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Why doesn't eve have a stock market?
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Dr0000 Maulerant
Union Nanide and Tooling
#1 - 2013-09-17 17:52:16 UTC
I remember being really excited when I saw that EVE had stocks, then seeing that there was no market, no guaranteed dividends.

Clearly there is massive potential to increase corporate funding, and guarantee some ROI for investors. So why isn't this already a thing?

Tell me again about how every playstyle you dont engage in "doesn't require any effort" and everyone who does it needs to die in a fire. Be sure to mention about how you tried it once but it was too easy/boring/ethnic-homophobic slur. 
supernova ranger
The End of Eternity
#2 - 2013-09-17 17:54:40 UTC
We do, its just no one uses it

Buying stocks means you get a controlling share of the company and you have to know that giving someone that kind of power for just isk is asking for them to derp with it... like that would be able to replace the ceo and then close down/ lock out sov sec for the underlying alliances
Dr0000 Maulerant
Union Nanide and Tooling
#3 - 2013-09-17 18:10:26 UTC
Thats why you don't give someone else controlling interest, you dilute shares and reduce dividends but the CEO/board maintains majority control. I'm saying there should be a market-like interface to buy stocks from publicly traded corporations & shareholders.

Tell me again about how every playstyle you dont engage in "doesn't require any effort" and everyone who does it needs to die in a fire. Be sure to mention about how you tried it once but it was too easy/boring/ethnic-homophobic slur. 
Vaeldan Athargan
Lonetrek Arsenal
#4 - 2013-09-17 19:26:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaeldan Athargan
But shares cannot be rescinded. They are with whomever you grant them to... forever. If you have 10 members and grant 10% corp stock to each, then 2 leave, 3 go inactive... even if the CEO/Board retain the other 50%, you cannot reach a quorum on available voting shares.

There would need to be 'public' shares (for profiteering and speculation) and 'internal' shares (for corp votes, control aspects, internal use). If one wanted dividends, buy public shares. If you want to have a vote in the corp, get yourself internal shares.

Stocks have different aspects in RL. They could here, too.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#5 - 2013-09-17 20:09:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
Why no stock market? In short because it would rely on trust in an environment of minimal consequences.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#6 - 2013-09-17 21:17:36 UTC
This topic has come up quite a few times. If you have a search on the forums you'll probably find long and informative threads on the issue.

In short, to have a stock exchange the shares system and corp system as a whole would have to either be coded to be impossible to cheat which would lock down how corps work to the point where people would complain (not to mention having some serious practicality problems) and it would be extremely detrimental for the game or CCP would have to hire staff for a permanent Market Supervision and Regulations department to monitor the market and enforce the market rules. This is almost impossible to code which is why only some of this is done by computers in real stock exchanges.

So whilst I would love to have a stock exchange in the game it is simply too problematic to implement.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#7 - 2013-09-17 21:25:52 UTC
Because the CFC would mass speculate in derivatives and bankrupt the economy. :D

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
supernova ranger
The End of Eternity
#8 - 2013-09-17 21:26:11 UTC
If you removed the idea of stocks and went with trust bonds or something... maybe
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#9 - 2013-09-17 21:28:23 UTC
supernova ranger wrote:
If you removed the idea of stocks and went with junk bonds or something... maybe


Fixed it for you...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2013-09-17 22:09:27 UTC
Here you go.

Other things to look up:

Moral Hazard
Asymmetric information

These are the reasons there is no stock market.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#11 - 2013-09-17 22:32:43 UTC
High sec carebears would buy shares in null sec alliances and form voter blocks of shareholders, they would then slowly take control of their boards and you would never, ever, ever see events like hulkageddon or burn jita again. Big numbers of ship losses would affect corporate profits and the share price would drop, putting an end to ganking and larger fleet engagements. besides the other points mentioned a stock market is very un eve because isk, minerals and ships are only a means to an end. Power and influence is what eve is all about, not the absolute accumulation of wealth.

Plus stock markets have royally ****** our world economy, lets not unleash the same **** on new eden.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#12 - 2013-09-17 22:39:19 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
High sec carebears would buy shares in null sec alliances and form voter blocks of shareholders, they would then slowly take control of their boards and you would never, ever, ever see events like hulkageddon or burn jita again. Big numbers of ship losses would affect corporate profits and the share price would drop, putting an end to ganking and larger fleet engagements. besides the other points mentioned a stock market is very un eve because isk, minerals and ships are only a means to an end. Power and influence is what eve is all about, not the absolute accumulation of wealth.

Plus stock markets have royally ****** our world economy, lets not unleash the same **** on new eden.


Supply is only half the equation. Without demand the supply is meaningless. Even the most insular carebear understands what happens when nobody buys ships.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-09-17 23:14:50 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
High sec carebears would buy shares in null sec alliances and form voter blocks of shareholders, they would then slowly take control of their boards and you would never, ever, ever see events like hulkageddon or burn jita again. Big numbers of ship losses would affect corporate profits and the share price would drop, putting an end to ganking and larger fleet engagements. besides the other points mentioned a stock market is very un eve because isk, minerals and ships are only a means to an end. Power and influence is what eve is all about, not the absolute accumulation of wealth.

Plus stock markets have royally ****** our world economy, lets not unleash the same **** on new eden.



why would high sec care bears do that ?
what's in it for them ?

I was always under the impression that most care bears don't care about nul sec.
Sigras
Conglomo
#14 - 2013-09-18 00:43:09 UTC
the problem is that in real life, stocks have value because companies have value that can be measured and quantified. In Eve, how exactly do you measure the value of a corporation? What is the stock value based on?

Also, in real life, when you empty the corporation expense account into your bank account the police come and arrest you for embezzling money. In Eve, they make a promotional video about what you did.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#15 - 2013-09-18 04:40:32 UTC
Sigras wrote:
the problem is that in real life, stocks have value because companies have value that can be measured and quantified. In Eve, how exactly do you measure the value of a corporation? What is the stock value based on?


The same way the market measures the value of commodities (with the caveat given below....).

Quote:
Also, in real life, when you empty the corporation expense account into your bank account the police come and arrest you for embezzling money. In Eve, they make a promotional video about what you did.


Pretty much. In other words with out an enforceable legal structure corporations and selling stocks would devolve into nothing but scams. It is very much like the Lemon Model by George Akerlof. In that case it was used cars, but with no way to show whether a car is a lemon or a peach you end up with just a market full of lemons.

Yes, it is just that simple.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dr0000 Maulerant
Union Nanide and Tooling
#16 - 2013-09-18 05:03:48 UTC
Sigras wrote:
the problem is that in real life, stocks have value because companies have value that can be measured and quantified. In Eve, how exactly do you measure the value of a corporation? What is the stock value based on?

Also, in real life, when you empty the corporation expense account into your bank account the police come and arrest you for embezzling money. In Eve, they make a promotional video about what you did.


I can quantify the assets of my corporation, or any corporation. As soon as your company becomes publicly traded though your stock value is market based.

In real life when you use complicated investments to transfer corporate money to your private bank account the government reinflates your business with money.

Also, in EVE, since when is "because it would basically be a giant stinking rube-goldberg-eldritch scam machine" a reason not to do something?

Tell me again about how every playstyle you dont engage in "doesn't require any effort" and everyone who does it needs to die in a fire. Be sure to mention about how you tried it once but it was too easy/boring/ethnic-homophobic slur. 
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#17 - 2013-09-18 05:29:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Dr0000 Maulerant wrote:
Sigras wrote:
the problem is that in real life, stocks have value because companies have value that can be measured and quantified. In Eve, how exactly do you measure the value of a corporation? What is the stock value based on?

Also, in real life, when you empty the corporation expense account into your bank account the police come and arrest you for embezzling money. In Eve, they make a promotional video about what you did.


I can quantify the assets of my corporation, or any corporation. As soon as your company becomes publicly traded though your stock value is market based.

In real life when you use complicated investments to transfer corporate money to your private bank account the government reinflates your business with money.

Also, in EVE, since when is "because it would basically be a giant stinking rube-goldberg-eldritch scam machine" a reason not to do something?


CCP neither condones nor does it condemn scams. What you are asking for comes perilously close to the former. That is probably why.

Unless of course you want a stock market to come into being spontaneously (don't laugh, I'm being serious), in which case, nothing is stopping your from making the attempt...well other than it will almost surely devolve into nothing other than a "giant stinking rube-goldberg-eldritch scam machine".

Good luck! Smile

BTW, nice turn of phrase there: giant stinking rube-goldberg-eldritch scam machine.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#18 - 2013-09-18 10:48:50 UTC
We don't need less scams in eve, stocks would require a great amount of that, eve is a sandbox and it is the best sandbox because people can mostly do whatever they want not being limited by such rules which results in a very diverse and awesome environment.

Add new variables... YES
Narrow down our playing field... NO

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#19 - 2013-09-18 16:24:35 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
We don't need less scams in eve, stocks would require a great amount of that, eve is a sandbox and it is the best sandbox because people can mostly do whatever they want not being limited by such rules which results in a very diverse and awesome environment.

Add new variables... YES
Narrow down our playing field... NO


Well...one possibility that CCP could do, maybe, without necessarily condoning scamming, split the stocks:

Preferred stocks: No dividend and voting rights.
Public stocks: Traded on the "market" and receive a dividend.

By market it could be informal--i.e. players could do it between themselves, or formal on the market we currently have. Not sure how much of a space issue it could be though....

Now if you want to "invest" in a corporation you'd simply buy public stock shares.

You'd still have issues regarding going out of business/seizing assets/etc., but well caveat emptor.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#20 - 2013-09-21 23:10:55 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
High sec carebears would buy shares in null sec alliances and form voter blocks of shareholders, they would then slowly take control of their boards and you would never, ever, ever see events like hulkageddon or burn jita again. Big numbers of ship losses would affect corporate profits and the share price would drop, putting an end to ganking and larger fleet engagements. besides the other points mentioned a stock market is very un eve because isk, minerals and ships are only a means to an end. Power and influence is what eve is all about, not the absolute accumulation of wealth.

Plus stock markets have royally ****** our world economy, lets not unleash the same **** on new eden.



why would high sec care bears do that ?
what's in it for them ?

I was always under the impression that most care bears don't care about nul sec.


What's in it for them? Try absolute safety.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
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