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Why does Covert-ops Cloaking device deactivate immediately on disconnect?

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Giorgos Rbs
Lead Head Inc
#1 - 2013-09-18 17:25:39 UTC
Tanking modules stay active for some time after you get disconnected, it makes sense and shows it is doable.

So why can't the covert-ops cloak have a similar behavior to tank on disconnect? Somehow, it makes perfect sense to me for this to be the "way it should be" unless there is a good reason for it not being so.

My proposal: Make covert ops cloaking device module stay active on disconnect in a similar way as tank does

Discuss :)

-Gio
nerdman234
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#2 - 2013-09-18 19:05:44 UTC
From what I understand, after disconnecting, all modules will finish the cycle they're currently on. Cloaking devices do not have cycle times, so therefore instantly cut off. (Correct me if I'm wrong).

This could be easily fixed by adding a couple second cycle time, but I feel that risk is just part of being a cloaked ship. So I disagree with your proposal.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#3 - 2013-09-18 19:23:30 UTC
nerdman234 wrote:
From what I understand, after disconnecting, all modules will finish the cycle they're currently on. Cloaking devices do not have cycle times, so therefore instantly cut off. (Correct me if I'm wrong).

This could be easily fixed by adding a couple second cycle time, but I feel that risk is just part of being a cloaked ship. So I disagree with your proposal.

This indicates you approve of real life connectivity issues having an impact on the game.

Moreover, since cloaking is more likely to be in use when in dangerous conditions without additional support, you are less likely to have friends around who can help cover for you.

It doesn't seem good design.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Zakeus Djinn
Who Called In The Fleet
#4 - 2013-09-18 19:26:57 UTC
If risk is just part of being a cloaked ship, then that risk should be completely internal to the game, not determined by arbitrary external factors like how good of an internet connection you can afford.

+1

How about a 30 second or 1 minute timer after you disconnect before you decloak? Presumably such a timer would also extend the time until your ship disappears from space.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#5 - 2013-09-18 19:37:10 UTC
But then our current work around solution to AFK cloaking, that being to launch a denial of service attack in your general direction, would no longer be as effective. Smile

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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#6 - 2013-09-18 19:40:10 UTC
Zakeus Djinn wrote:
If risk is just part of being a cloaked ship, then that risk should be completely internal to the game, not determined by arbitrary external factors like how good of an internet connection you can afford.

+1

How about a 30 second or 1 minute timer after you disconnect before you decloak? Presumably such a timer would also extend the time until your ship disappears from space.

Unless the player screwed up, I don't feel the cloak should fail at all.

Many cloaked players are doing scouting, or observation post duty, in dangerous areas. They are cloaked as their defense.
Someone watching a gate or station long term should not suddenly become an easy target of opportunity just because a router somewhere got flaky from too many porn downloads.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Jayne Fillon
#7 - 2013-09-19 00:55:17 UTC
Covert ops cloaks allow you to warp cloaked, so why not ewarp, and THEN deactivate the module? Would make sense to me. Leave them in space uncloaked if they have a timer, but the initial ewarp should be done cloaked. This would also serve to stop interfering with a bomb run setup, if someone disconnects - this would have a huge impact in large fleet fights, especially those with TiDi.

+1

Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI.
Giorgos Rbs
Lead Head Inc
#8 - 2013-09-19 06:44:16 UTC
Jayne Fillon wrote:
Covert ops cloaks allow you to warp cloaked, so why not ewarp, and THEN deactivate the module? Would make sense to me. Leave them in space uncloaked if they have a timer, but the initial ewarp should be done cloaked. This would also serve to stop interfering with a bomb run setup, if someone disconnects - this would have a huge impact in large fleet fights, especially those with TiDi.

+1


Exactly my point. If you didn't get disconnected you could easily warp off to wherever and logoff safely or even stay cloaked forever near a POS or a gate or whatever you are observing - bookmarking etc. Instead on disconnect, the cloak breaks and your position is revealed and it takes some seconds for your ship to warp out making you vulnerable ONLY because you disconnected.

In my case, yesterday i got DC in a Helios while bookmarking a PVE wormhole spot and those damn Argos sentry guns instapopped it (Argos must be bugged vs cloaks cause they instalock everything the moment it decloaks but that's another story). I logged on 30 seconds later in a capsule Cry And whenever i am scouting around near a wormhole or a POS with active people in it, i'm always kind of worried i might get DC, and it has happened a few times tbh but i was lucky till yesterday

In the covert ops cloak case (that allows you to warp off safely anyway) disconnect shouldn't be an enemy. Just make it stay active like the tanking modules do and its "fixed" :)
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#9 - 2013-09-19 11:36:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
Jayne Fillon wrote:
Covert ops cloaks allow you to warp cloaked, so why not ewarp, and THEN deactivate the module? Would make sense to me. Leave them in space uncloaked if they have a timer, but the initial ewarp should be done cloaked. This would also serve to stop interfering with a bomb run setup, if someone disconnects - this would have a huge impact in large fleet fights, especially those with TiDi.

+1


This. Simple extension to the already existing functionality because everyone gets hit with a disconnect once in a while and it's never when you're not doing something dangerous!

+1 and a few others spattered around the non-Trolls.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Velicitia
XS Tech
#10 - 2013-09-19 12:34:34 UTC
Jayne Fillon wrote:
Covert ops cloaks allow you to warp cloaked, so why not ewarp, and THEN deactivate the module?



Because (right now) there is no module cycle timer, so it deactivates IMMEDIATELY.

now, a cycle timer could be added which would:

1. let you stay cloaked for [timer_length] - X seconds after a DC, potentially letting you warp off unnoticed
2. let you stay cloaked for [timer_length] when you accidentally turn it off (although reactivation delay still applies)
3. let you stay cloaked during other things that normally break cloak (excepting, ofc being within 2km of something)


DOWNSIDES:

1. any desyncs mean that you no longer know when the cloak will deactivate
2. your SB gang needs to make sure they're coordinated to the second (see 1)
3. your cloaky talking bastard can no longer get that guy on gate, because of decloak timer (excepting getting within 2km)
4. other stuff that needs "RIGHT NOW" decloaking.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#11 - 2013-09-19 12:38:34 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Jayne Fillon wrote:
Covert ops cloaks allow you to warp cloaked, so why not ewarp, and THEN deactivate the module?



Because (right now) there is no module cycle timer, so it deactivates IMMEDIATELY.

now, a cycle timer could be added which would:

1. let you stay cloaked for [timer_length] - X seconds after a DC, potentially letting you warp off unnoticed
2. let you stay cloaked for [timer_length] when you accidentally turn it off (although reactivation delay still applies)
3. let you stay cloaked during other things that normally break cloak (excepting, ofc being within 2km of something)


DOWNSIDES:

1. any desyncs mean that you no longer know when the cloak will deactivate
2. your SB gang needs to make sure they're coordinated to the second (see 1)
3. your cloaky talking bastard can no longer get that guy on gate, because of decloak timer (excepting getting within 2km)
4. other stuff that needs "RIGHT NOW" decloaking.


No timer needed:

If cloak active when packet loss occurs then e-warp with module states at last command, drop from warp and turn off all modules and system cloak ship.

Simple and no timer required.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2013-09-19 12:50:19 UTC
Maybe it's just a technical issue were the server cannot remove your ship from space as long as there are still active modules... Straight

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#13 - 2013-09-19 12:53:43 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Jayne Fillon wrote:
Covert ops cloaks allow you to warp cloaked, so why not ewarp, and THEN deactivate the module?



Because (right now) there is no module cycle timer, so it deactivates IMMEDIATELY.

now, a cycle timer could be added which would:

1. let you stay cloaked for [timer_length] - X seconds after a DC, potentially letting you warp off unnoticed
2. let you stay cloaked for [timer_length] when you accidentally turn it off (although reactivation delay still applies)
3. let you stay cloaked during other things that normally break cloak (excepting, ofc being within 2km of something)


DOWNSIDES:

1. any desyncs mean that you no longer know when the cloak will deactivate
2. your SB gang needs to make sure they're coordinated to the second (see 1)
3. your cloaky talking bastard can no longer get that guy on gate, because of decloak timer (excepting getting within 2km)
4. other stuff that needs "RIGHT NOW" decloaking.


No timer needed:

If cloak active when packet loss occurs then e-warp with module states at last command, drop from warp and turn off all modules and system cloak ship.

Simple and no timer required.



Thing is, that's not how the game code works -- when you log off/DC, your modules will stay active until their current cycle timer ends. Since there is no timer on cloak, it gets cut immediately. So, with the normal assumption of this being some legacy "here be dragons" code, the only fix (for now) is to make cloaks have a timer.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#14 - 2013-09-19 12:53:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
Debora Tsung wrote:
Maybe it's just a technical issue were the server cannot remove your ship from space as long as there are still active modules... Straight


I've disconnected before and got back online within two minutes and my shield hardeners, boosters and stuff have been all online when I logged back on so it's not that they offline straight away so I'm not seeing that as a major drawback. I know it was within two minutes as I got an auto-invite along the lines of "Would like you to join their fleet" and that only happens within two minutes of dropping no matter whether you were the FC or not you get an auto-rejoin.

As for active modules...it warps you Xkms from the nearest celestial and then applies a cloak that is undetectable by anyone. It could do this in warp:

(1) Initiate e-warp
(2) Ship enters warp to within Xkms of nearest celestial
(3) Drop cloak and deactivate all modules
(4) 1 tick later: cloak applied

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#15 - 2013-09-19 13:06:56 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Zakeus Djinn wrote:
If risk is just part of being a cloaked ship, then that risk should be completely internal to the game, not determined by arbitrary external factors like how good of an internet connection you can afford.

+1

How about a 30 second or 1 minute timer after you disconnect before you decloak? Presumably such a timer would also extend the time until your ship disappears from space.

Unless the player screwed up, I don't feel the cloak should fail at all.

Many cloaked players are doing scouting, or observation post duty, in dangerous areas. They are cloaked as their defense.
Someone watching a gate or station long term should not suddenly become an easy target of opportunity just because a router somewhere got flaky from too many **** downloads.
Why should a cloak stay on until your ship is safely logged off while my defensive modules would deactivate if i disconnected? My defensive modules are my defense. In fact, on most ships me shooting back is also my defense, so I should start firing back automatically when engaged. Some ships also speed tank, so they should automatically move for the best transversal.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#16 - 2013-09-19 13:19:54 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Zakeus Djinn wrote:
If risk is just part of being a cloaked ship, then that risk should be completely internal to the game, not determined by arbitrary external factors like how good of an internet connection you can afford.

+1

How about a 30 second or 1 minute timer after you disconnect before you decloak? Presumably such a timer would also extend the time until your ship disappears from space.

Unless the player screwed up, I don't feel the cloak should fail at all.

Many cloaked players are doing scouting, or observation post duty, in dangerous areas. They are cloaked as their defense.
Someone watching a gate or station long term should not suddenly become an easy target of opportunity just because a router somewhere got flaky from too many **** downloads.
Why should a cloak stay on until your ship is safely logged off while my defensive modules would deactivate if i disconnected? My defensive modules are my defense. In fact, on most ships me shooting back is also my defense, so I should start firing back automatically when engaged. Some ships also speed tank, so they should automatically move for the best transversal.


I think what he's saying is that the modules should maintain the same state on disconnect until e-warp is initiated the same as all other modules do. If you'd MWD is active it stays active, hardeners, boosters, guns I imagine too as I know missiles still fire until e-warp is initiated. If you're scrammed you're shafted but hey...

Level playing field...a cloak is a defense as they are paper thin tanks just as hardeners\boosters etc are for other types of ships. Oh and engaging is an offensive action not defensive.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#17 - 2013-09-19 13:27:02 UTC
Yep, we need to buff logoffski, it's been neglected for so long

.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#18 - 2013-09-19 13:36:49 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
I think what he's saying is that the modules should maintain the same state on disconnect until e-warp is initiated the same as all other modules do. If you'd MWD is active it stays active, hardeners, boosters, guns I imagine too as I know missiles still fire until e-warp is initiated. If you're scrammed you're shafted but hey...

Level playing field...a cloak is a defense as they are paper thin tanks just as hardeners\boosters etc are for other types of ships. Oh and engaging is an offensive action not defensive.
I suppose, but it's favoring cloaking, since a cloak is 100% defense. A speed tanking ship has no chance. A smaller ship with an MWD active also has no chance. Even a battleship is likely to be too far chewed before you get back in. But a cloaked ship will be completely safe, nobody would even know it had been there.
You've also got the safe logoff timer, where you have to wait, and cancel if anything shows up. A cloaked ship you could just pull the plug, knowing it's fine, since it won't decloak.

Just to me seems like more buffs for an already pretty powerful class.

Oh, and when people talk about cloaks, they always seem to jump straight to bombers, hence you calling it paper thin. T3 ships can also covops cloak, and can very much hold their own.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

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Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#19 - 2013-09-19 13:44:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
Roime wrote:
Yep, we need to buff logoffski, it's been neglected for so long




There are actually a couple people with connectionproblems.

Issue is just running on your one account (let's say a cloaky scout) when you suddenly lose two other clients, seeing the ships decloaking, getting tackled and destroyed all before you can log back into those accounts is really annoying, normally I just end up spamming PLAY and it tells me 'not accepting connections'.

I count losing internet connection and thus ALL clients as my issue, single clients disconnecting randomly while the others are working fine is a pita though. And a majority of the fights I got, I only got cause one client is dc'ing while I try keep respective ship alive with another (same machine)

So +1 for that from me.


Tanik Fera wrote:
Along with your idea they should of course make it so my ship disappears if I'm pointed and alt-f4, I mean when my ****** Internet drops!

@Zakeus
So what do you think of games having "minimum system requirements?" Total bullshit right, you shouldn't ever have to update your hardware/software to play anything.

TLDR-YOUR Internet connection is YOUR problem.


The thing was, if you randomly dc, it doesn't unnecessarily decloak your ship right away. That's all. No one implied a 'close client-safe up'-thing.

It's also great how you think about internet connections, but ever thought that not everyone is a nerherder with a cable? Some people are happy about a 6k connection, some are even restricted to satelite or other desperate means.

Surveillance and cloaking are core elements of null/wh-warfare, yet a good part of the people can't enjoy it like others cause they just risk a ship every now and then cause their connection is ******.

That doesn't even include the reaction I had all those times when I entered warp, got a socket closed, and logged back in to jita - all while watching the action on an alt <.<
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#20 - 2013-09-19 13:55:53 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
I think what he's saying is that the modules should maintain the same state on disconnect until e-warp is initiated the same as all other modules do. If you'd MWD is active it stays active, hardeners, boosters, guns I imagine too as I know missiles still fire until e-warp is initiated. If you're scrammed you're shafted but hey...

Level playing field...a cloak is a defense as they are paper thin tanks just as hardeners\boosters etc are for other types of ships. Oh and engaging is an offensive action not defensive.
I suppose, but it's favoring cloaking, since a cloak is 100% defense. A speed tanking ship has no chance. A smaller ship with an MWD active also has no chance. Even a battleship is likely to be too far chewed before you get back in. But a cloaked ship will be completely safe, nobody would even know it had been there.
You've also got the safe logoff timer, where you have to wait, and cancel if anything shows up. A cloaked ship you could just pull the plug, knowing it's fine, since it won't decloak.

Just to me seems like more buffs for an already pretty powerful class.

Oh, and when people talk about cloaks, they always seem to jump straight to bombers, hence you calling it paper thin. T3 ships can also covops cloak, and can very much hold their own.


Actually I was thinking Cheetah and Prowler...and powerful for being hidden but not much else...not much tank, not much DPS not great base speed...now T3 coul dbe a different matter but Cloaked = Can't do anything to anyone.

Safe Logoff timer is for all and is for a controlled log-off. Who would rip out their network cable just to save the 30 seconds? Get real mate, no Cov-Ops pilot is going to do that.

If the MWD'ing ship has no chance cos it was disconnected then how does it have a better chance still connected? You'd warp off...just like an e-warp does. You e-warp within a minute or so or a disconnect...

So non-cloaked (see tanky dps ships) with hardeners and boosters and everything else remain active until and while in e-warp while the Cov-Ops\Cloaked ship gets decloaked immediately and waits to e-warp...yeah that's fair right?

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
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