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Tactics for defending Faction Warfare plexes with a brawler?
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Sleban
Pole Shift Incorporated
#1 - 2013-09-16 09:43:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Sleban
It seems to me that, depending on type of ship you have, the critical initial phase of attacking or defending a FW plex is down to whether you can get the scram / web on, or evade it.

I've a few fairly detailed questions about this which someone can answer.

Let's assume you are defending a novice plex with a T1 / faction short-range brawler. You pretty much need to ensure you get the scram on, and if not equipped with an AB, then the web as well.

Overheated, a typical scram reaches to 10.8km.

When you arrive in the empty plex, usually you arrive about 3.8km or so from the beacon. So the question is about where the optimum place is to position yourself to get maximum opportunity and time to get the scram / web on? Some people suggest the beacon. Some the warp-in point.

To clarify this, I'm asking:

Q. Is the warp-in point for your opponent exactly the same as yours? Or it is randomised - so roughly any point that's about 3.8km from the beacon?

Q. If the warp-in point is exactly the same for you and your opponent, if you're sitting on the warp in point in your brawler, does your opponent land at 0m on you? Or is your opponent offset by a few km? If so, by how much?

Q. How much of an advantage do you get in scramming / webbing MWD equipped ships as they arrive, given you're in a prime spot and your opponent also has to deal with the room sync lag as he arrives?

Q. From experience, do scram / web brawler pilots prefer sitting at the button, or the warp-in point?

Q. Assuming you can get 'the grapple', is it better to fit a brawler for scram / web, or scram / AB?

More generally, how successful are scram / web brawlers in catching MWD kiters that warp in? Can you consistently catch them? Any experiences or methods that work? Is it best to position brawlers on the beacon? The WIP?

Any help or observations gratefully received......
David Devant
CTRL-Q
#2 - 2013-09-16 10:31:06 UTC  |  Edited by: David Devant
You need to be at the warp in beacon. Typically people will land at about 2-3k from you. If they're a kiter they will burn away from you.

What you need to do:

1) Overheat prop mod and scram.
2) Spam approach. You will start to approach the target before he is lockable.
3) Spam lock and try and keep that scram on when you get it.
4) Make sure you don't burn mids.
5) Scoop loot and harvest tears.

Factors to consider:

1) Opponent has links? If so more risky. Probably want AB/Web/Scram.
2) MWD will be more useful in the above scenario. But only if you're sure they want to kite.
3) There's always room for error and this is a fine margin procedure against a competent pilot.

Start cheap ;)
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#3 - 2013-09-16 14:20:05 UTC
Sleban wrote:
It seems to me that, depending on type of ship you have, the critical initial phase of attacking or defending a FW plex is down to whether you can get the scram / web on, or evade it.

I've a few fairly detailed questions about this which someone can answer.

Let's assume you are defending a novice plex with a T1 / faction short-range brawler. You pretty much need to ensure you get the scram on, and if not equipped with an AB, then the web as well.

Overheated, a typical scram reaches to 10.8km.

When you arrive in the empty plex, usually you arrive about 3.8km or so from the beacon. So the question is about where the optimum place is to position yourself to get maximum opportunity and time to get the scram / web on? Some people suggest the beacon. Some the warp-in point.

To clarify this, I'm asking:

Q. Is the warp-in point for your opponent exactly the same as yours? Or it is randomised - so roughly any point that's about 3.8km from the beacon?

Ships land within a 5km radius.

Q. If the warp-in point is exactly the same for you and your opponent, if you're sitting on the warp in point in your brawler, does your opponent land at 0m on you? Or is your opponent offset by a few km? If so, by how much?

Again, 5km

Q. How much of an advantage do you get in scramming / webbing MWD equipped ships as they arrive, given you're in a prime spot and your opponent also has to deal with the room sync lag as he arrives?

Depends, can actually work against you as you will sometimes start locking, that will go the entire way and then not actually lock on. Basically its safe to just assume that you are on equal footing when it comes to server shenanigans

Q. From experience, do scram / web brawler pilots prefer sitting at the button, or the warp-in point?

On the beacon

Q. Assuming you can get 'the grapple', is it better to fit a brawler for scram / web, or scram / AB?

Scram/web/ab

More generally, how successful are scram / web brawlers in catching MWD kiters that warp in? Can you consistently catch them? Any experiences or methods that work? Is it best to position brawlers on the beacon? The WIP?

If you aren't ****, and lock/start moving towards someone the moment they come in. Unless they have links you are highly likely to catch them. I've only ever once had a ship manage to get out of my lock range and he had links.

Any help or observations gratefully received......

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Christine Peeveepeeski
Low Sec Concepts
#4 - 2013-09-16 16:19:31 UTC
Garviel has hit the nail on the head here pretty much.

In my limited flight time right now I am currently testing a few fits that seem ridiculous on the face of it but seem to work nicely when entering plexes. Capable of pro brawling BUT can hit out to 25-30km to scare off kiters. The few tests I've done so far when I have purposefully taken on a kite ship set up in a plex have worked well :D

Hopefully if this works it'll change the face of eve as we know it!

Or not, probably not...
Xio Zheng
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2013-09-16 17:51:47 UTC
From my time in FW I learned early how to get out of brawling range quick because I almost always fly kiting frigs. This is what I do when I land, my mid is already overheated ready to go, the mwd will get one cycle before any scram can hit. As I land imidiatly start moving straight forward and hit your mwd, lock the brawler, hit td and point and highs. Even if scram and web hit, I'm coasting at 5400m/s at a minimum, so i will coast out of range of web/scram on any ship 3km/s or slower.

Make sure when trying to catch someone you go forward about 2km from beacon relative to the warp in. this way you will have more time to get the full web effect because they will have to fly past you in order for them to have the highest possible coasting speed. If they turn and try burning away in another direction other then what they came in as, you will catch them.

Best of luck to you.
Plato Forko
123 Fake Street
#6 - 2013-09-16 20:09:09 UTC
Problem with spamming for a lock is that you can't keep the tackle mods armed so there's a delay to get them active after acquiring lock. What I've found successful is to keep the tackle mods armed and wait for the target's radial velocity to hit double digits on their approach then you just need to click them on overview for the scram to land before they even have a chance to begin burning off.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-09-17 05:20:39 UTC
When brawling fit I will generally do the following.

It may or may not be good advice.

I normally move the few km back towards the beacon when entering a plex.

Scram is in F1 position, so can easily be activated. Press F1 then wait click enemy ship when you can when it appears.

You can change DScan range to be much shorter if you suspect someone is on the way in.

Overview should be set to be empty even no beacon or timer. Enemy ship should be only item that will appear.

Afterburner is activated with speed set to zero to maintain position.

Guns, tackle and any repper are already set to overheat.

Drones out.

Be wary of sitting on the warp in if you believe another strong brawler is on it's way in. Move to your preferred range.

A frigate should normally catch another frigate through a combination of scram and web and approaching quickly. Watch if they drift clear, with the web and you approaching there is still a chance to get the scram back on them if they are not quick enough.

If you run mediums in a cruiser be wary that you may not have the lock speed to catch a kiting frigate that enters.
Morgan Torry
Arma Purgatorium
#8 - 2013-09-17 07:39:19 UTC
Plato Forko wrote:
Problem with spamming for a lock is that you can't keep the tackle mods armed so there's a delay to get them active after acquiring lock. What I've found successful is to keep the tackle mods armed and wait for the target's radial velocity to hit double digits on their approach then you just need to click them on overview for the scram to land before they even have a chance to begin burning off.


My method:
1. Double-click until "Approaching (ship name)" appears.
2. Spam your lock hotkey, whatever it may be
3. Once the sound of the lock revolving goes off, hit all your points to where they blink gray/normal (that means they'll go the minute you lock)
4. Enjoy your caught fish

Arma Purgatorium - What is Podded May Never Die
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#9 - 2013-09-17 10:07:49 UTC
Ohh yea its worth noting that you can start approaching before you can lock.

So do that, then try to get lock.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#10 - 2013-09-18 00:09:53 UTC
scram + web + ab mandatory or you are ******. This is why the punisher, and any 2 mid slot armor tanker, is pretty much ass stink

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Sleban
Pole Shift Incorporated
#11 - 2013-09-18 13:13:06 UTC
Some great responses here - thanks for your help and in taking the time to explain it all.
Shadow Adanza
Mercantile Federation
#12 - 2013-09-19 02:43:13 UTC
Catch them on warp in, scram, web, gg.

Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?
Christine Peeveepeeski
Low Sec Concepts
#13 - 2013-09-19 10:45:23 UTC
Shadow Adanza wrote:
Catch them on warp in, scram, web, gg.


Unless you are very unlucky and you've found yourself a duel prop kiter. I have a VERY nasty dual prop rocket hookbill and a similar Hawk that relies on people thinking that it's one or the other....

Javelin rockets FTW.

In fact I may go fit some more up, I think I ran out of the little pests.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#14 - 2013-09-19 11:50:06 UTC
Christine Peeveepeeski wrote:
Shadow Adanza wrote:
Catch them on warp in, scram, web, gg.


Unless you are very unlucky and you've found yourself a duel prop kiter. I have a VERY nasty dual prop rocket hookbill and a similar Hawk that relies on people thinking that it's one or the other....

Javelin rockets FTW.

In fact I may go fit some more up, I think I ran out of the little pests.


Quite sure a dual prop Hawk is shitfit

And a rocket hookbill isn't really a kiter.. Scram kiting counts as brawling damn it!


I refuse to be labled a kitescrub =<

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2013-09-19 13:42:02 UTC
Deacon Abox wrote:
scram + web + ab mandatory or you are ******. This is why the punisher, and any 2 mid slot armor tanker, is pretty much ass stink

Hence I go off-topic: what are they for if even FW plexes can't give'em a role?..

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Shadow Adanza
Mercantile Federation
#16 - 2013-09-19 14:07:24 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Deacon Abox wrote:
scram + web + ab mandatory or you are ******. This is why the punisher, and any 2 mid slot armor tanker, is pretty much ass stink

Hence I go off-topic: what are they for if even FW plexes can't give'em a role?..

They make decent cyno ships.

Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#17 - 2013-09-19 14:17:38 UTC
Shadow Adanza wrote:
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Deacon Abox wrote:
scram + web + ab mandatory or you are ******. This is why the punisher, and any 2 mid slot armor tanker, is pretty much ass stink

Hence I go off-topic: what are they for if even FW plexes can't give'em a role?..

They make decent cyno ships.

Or noob level 1 mission ships.Straight

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Beardon
CRIME CRIME
#18 - 2013-09-23 20:10:30 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Deacon Abox wrote:
scram + web + ab mandatory or you are ******. This is why the punisher, and any 2 mid slot armor tanker, is pretty much ass stink

Hence I go off-topic: what are they for if even FW plexes can't give'em a role?..


Punishers in specific are really good in a gang situation. When soloing, your ship of choice has to be able to fulfill are the roles required, and only having two mid slots makes that difficult. When in a gang, you have friends that can fulfill the webbing role (or whatever), and its resist bonus makes it a great tackle ship. Unlike things like Kestrels, Rifters or Tormentors, the punisher has some pretty scary staying power. With a 400mm plate I can get almost 10k ehp, with a tiny tiny sig. It's great.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#19 - 2013-09-23 20:16:43 UTC
Beardon wrote:
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Deacon Abox wrote:
scram + web + ab mandatory or you are ******. This is why the punisher, and any 2 mid slot armor tanker, is pretty much ass stink

Hence I go off-topic: what are they for if even FW plexes can't give'em a role?..


Punishers in specific are really good in a gang situation. When soloing, your ship of choice has to be able to fulfill are the roles required, and only having two mid slots makes that difficult. When in a gang, you have friends that can fulfill the webbing role (or whatever), and its resist bonus makes it a great tackle ship. Unlike things like Kestrels, Rifters or Tormentors, the punisher has some pretty scary staying power. With a 400mm plate I can get almost 10k ehp, with a tiny tiny sig. It's great.


There is nothing the punisher does in a gang other ships don't do much better.

Sure it can have slightly more buffer than other frigates, that just doesn't really amount to much.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#20 - 2013-09-23 21:41:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
There is nothing the punisher does in a gang other ships don't do much better.

Sure it can have slightly more buffer than other frigates, that just doesn't really amount to much.


It's far from slight depending on the other frigate you're talking about, and has a combination of projection and DPS that you would expect from an Amarr laserboat (ie really, really good).