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destroyers - gankers and high sec

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Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#261 - 2013-09-18 22:47:59 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
You seem to be conflicted. Either CCP can decide that something is no longer valid, such as high sec ganking, and they can remove it, or they cannot. Which is it?

Mind boggling, isn't it? Blink The closest I have for an explanation is: CCP doesn't yet know how to "fix" it without breaking other things... that's why real changes take so long. Highsec capitals and CONCORD tanking where undesirables, they where removed... but, in example, jet can mining wasn't removed, it was made obsolete by changing the mining barges.

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)

Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#262 - 2013-09-18 22:49:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Plastic Psycho
Shalua Rui wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
You forgot that the max yield AFK isk printer should be able to do its job without ever undocking.

...but you already can print money without ever leaving the stations, it's called "station trading". Roll

Seriously guys: Evil miner carebears ruining my game boo hu? Doesn't that get old at some point? No wonder nothing ever changes in this game...

Station trading is frankly too much like work for some (many) folks. It requires thinking, and attention to detail. Even I, who *could* do station trading if ISK were my primary goal, find it immensely tedious - I do enough thinking and attention-to-detail at work, thank you!


On the other hand, our chosen (or at least one of our chosen) play-styles is under continuous attack by a batch of whingers who can't even be bothered to actually, you know, engage in the game. Whine, kvetch, snivel, all teh time. Well, that's precisely what pushed me to gank in the first place... the self-entitled whinging of a bunch of people who fail to understand the core concepts, but still wnat to be treated as special snowflakes.

The miners, I mean. Gankers are special snowflakes who understand the game and are willing to actually, you know - go out and get involved.

Enough. No more. We nee a new label - Carebears are fine, mostly. I don't have a problem with them - most understand the game just fine, and make reasonable accomodations to deal with those aspects they don't care for - like exploding. But these whining, whinging, snivelling miners... These... pantywastes have got to go. Or have got to learn that they are not so important as they think they are.

CCP, debuff Barges, or buff Ganking. Either will do for me. But we need more Yaaar! in this game, lest it become WoW in Spaaaaace!
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#263 - 2013-09-18 22:50:44 UTC
The Git wrote:

Just admit it. Ganking miners is easy, mindless game play. Its barely more involved than mining while working on a spreadsheet.


Of course it's easy, mindless gameplay. It is not, however, completely AFK/tabbed-out 'gameplay' while you do other things.

How does the AFK miner affect my gameplay? He gives me something to shoot at. No more, and no less. The same as the unfitted farmer spinning FW plexes, the Venture that's creeping around lowsec, the Covops that's hacking in my home system, the anti-pirate hero that catches me on a gate somewhere, and the other PvPers I run into when I am out and about. They all offer various levels of challenge, from absolutely none to realizing my mistake in the first five seconds.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#264 - 2013-09-18 22:57:10 UTC
The Git wrote:
I wish those that enjoy and defend ganking miners would just man up and admit they do it because it's an easy game play style. No mysteries, very little tactics or strategy, and the end result is at least half known.

And find a different argument than the "they aren't playing the game!!!11", "they're afk and making money.....". Big effing deal. What possible effect does that have on your game play. Here's a clue, none.

Alliances that rent space are making money without being in the game. Moon production makes money without being in the game....blah, blah, blah...it is so tiresome.

Just admit it. Ganking miners is easy, mindless game play. Its barely more involved than mining while working on a spreadsheet.


As someone who leads ganking fleets accross highsec, I can assure you that it is not mindless & a lot of work goes in to chaining successful ganks. The only thing miners see is the end result.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#265 - 2013-09-18 22:57:38 UTC
See Plastic, and that why you don't get any attention/help from CCP... cause gankers are THE heroes. Blink

I've (again) head enough with that fruitless discussion...

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#266 - 2013-09-18 22:59:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Domanique Altares
Shalua Rui wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
You seem to be conflicted. Either CCP can decide that something is no longer valid, such as high sec ganking, and they can remove it, or they cannot. Which is it?

Mind boggling, isn't it? Blink The closest I have for an explanation is: CCP doesn't yet know how to "fix" it without breaking other things... that's why real changes take so long.


What's mind boggling is your ability to contradict yourself. Either CCP wants high sec ganking, or they do not. There is no gray area that needs fixing. The safety system is already in place. They could, very literally, turn high sec ganking off tomorrow by engaging all safeties in high sec. Problem solved. There's nothing mechanically that would be broken by it.

Quote:
Highsec capitals and CONCORD tanking where undesirables, they where removed... but, in example, jet can mining wasn't removed, it was made obsolete by changing the mining barges.


And yet people still jetcan regularly. I see Retrievers stacking them five and six deep and letting them sit until the absolute last minute to bring in that hauler alt.

You have yet to explain why behaviors cannot be removed 'because of the sandbox,' yet by your own admission CCP has done this in the past, disregarding the 'sandbox' entirely.
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#267 - 2013-09-18 23:04:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Shalua Rui
Domanique Altares wrote:
What's mind boggling is your ability to contradict yourself. Either CCP wants high sec ganking, or they do not. There is no gray area that needs fixing. The safety system is already in place. They could, very literally, turn high sec ganking off tomorrow by engaging all safeties in high sec. Problem solved. There's nothing mechanically that would be broken by it.

I'm not contradicting myself, CCP is... they change some things because of the sandbox, and they DON'T change some things out of the same reason. You think they have to have a clear opinion on sucide ganking? Well, they don't have one... except that it should not be profitable, that was already stated.

...but as I said, fruitless discussion, personally I hope they stop nerfing/buffing either side and move on to more important stuff ...and NO, I do not necessarily mean WiS. Blink

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)

Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#268 - 2013-09-18 23:07:06 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
The Git wrote:
I wish those that enjoy and defend ganking miners would just man up and admit they do it because it's an easy game play style. No mysteries, very little tactics or strategy, and the end result is at least half known.

And find a different argument than the "they aren't playing the game!!!11", "they're afk and making money.....". Big effing deal. What possible effect does that have on your game play. Here's a clue, none.

Alliances that rent space are making money without being in the game. Moon production makes money without being in the game....blah, blah, blah...it is so tiresome.

Just admit it. Ganking miners is easy, mindless game play. Its barely more involved than mining while working on a spreadsheet.


As someone who leads ganking fleets accross highsec, I can assure you that it is not mindless & a lot of work goes in to chaining successful ganks. The only thing miners see is the end result.

Damn skippy.

Setting up a fleet, moving into position (often through hostile space), scouting, setting up the traps, more scouting... Been there, done that. And sometimes, you still come up mostly empty.

Ganking isn't just "See target, Lock target, F1, Concordokken!" There's intelligence to be gathered, plans to be made, targets to be identified. People think it's easy because all they see is the "F1,Concordokken" end of it. They don't see the effort that comes before - It's invisible to them (as it should be, if I've done my job right).

And sure, Barges are easier than some targets. But they're not effort-free.
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#269 - 2013-09-18 23:12:16 UTC
Shalua Rui wrote:
See Plastic, and that why you don't get any attention/help from CCP... cause gankers are THE heroes. Blink

:: preens ::

Why, thank you. What a nice thing to say! Lol
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#270 - 2013-09-18 23:13:22 UTC
Plastic Psycho wrote:
Why, thank you. What a nice thing to say! Lol

What can I say? I'm a nice person! Big smile

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)

The Git
Mercantile and Stuff
#271 - 2013-09-18 23:31:29 UTC
Plastic Psycho wrote:
[a batch of whingers ......Whine, kvetch, snivel, all teh time........ the self-entitled whinging........... to be treated as special snowflakes.

....... these whining, whinging, snivelling miners... ........... pantywastes have got to go. ...



I like how you reverse the cause/effect for justification.

If you aren't ganking them....what are they complaining about again?
The Git
Mercantile and Stuff
#272 - 2013-09-18 23:34:01 UTC
Plastic Psycho wrote:
There's intelligence to be gathered, plans to be made, targets to be identified.


That's hilarious.
Hammer Crendraven
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#273 - 2013-09-18 23:46:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Hammer Crendraven
Shalua Rui wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
What's mind boggling is your ability to contradict yourself. Either CCP wants high sec ganking, or they do not. There is no gray area that needs fixing. The safety system is already in place. They could, very literally, turn high sec ganking off tomorrow by engaging all safeties in high sec. Problem solved. There's nothing mechanically that would be broken by it.

I'm not contradicting myself, CCP is... they change some things because of the sandbox, and they DON'T change some things out of the same reason. You think they have to have a clear opinion on sucide ganking? Well, they don't have one... except that it should not be profitable, that was already stated.

...but as I said, fruitless discussion, personally I hope they stop nerfing/buffing either side and move on to more important stuff ...and NO, I do not necessarily mean WiS. Blink



Well you are mostly correct. And I am more or less on your side. But what CCP really said back when mining barges were being buffed and retribution was rolling out was that:

Mining was supported by CCP as a game function.

Ganking was not it was a player derived, player invented gameplay.

Ganking was not meant to be supported as a profitable venture by CCP.

The fact that it was, was interesting to CCP and is always subject to change.

What you are saying is that CCP said ganking was not intended to be profitable and that is overstepping what they really said.

It is a fine distinction but it is still a distinction.

CCP also said they do want more player interaction in highsec.

This is their balance. Some like it some do not. And it could change more in the future.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#274 - 2013-09-18 23:53:05 UTC
The Git wrote:
Plastic Psycho wrote:
There's intelligence to be gathered, plans to be made, targets to be identified.


That's hilarious.


You think it's easy because all you see is the end result.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#275 - 2013-09-19 00:10:08 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
The Git wrote:
I wish those that enjoy and defend ganking miners would just man up and admit they do it because it's an easy game play style. No mysteries, very little tactics or strategy, and the end result is at least half known.

And find a different argument than the "they aren't playing the game!!!11", "they're afk and making money.....". Big effing deal. What possible effect does that have on your game play. Here's a clue, none.

Alliances that rent space are making money without being in the game. Moon production makes money without being in the game....blah, blah, blah...it is so tiresome.

Just admit it. Ganking miners is easy, mindless game play. Its barely more involved than mining while working on a spreadsheet.


As someone who leads ganking fleets accross highsec, I can assure you that it is not mindless & a lot of work goes in to chaining successful ganks. The only thing miners see is the end result.

But but but fleet warp f1!

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38

Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#276 - 2013-09-19 00:14:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Georgina Parmala
Shalua Rui wrote:
but, in example, jet can mining wasn't removed, it was made obsolete safe by changing the mining barges. aggression mechanics

Fixed your post

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38

M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#277 - 2013-09-19 01:12:32 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
Belana Mawr wrote:
Mizhir wrote:
You can make the gank cost more if you use a Skiff (I think thats the tanky barge).



Then they team up and 2 destroyers (6mills worth) will take out your skiff

and still have time to pop your pod,


You think two catalysts can pop a Skiff Lol

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Akiyo Mayaki
Perkone
Caldari State
#278 - 2013-09-19 01:36:46 UTC
You only die to ganks when you're AFK. Why should you win against people who aren't AFK?

No

Crimson Gauntlet
Six Gun Sound
#279 - 2013-09-19 01:44:21 UTC
Akiyo Mayaki wrote:
You only die to ganks when you're AFK. Why should you win against people who aren't AFK?


Because teh feelings get hurt when they die.

More seriously, I have never gotten a straight, satisfactory answer to this question. There is none. They honestly think they should be immune.
Number of times my posts have come in after the dev/mod locked the thread:  1
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#280 - 2013-09-19 02:00:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Plastic Psycho
The Git wrote:
Plastic Psycho wrote:
[a batch of whingers ......Whine, kvetch, snivel, all teh time........ the self-entitled whinging........... to be treated as special snowflakes.

....... these whining, whinging, snivelling miners... ........... pantywastes have got to go. ...



I like how you reverse the cause/effect for justification.

If you aren't ganking them....what are they complaining about again?

Turn-about *is* fair play. 18 nerfs and a Barge buff... I'd say they've had their way, and then some. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander; it's time for ours.

The Git wrote:
Plastic Psycho wrote:
There's intelligence to be gathered, plans to be made, targets to be identified.


That's hilarious.
Spoken like someone who has no clue. Come, join us, and see how the other half lives. You'll find it isn't nearly as simple as you think.

M1k3y Koontz wrote:

You think two catalysts can pop a Skiff Lol

Mis-information is funny. Clearly, they've never tried ganking a Skiff.