't change your actions towards "impersonation" based on who owns the character. The problem lies in the policy on impersonation generally.


Also, how did we "misunderstand" anything? GM Karidor explicitly stated that you could be banned for "impersonating" yourself. Either you're trying to roll back a change without anyone noticing, or one of your Senior GMs doesn't understand your policies.

In the second case, if your senior GMs don't understand your policies, how can you expect your players to understand them in order to follow them?

Clearly it's our fault that we misunderstood this:
GM Karidor wrote:
What needs to be kept in mind regarding impersonations is that all characters involved are seen as their own, independent entity, which effectively means it's quite possible that a situation may appear where a player impersonates his trustworthy main character using an alt character located on the same account. As there is no in-game way to verify whether or not certain characters are located on the same account (the API needs the key and external tools to be read properly, so that one doesn't count here), this case would be handled the very same way as the impersonator character being owned by another player.

to mean that "impersonating" your own alt was against the rules.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#322 - 2013-09-19 16:01:26 UTC
GM Grimmi wrote:
You cannot impersonate yourself.


This one line sounds like 'This is against the TOS', rather than 'It is impossible to do because you are you.'
Thomas Gilmour
Doomheim
#323 - 2013-09-19 16:03:03 UTC
GM Grimmi wrote:
Hello everyone,

I just want to clear up one little misunderstanding here once and for all.

You cannot impersonate yourself.

Telling others that you’re an alt of a character you own or telling them what other characters you own is not a EULA/TOS violation and will not get you banned.

With the possible exception of using your own alt to mimic your character using spelling trickery in order to trick people into accepting duels with a high skill monster when they thought they were going to duel with puny noob or something like that, and possibly some extreme weird and outlandish edge case we haven’t thought of yet – you cannot impersonate yourself. The example above would not even be self-impersonation as much as it would just be a simple spelling trickery type of deal where it doesn’t really matter who owns the characters in question.

Impersonating yourself does not follow good logic since you are yourself and that is not a violation of any policies we have.

Thanks for reading.

Lead GM Grimmi

As self-contradicting as ever, Good Job CCP.
digi
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#324 - 2013-09-19 16:03:50 UTC
I'm schizophrenic and so am I.
mynna
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#325 - 2013-09-19 16:09:32 UTC
GM Grimmi wrote:
Hello everyone,

I just want to clear up one little misunderstanding here once and for all.

You cannot impersonate yourself.

Telling others that you’re an alt of a character you own or telling them what other characters you own is not a EULA/TOS violation and will not get you banned.

With the possible exception of using your own alt to mimic your character using spelling trickery in order to trick people into accepting duels with a high skill monster when they thought they were going to duel with puny noob or something like that, and possibly some extreme weird and outlandish edge case we haven’t thought of yet – you cannot impersonate yourself. The example above would not even be self-impersonation as much as it would just be a simple spelling trickery type of deal where it doesn’t really matter who owns the characters in question.

Impersonating yourself does not follow good logic since you are yourself and that is not a violation of any policies we have.

Thanks for reading.

Lead GM Grimmi


I am so glad to hear this.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#326 - 2013-09-19 16:10:31 UTC
I am glad this "misunderstanding" that apparently sprung wholly formed from the playerbase and was not at all reading the words GMs wrote on these forums has been "clarified" and certainly not "I guess we should reverse that utterly insane policy but avoid taking responsibility for it".

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#327 - 2013-09-19 16:10:53 UTC
mynna wrote:
GM Grimmi wrote:
Hello everyone,

I just want to clear up one little misunderstanding here once and for all.

You cannot impersonate yourself.

Telling others that you’re an alt of a character you own or telling them what other characters you own is not a EULA/TOS violation and will not get you banned.

With the possible exception of using your own alt to mimic your character using spelling trickery in order to trick people into accepting duels with a high skill monster when they thought they were going to duel with puny noob or something like that, and possibly some extreme weird and outlandish edge case we haven’t thought of yet – you cannot impersonate yourself. The example above would not even be self-impersonation as much as it would just be a simple spelling trickery type of deal where it doesn’t really matter who owns the characters in question.

Impersonating yourself does not follow good logic since you are yourself and that is not a violation of any policies we have.

Thanks for reading.

Lead GM Grimmi


I am so glad to hear this.


+1, person who totally is in fact me.


Now, about the rest of the changes...

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Trebor Deahdoow
Doomheim
#328 - 2013-09-19 16:13:29 UTC
I for one welcome this clarification.

"I am not the CSM chairman you're looking for..."
FOl2TY8
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#329 - 2013-09-19 16:13:56 UTC
WHAT DOES THIS ALL MEAN!?!?!
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#330 - 2013-09-19 16:16:45 UTC
Good post! Though I wish you had left out the entire second part as that is another wonderland rabbit hole.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#331 - 2013-09-19 16:29:49 UTC
I don't think it's a good post at all because it indicates to me that they're still trying unsuccessfully to navigate this morass that these rules inevitably lead to. Fix your font and make it clear that people should read everything carefully because CCP does not police transactions that occur within the game.

There is no way to "clarify" yourselves out of this mess that you got yourselves into. I understand that there's an institutional and cultural tendency within enforcement communities to make rules upon rules, but the only solution here is to accept this class of rules as unenforceable, not waste more time, effort, and customer patience stumbling around constant clarifications of clarifications.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Rekkr Nordgard
Steelforge Heavy Industries
#332 - 2013-09-19 16:34:30 UTC
GM Grimmi wrote:
Hello everyone,

I just want to clear up one little misunderstanding here once and for all.

You cannot impersonate yourself.

Telling others that you’re an alt of a character you own or telling them what other characters you own is not a EULA/TOS violation and will not get you banned.


GM Karidor repeatedly said the exact opposite of that, so which one of you are we supposed to believe exactly? And how are we supposed to trust that this new ToS will be used in the way you say when not even CCP can get their stories straight on what it means or whether or not it changes anything?
Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#333 - 2013-09-19 16:35:00 UTC
GM Grimmi wrote:
Hello everyone,

I just want to clear up one little misunderstanding here once and for all.

You cannot impersonate yourself.

Telling others that you’re an alt of a character you own or telling them what other characters you own is not a EULA/TOS violation and will not get you banned.

With the possible exception of using your own alt to mimic your character using spelling trickery in order to trick people into accepting duels with a high skill monster when they thought they were going to duel with puny noob or something like that, and possibly some extreme weird and outlandish edge case we haven’t thought of yet – you cannot impersonate yourself. The example above would not even be self-impersonation as much as it would just be a simple spelling trickery type of deal where it doesn’t really matter who owns the characters in question.

Impersonating yourself does not follow good logic since you are yourself and that is not a violation of any policies we have.

Thanks for reading.

Lead GM Grimmi

Can I use this so I can get an alt of mine a name change?

The alt has 1 letter difference then this one.

Or should I petition myself for impersonating myself in order to get a name change?

...
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#334 - 2013-09-19 17:53:43 UTC
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:

Or should I petition myself for impersonating myself in order to get a name change?

you can also use what I am given to understand is a time-honored tradition of making up some racial slur your name references, adding it to urbandictionary or the like, then getting a friend to petition it as racially offensive

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#335 - 2013-09-19 17:57:33 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:

Or should I petition myself for impersonating myself in order to get a name change?

you can also use what I am given to understand is a time-honored tradition of making up some racial slur your name references, adding it to urbandictionary or the like, then getting a friend to petition it as racially offensive

That's my final option...

...
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#336 - 2013-09-19 18:04:12 UTC
GM Grimmi wrote:
Hello everyone,

I just want to clear up one little misunderstanding here once and for all.

You cannot impersonate yourself.

I'm citing this as prime example of why whatever wording you end up with, it needs to be clear unto itself and not broad, over-reaching, or open to GM interpretation (which must be kept confidential).

Why? Because one of your Senior GMs told everyone the exact opposite of exactly what you're saying here. If your senior GMs need to be corrected in public (and lets not pretend this is anything but that) then god knows what imagined rules junior GMs are applying.

Telling us the rules are OK because "you can trust us to be consistent" whilst being wildly inconsistent just doesn't fly.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#337 - 2013-09-19 18:07:23 UTC
If I wasn't clear enough - 'the misunderstanding' (passive tense FTW right?) was on part of the GM team, not the playerbase. We already knew this was silly.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#338 - 2013-09-19 18:36:02 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
I'm starting to consider a possibility:

What if none of the GMs actually speak English, and are using Google Translate to fake it?

That might explain their fantastical usage of the words "clarification" and "misunderstanding."


To put it another way:

You keep using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.[/Patinkin]

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Doris Dents
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#339 - 2013-09-19 18:56:13 UTC
I hope CCP doesn't consider this settled.
Apollo Eros
Percussive Diplomacy
Sedition.
#340 - 2013-09-19 21:07:21 UTC
GM Grimmi wrote:
Hello everyone,

I just want to clear up one little misunderstanding here once and for all.

You cannot impersonate yourself.

Telling others that you’re an alt of a character you own or telling them what other characters you own is not a EULA/TOS violation and will not get you banned.

With the possible exception of using your own alt to mimic your character using spelling trickery in order to trick people into accepting duels with a high skill monster when they thought they were going to duel with puny noob or something like that, and possibly some extreme weird and outlandish edge case we haven’t thought of yet – you cannot impersonate yourself. The example above would not even be self-impersonation as much as it would just be a simple spelling trickery type of deal where it doesn’t really matter who owns the characters in question.

Impersonating yourself does not follow good logic since you are yourself and that is not a violation of any policies we have.

Thanks for reading.

Lead GM Grimmi



Honestly this has gotten out of control and a bit ridiculous.

Grimmi. You base your hypothetical case off the fact that a name is changed to get a noob to dual you. Why does any of this matter? They die once and hopefully they will learn their lesson. Your methodology makes no sense what you are doing is encouraging petition and petition over losses. I thought this game was about actions and consequences.

All you are doing by throwing these hypothetical situations out there is stirring the pot. Adding fuel to the fire or whatever terms you use up in the land of ice.

This game is a sandbox. Where the "Meta" Plays into the every day shaping of the universe. The way you are wording erhm. excuse me not changing but vaguely clarifying TOS rules seems like a knee jerk reaction.

When I started playing this game it was because of the stories. I was told hey do not RMT and if people fall for things they will learn.

Oh and by the way I am pretty sure that with the route you would like to go most of the things you praise and promote your game over

https://truestories.eveonline.com/truestories/index.html

Would not be possible? Am I correct?

Impersonating a employee of CCP or volunteer I understand. However the other side of me believes that if someone actually falls for that they probably deserved it.

If you restrict the current meta. You would have the equivalent of GTA and that is a lonely person simulator. The interactions to allies and enemies you make. The espionage and most importantly the exploding of space ships is what we all love. That is why you have gotten a 80 page thread naught. That is why we are contributing and telling you how we feel here. Because people care and are passionate about this universe. I have a feeling some of you are taking this as whining etc. But we want you to hear us out. Objectively.






[Triple OG LVL 5 Space Wizard]