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Balancing hi-sec piracy and making it more realistic.

First post First post
Author
Gaidin Hollow
State War Academy
Caldari State
#101 - 2013-09-17 20:22:20 UTC
Luna Void wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:

Congratulations, you just described every law-enforcement agency ever. So much for EVE being unrealistic.


Sigh* kids want only explosions and violence with high epeen nowadays...

So, an internet game gives you the chance to gain in game currency by pissing others and you yell "hell yeah!!", EVE is supposed to be in hands of mature players working on groups to make an empire out of nothing, not for kids making cash by suicidally killing others.

If you promote suicidal ganking, you promote anarchy. yay for CONCORD shooting at everyone just coz they are in a miner ship (which of course means they are rich players who have infinite replaceable ships) and someone else can loot it. Hope that feature comes soon enough. coff*

If CCP promotes player income by piracy instead of industry, EVE online won't last another decade due to newbies feeling the game too hostile in their trial period and thus not subrcribing, not to mention the ragers who want to build instead of to shoot; player base lockdown, and eventually player migration to another MMO where no one can touch the things you achieve.

I feel sorry for those who found a game where they can be the bad guys and do it without giving a damn about other people when there are so many other ways to make the same profit.



You are making too much sense. CCP aren't concern about that, they aren't concern about those same gankers making 10 or more temp alts on free accounts and causing hell for corps either. It is a sad state of affairs and from what I have read it will only get worse.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#102 - 2013-09-17 21:00:03 UTC
I see no one ever told Luna Void about the concept of a destruction based economy or inflation of assets in said economy.

Basically, losses are what keeps the wheel turning, Luna. If people don't lose ships, they don't buy them either. So everyone has to be vulnerable to losing ships. Miners included, no one gets to be immune to other players. Suicide gankers are doing a great service to the economy when they do what they do, even if it doesn't help the miner being ganked. So, next time you see one, thank them for doing their part to help stop inflation.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#103 - 2013-09-17 21:24:32 UTC
Oh the tears...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#104 - 2013-09-17 21:30:13 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I see no one ever told Luna Void about the concept of a destruction based economy or inflation of assets in said economy.

Basically, losses are what keeps the wheel turning, Luna. If people don't lose ships, they don't buy them either. So everyone has to be vulnerable to losing ships. Miners included, no one gets to be immune to other players. Suicide gankers are doing a great service to the economy when they do what they do, even if it doesn't help the miner being ganked. So, next time you see one, thank them for doing their part to help stop inflation.


Wouldn't that mean gankers would have to thank their victims, too? After all, without some poor sods throwing themselves at those vile asteroids, nothing would get build to get blown up.

Since an economy without miners would be as pointless as an economy without gankers, give miners your sincere thanks for protecting the economy of Eve every time you blow one up. It's only fair.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#105 - 2013-09-17 23:11:03 UTC
Owen Levanth wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I see no one ever told Luna Void about the concept of a destruction based economy or inflation of assets in said economy.

Basically, losses are what keeps the wheel turning, Luna. If people don't lose ships, they don't buy them either. So everyone has to be vulnerable to losing ships. Miners included, no one gets to be immune to other players. Suicide gankers are doing a great service to the economy when they do what they do, even if it doesn't help the miner being ganked. So, next time you see one, thank them for doing their part to help stop inflation.


Wouldn't that mean gankers would have to thank their victims, too? After all, without some poor sods throwing themselves at those vile asteroids, nothing would get build to get blown up.

Since an economy without miners would be as pointless as an economy without gankers, give miners your sincere thanks for protecting the economy of Eve every time you blow one up. It's only fair.


Ah, but you see, there is a fundamental difference. This is a capitalist economy. Voids in the market will always be filled just by the nature of competition for resources.

Someone will always be around to take the high road of production. But destruction? That is a function few will fill, for the left hand path is a swift way to be ostracized by your fellow players.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#106 - 2013-09-17 23:29:22 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:
making piracy more realistic, from a consequences point of view ...

how do you hang a miscreant when yardarms are no longer a feature of ship design ?
also imprisonment would totally suck as a gameplay aspect
(it's what they used to do to pirates ... hanging or jail)

current system may be flawed, but it works and is playable

Well it works until you undock with nothing worthwhile to gank and you get ganked just for lols. The game needs to be balanced to the point that you CAN gank a ship but the penalties are such that if you are ganking one there needs to be a reason to do so.

Lulz is not a good enough reason. Its annoying at the very least and a huge loss when its an empty freighter or an empty jump freighter.

I think when ships are being popped empty for lolz, there's clearly an imbalance somewhere.


I don't want to say it ....
but i'm going to have to.

sorry but "for the LOL's" is reason enough.
It's an initial core design feature of the game
if you undock, your a target, because you undocked.

it's why eve is eve, and other games are not.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#107 - 2013-09-18 00:26:17 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:
making piracy more realistic, from a consequences point of view ...

how do you hang a miscreant when yardarms are no longer a feature of ship design ?
also imprisonment would totally suck as a gameplay aspect
(it's what they used to do to pirates ... hanging or jail)

current system may be flawed, but it works and is playable

Well it works until you undock with nothing worthwhile to gank and you get ganked just for lols. The game needs to be balanced to the point that you CAN gank a ship but the penalties are such that if you are ganking one there needs to be a reason to do so.

Lulz is not a good enough reason. Its annoying at the very least and a huge loss when its an empty freighter or an empty jump freighter.

I think when ships are being popped empty for lolz, there's clearly an imbalance somewhere.


I don't want to say it ....
but i'm going to have to.

sorry but "for the LOL's" is reason enough.
It's an initial core design feature of the game
if you undock, your a target, because you undocked.

it's why eve is eve, and other games are not.


Somebody told me this once, and it left an impression.

In a sandbox game, "because I can" is reason enough.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Khen'do Khen
#108 - 2013-09-18 01:06:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Khen'do Khen
Luna Void wrote:
If you promote suicidal ganking, you promote anarchy.


This game is pretty much a text-book example of Anarchy.
lollerwaffle
Perkone
Caldari State
#109 - 2013-09-18 01:56:28 UTC
Owen Levanth wrote:
I like this. And to balance it out, every CONCORD-ship a player destroys earns you a "strike" on your character. The sec loss and the other penalties stay, of course. You just survive with your ship.

Let's say every character gets five strikes on top of normal penatlies like sec loss, which means you get five "Get out of jail free"-cards to run off after a gank. But if your character commits to many crimes, CONCORD orders your clones destroyed and you can't make new ones anymore. No jump clones, no medical clone. Nothing. If your character gets podded, you die and your character gets automatically erased.

Now you can make a new gank-character, but you got severely punished for your crimes, so everyone wins!

One of the most stupid things I've seen on these forums, and that's saying a lot.

You want to perma ban a character for ganking? Seriously? Are you an idiot?

You kill waves and waves of NPC pirates, maybe if your ship pops, you should have a chance of permadeath if you get podded by the NPC's? After all, you've been killing them in droves, and they surely have a bone to pick with you. Also, since NPC's have very limited AI and all missions are predictable down to the number of NPC's, if you're stupid/rubbish enough to die to them, you deserve character permadeath. Right? Roll
lollerwaffle
Perkone
Caldari State
#110 - 2013-09-18 02:10:39 UTC  |  Edited by: lollerwaffle
Luna Void wrote:
So, an internet game gives you the chance to gain in game currency by pissing others and you yell "hell yeah!!", EVE is supposed to be in hands of mature players working on groups to make an empire out of nothing, not for kids making cash by suicidally killing others.

Do you consider yourself mature? What are your ingame activities? Shooting NPCs (i.e. make believe internet spaceship bad guys)? And you have the gall to call others immature? Otherwise, you think yourself mature? What have you built? I don't see your highsec empire anywhere. The 'kids' are creating more content than someone like you ever will.
Luna Void wrote:
If you promote suicidal ganking, you promote anarchy. yay for CONCORD shooting at everyone just coz they are in a miner ship (which of course means they are rich players who have infinite replaceable ships) and someone else can loot it. Hope that feature comes soon enough. coff*

If CCP didn't want anarchy in their game, they wouldn't allow suicide ganking, and probably wouldn't have made the game in the first place. YAY to using stupid hyperbole to try and support your post. Roll

Luna Void wrote:
If CCP promotes player income by piracy instead of industry, EVE online won't last another decade due to newbies feeling the game too hostile in their trial period and thus not subrcribing, not to mention the ragers who want to build instead of to shoot; player base lockdown, and eventually player migration to another MMO where no one can touch the things you achieve.

Where did we hear this before? Oh right, 10 years ago. Roll CCP isn't so stupid as to create something where only 1 play style is valid, as is apparent by their current balance. Give them some credit.

Luna Void wrote:
I feel sorry for those who found a game where they can be the bad guys and do it without giving a damn about other people when there are so many other ways to make the same profit.

I feel sorry for those who found a game where other people can be bad guys and do it without giving a damn about how other people feel over losing at said game. You lost a ship to gankers? Well, you lost that round, reship and try again. Would you like a congratulatory star everytime you managed to undock and re-dock without getting blown up? Roll You say there are many ways to make a profit, and this is one of them. So you are unable to accept the choices other people, both victim and perpetrator, make?

Your arguments have been posted before, and guess what? "OH NOES EVE IS DYING BECAUSE GANKERS" was around 10 years ago, 5 years ago, 5 months ago and 5 days ago. Think of some better arguments instead repeating baseless drivel that has been repeated and refuted.

Gaidin Hollow wrote:
You are making too much sense. CCP aren't concern about that, they aren't concern about those same gankers making 10 or more temp alts on free accounts and causing hell for corps either. It is a sad state of affairs and from what I have read it will only get worse.

Idiot from peanut gallery claims someone that agrees with his point of view 'MAKES SENSE' Refuse to engage brain and resorts to hyperbole.

More news at 11.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#111 - 2013-09-18 02:31:57 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:
making piracy more realistic, from a consequences point of view ...

how do you hang a miscreant when yardarms are no longer a feature of ship design ?
also imprisonment would totally suck as a gameplay aspect
(it's what they used to do to pirates ... hanging or jail)

current system may be flawed, but it works and is playable

Well it works until you undock with nothing worthwhile to gank and you get ganked just for lols. The game needs to be balanced to the point that you CAN gank a ship but the penalties are such that if you are ganking one there needs to be a reason to do so.

Lulz is not a good enough reason. Its annoying at the very least and a huge loss when its an empty freighter or an empty jump freighter.

I think when ships are being popped empty for lolz, there's clearly an imbalance somewhere.


I don't want to say it ....
but i'm going to have to.

sorry but "for the LOL's" is reason enough.
It's an initial core design feature of the game
if you undock, your a target, because you undocked.

it's why eve is eve, and other games are not.

While I agree if you undock you're a target, I do not agree with low penalties and low cost of the lol ganks.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#112 - 2013-09-18 02:49:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganthrithor
Lol, carebears lecturing someone who lives in a player-built empire about how the purpose of EVE is to "build an empire out of nothing" while they sit in their pre-fab highsec space in their personal, zero-tax mission running corp using NPC station services and NPC handouts for income.

*matrix_neo_woah.mkv*
Crimson Gauntlet
Six Gun Sound
#113 - 2013-09-18 03:32:08 UTC
Quote:
While I agree if you undock you're a target, I do not agree with low penalties and low cost of the lol ganks.


The penalties are actually hideous, and the costs are significant.

We simply take steps to mitigate them, because we are good players. As opposed to the brainless slugs who sit afk on a belt and wonder why they died. Roll

Really, think about this for a minute, ok? As a neg ten, faction police chase you everywhere you go. You may as well never undock in anything bigger than a destroyer because of this, or it will get blown up. Ditto for others players shooting at you, because at any time someone can harvest your pod for the lulz, so again, you might as well get a debuff that says you cannot undock in anything bigger than a destroyer.

As a consequence, trade hubs become a slightly more than tricky proposition. (in everything but a shuttle, Jita might as well be self destruct)

You cannot mission or mine or explore. Because faction police will kill you, if another player doesn't do it first.

So, to summarize:

You cannot misson. You cannot haul stuff. You cannot mine. You cannot explore. You cannot behave in any way as a typical highsec character does. In fact until recently there was fundamentally no appropriate way to even get your sec status back up.

So why does it surprise you that people gank? Thanks to all the restrictions that people like you have already heaped on ganking and characters who do it, if we don't gank, we might as well delete the character.

So yeah, after a decade of that, we've gotten pretty damned good at it. We know how to mitigate the ludicrous consequences you have heaped upon us. We know how to fit our ships for maximum return for our money, which we HAVE TO since we don't get insurance anymore. We're like wormhole players, made hardy and strong from our hardships, and turned into a better class of player as a result, and we are proud of what we are.

The difference is, wormhole players chose to accept the hardships of their lifestyle. We had ours chosen for us by the whining cries to the devs from people who couldn't be asked to fit a tank on their ships or be at their keyboard to defend themselves.
Number of times my posts have come in after the dev/mod locked the thread:  1
Dr0000 Maulerant
Union Nanide and Tooling
#114 - 2013-09-18 03:46:53 UTC
Crimson Gauntlet wrote:
Quote:
While I agree if you undock you're a target, I do not agree with low penalties and low cost of the lol ganks.


The penalties are actually hideous, and the costs are significant.

We simply take steps to mitigate them, because we are good players. As opposed to the brainless slugs who sit afk on a belt and wonder why they died. Roll

Really, think about this for a minute, ok? As a neg ten, faction police chase you everywhere you go. You may as well never undock in anything bigger than a destroyer because of this, or it will get blown up. Ditto for others players shooting at you, because at any time someone can harvest your pod for the lulz, so again, you might as well get a debuff that says you cannot undock in anything bigger than a destroyer.

As a consequence, trade hubs become a slightly more than tricky proposition. (in everything but a shuttle, Jita might as well be self destruct)

You cannot mission or mine or explore. Because faction police will kill you, if another player doesn't do it first.

So, to summarize:

You cannot misson. You cannot haul stuff. You cannot mine. You cannot explore. You cannot behave in any way as a typical highsec character does. In fact until recently there was fundamentally no appropriate way to even get your sec status back up.

So why does it surprise you that people gank? Thanks to all the restrictions that people like you have already heaped on ganking and characters who do it, if we don't gank, we might as well delete the character.

So yeah, after a decade of that, we've gotten pretty damned good at it. We know how to mitigate the ludicrous consequences you have heaped upon us. We know how to fit our ships for maximum return for our money, which we HAVE TO since we don't get insurance anymore. We're like wormhole players, made hardy and strong from our hardships, and turned into a better class of player as a result, and we are proud of what we are.

The difference is, wormhole players chose to accept the hardships of their lifestyle. We had ours chosen for us by the whining cries to the devs from people who couldn't be asked to fit a tank on their ships or be at their keyboard to defend themselves.



Load cookie cutter catalyst fit, undock, warp to scout, scram/point fire. Collect ISK from someone elses work.

Let me see if i can find that little violin....

Tell me again about how every playstyle you dont engage in "doesn't require any effort" and everyone who does it needs to die in a fire. Be sure to mention about how you tried it once but it was too easy/boring/ethnic-homophobic slur. 

Crimson Gauntlet
Six Gun Sound
#115 - 2013-09-18 03:54:14 UTC
Quote:
Load cookie cutter catalyst fit, undock, warp to scout, scram/point fire. Collect ISK from someone elses work.

Let me see if i can find that little violin....


You forgot the fact that it's still a hell of a lot more effort than the guy who is afk in the belt has ever used.

More effort = more chance of "winning". That's a good thing.
Number of times my posts have come in after the dev/mod locked the thread:  1
Dr0000 Maulerant
Union Nanide and Tooling
#116 - 2013-09-18 04:44:03 UTC
That's the thing, both activities sound easy on paper. The devil is in the details though. I will take you at your word that ganking is more effort than mining. That having been said, barge mining is not something done efficiently without a fair amount of thought.

I also question how many miners are actually making ISK while AFK... don't get me wrong, I've fallen asleep mining a few times but I've yet to wake up with a full ore bay.

Tell me again about how every playstyle you dont engage in "doesn't require any effort" and everyone who does it needs to die in a fire. Be sure to mention about how you tried it once but it was too easy/boring/ethnic-homophobic slur. 

Crimson Gauntlet
Six Gun Sound
#117 - 2013-09-18 05:02:35 UTC
Dr0000 Maulerant wrote:
That's the thing, both activities sound easy on paper. The devil is in the details though. I will take you at your word that ganking is more effort than mining. That having been said, barge mining is not something done efficiently without a fair amount of thought.

I also question how many miners are actually making ISK while AFK... don't get me wrong, I've fallen asleep mining a few times but I've yet to wake up with a full ore bay.


For a lot of people, mining isn't really about efficiency. It's about taking a week to get into a retriever, warping to a belt, locking roids, and alt tabbing while watching family guy on Netflix. Check back every time it yells at you that the "asteroid is depleted", oh, ore bay is full, time to warp back and start over again.

So yeah, it's not a ton of money, but it's basically thoughtless. And at that point, what's the difference between them and a badly coded, inefficient bot? They aren't playing the game. Whatever people might tell me or themselves about how they are just saving up to PvP, or whatever, it's just an excuse. There are better ways to make money, hell there are tons of better ways.

But none that require less effort. Can't you see how some people might object to that? How people might treat them like they are a lower class of player?
Number of times my posts have come in after the dev/mod locked the thread:  1
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#118 - 2013-09-18 06:14:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Crimson Gauntlet wrote:
[quote=Dr0000 Maulerant]That's the thing, both activities sound easy on paper. The devil is in the details though. I will take you at your word that ganking is more effort than mining. That having been said, barge mining is not something done efficiently without a fair amount of thought.

I also question how many miners are actually making ISK while AFK... don't get me wrong, I've fallen asleep mining a few times but I've yet to wake up with a full ore bay.


For a lot of people, mining isn't really about efficiency. It's about taking a week to get into a retriever, warping to a belt, locking roids, and alt tabbing while watching family guy on Netflix. Check back every time it yells at you that the "asteroid is depleted", oh, ore bay is full, time to warp back and start over again.

So yeah, it's not a ton of money, but it's basically thoughtless. And at that point, what's the difference between them and a badly coded, inefficient bot? They aren't playing the game. Whatever people might tell me or themselves about how they are just saving up to PvP, or whatever, it's just an excuse. There are better ways to make money, hell there are tons of better ways.

But none that require less effort. Can't you see how some people might object to that? How people might treat them like they are a lower class of player?[/quote]
You do realise that suicide gankers are just a touch above botters in the player hierarchy?.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Crimson Gauntlet
Six Gun Sound
#119 - 2013-09-18 06:17:47 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Crimson Gauntlet wrote:
[quote=Dr0000 Maulerant]That's the thing, both activities sound easy on paper. The devil is in the details though. I will take you at your word that ganking is more effort than mining. That having been said, barge mining is not something done efficiently without a fair amount of thought.

I also question how many miners are actually making ISK while AFK... don't get me wrong, I've fallen asleep mining a few times but I've yet to wake up with a full ore bay.


For a lot of people, mining isn't really about efficiency. It's about taking a week to get into a retriever, warping to a belt, locking roids, and alt tabbing while watching family guy on Netflix. Check back every time it yells at you that the "asteroid is depleted", oh, ore bay is full, time to warp back and start over again.

So yeah, it's not a ton of money, but it's basically thoughtless. And at that point, what's the difference between them and a badly coded, inefficient bot? They aren't playing the game. Whatever people might tell me or themselves about how they are just saving up to PvP, or whatever, it's just an excuse. There are better ways to make money, hell there are tons of better ways.

But none that require less effort. Can't you see how some people might object to that? How people might treat them like they are a lower class of player?[/quote]
You do realise that suicide gankers are just a touch above botters in the player hierarchy?.


It would be difficult not to be. Botters aren't actually players. And afk miners barely are. That's like telling me that as a person, I am a higher form of life than a beetle. Stating the obvious.
Number of times my posts have come in after the dev/mod locked the thread:  1
Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#120 - 2013-09-18 06:22:15 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Make highsec safer


Yes please. Thats why it's called high security space, low security space and lawless space are that way ->

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm