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Removal of cloaks in Faction Warfare plexes
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Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen
#21 - 2013-09-11 03:07:13 UTC
If someone wants to gimp their ship by fitting 2-4 warp core stabs and a crappy non-covops cloak, power to them.

l2gank
Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen
#22 - 2013-09-11 03:09:23 UTC
Oh, and complaining when someone you want to kill warps away is stupid. EVE isn't about you having the fights YOU want on a platter.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#23 - 2013-09-11 03:11:10 UTC
I will repeat that I said in another thread on the same subject.

Quote:
This was brought up at a Fanfest 2013 roundtable.

The DEVs explained they were hesitant to outright ban certain modules simply because people didn't like them or it didn't fit into how they thought people should "play." Rather, if they think that there is a problem they prefer that "organic" solutions be developed to discourage the use of certain tactics/modules, but would never prevent anyone from using them altogether.

How did you Veterans start?
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-09-11 07:56:31 UTC
Gospadin wrote:
If someone wants to gimp their ship by fitting 2-4 warp core stabs and a crappy non-covops cloak, power to them.

l2gank

Yea, yea, power to them.

Just don't let them run buttons and earn money in this.
Let them sit and look stupidly at the timer, that halted.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#25 - 2013-09-11 19:51:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Count Szadek wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
LOL you people are losers, seriously what kind of sad lives must you be living if the only way you can feel better about yourselves is by griefing and harassing noobs... and don't try telling me it's about faction warfare when groups of "l333t's" abuse me in local and chase me around multiple systems while ignoring other wartargets who might actually be able to give them a fight because they have been playing for more than a month.

I use stabs so I can chose my battles and the same goes for most of the people using them, they are noobs like me, thats what nobody mentions when they **** and moan about stabs. They are not players equal to them in experience or skillpoints but vastly inferior pilots who wouldn't stand a chance in a pvp fight against a vet. If you really want to kill noobs with tech1 fits go get more scrams and quit crying in local like your some kind of badass looking for a fight, when all you want to do is pop noobs. If a 5year vet comes to my plex im dead if i sit and fight him, if someone has only been playing a few months comes in I will go after them and take my chances, having stabs allows me to make that choice. Its a legitimate tactic and the only coward is the experienced player who hunts noobs all day to inflate his crappy killboard. I've had a few good fair fights with ppl I consider to be around or slightly above my level, if I warp out when you come in it's not because I always warp out, it's because I warp out when the odds are hopeless, instead of getting mad just go pick a fight with someone who can actually give you a fight.

I sacrifice a lot to fit stabs, apart from the penalty to targeting and resolution it also makes it very difficult to fit webs or scrams because they use up all the cpu, I think that's punishment enough. I look forward to the day I can drop them, because regardless of what you say about "farming" when your constantly running from plexes your lucky to get one plex done in an hour, and at tier1 that amounts to maybe 8000 lp. After I take away all the isk I lose in ships and the time it takes tripping back and forward to high sec for new ones I'd make more isk mining in high sec, but this way I get a little pvp on my terms and it's more interesting if I wasn't constantly getting griefed and harrassed by people for using a fitting that I AM ALLOWED TO USE IF I WANT TO. I've already sold 3 plexes to pay for my losses and that's enough scarificed at the altar of l333t ego for one month, abuse me in local all you want, blob me and spend hours chasing me around multiple systems if that makes you happy... but really your just a scum bag, not a hard man looking for pvp but a troll who wants to pop noobs because your sadly lacking in some other area.

Last thing I would add is be careful what you wish for, this game is already inaccessible to most casual gamers, I never would have stayed around but I like the group Im with. If ccp make it any harder for new players to get started people will stop trying, stop signing up and eventually the game will die and your shiny ships and killboards, and mountains of isk will disappear when the servers shut down. Just play the game and stop whinging about not being able to kill every noob that crosses your path


I think the main issue with new players in faction warfare, is that the tutorial do not show you how to PROPERLY fit a PVP ship. The reason I say this is I can make a new toon, and within 10 hours of training, can have a low dps pvp ship ready to go (and have actually killed 2-3 year old toons with it within 2 days of playing). It is a misconception in Eve that you have to have a lot of SP to be awesome, when it actually doesn't take that much SP to fight.

Now that you posted that, I retract my prior post of the cloak change *above, but would rather see a PVP tutorial that is built into the game. Now this could be tricky, but perhaps something like a proper fitting a ship tutorial instead of "This is how you put a Shield Booster on" would be more effective. If not, maybe even focus a bit more of showing the certificates as many new players, don't even know that they are there to give a guide of what to train to be successful (See Core Comp - Basic).
I'm not disagreeing with the concept of better tutorials ( they are needed) but you starting an alt toon and getting kills on toons with 2 to 3 yrs SP with 10 hours of training? Yes it could happen but only for someone who has previous (and fairly lengthy) experience on another toon. It isn't simply a matter of throwing guns and a shield on a frigate and go get kills, knowing what to fight and how is probably a bigger factor for the newer player. Tutorials can't teach you that.
As the guy you quoted from said, many new players would like to get more pvp but know it is useless for a month old toon to try and fight 4 or 5 frigates, many experienced pilots are going to get out of there when a small gang arrives too.
The most important thing people seem to not mention, when someone in a plex sees local spike by 5 or 6 or even 10 people he is on guard and ready to warp because you know, the 1st 1 into the plex is the tackle, once he has you tackled he will hold you there while his buddies warp in to get on the kill. Now if the mechanics were changed so that only 1 could warp in, as in PVP Player Versus Player, not player vs a small gang, many would actually stay and fight for their plexes as warping out cloaking or whatever is a pain but getting ... ...... by a gang no matter if it is a gang of 2 or 10 is still not real PVP is it?? Or maybe is should really be called P'sVP - PlayerS Versus Player

Don't get me wrong I like fleets and fleet up often for roams etc and although getting an easy solo kill with a 10 man gang or catching a stray orca in lowsec is fun, I enjoy the fights where numbers are similar (a couple more on their side adds to the rush when / if you win) a lot more.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2013-09-11 20:12:16 UTC
Quote:
here have been far to meny and really annoying moments in Faction warfare where farming toons with 2-3-4 warpcore stabs and a non covert ops cloaking device on there bloody atrons/punishers/tristans , sit in plexes completely safe as they just cloak up as soon as someone comes to there plex or enters it.


so don't leave rooms unguarded with loot still in them.. if there are rats in the plex these ships enter and they are targetted of course they cannot cloak no matter what cloak they are using. While cloaked a ship can really do nothing .. even less if it's not a covert cloak. don't solo, don't do plexes, or just fit a cloak yourself. The hate exhibited by the op here is against a vessel that has sacrificed a high slot in order to prudently fit a cloak is obvious but. He could set a trap for the ship. or join them ...but denying a cloak in a plex seems like an ackward limitation...with no logical lore explanation.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#27 - 2013-09-11 20:25:15 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Gospadin wrote:
If someone wants to gimp their ship by fitting 2-4 warp core stabs and a crappy non-covops cloak, power to them.

l2gank

Yea, yea, power to them.

Just don't let them run buttons and earn money in this.
Let them sit and look stupidly at the timer, that halted.
So should AFK or semi AFK ratters also have their drones turned off so they don't make money, should semi afk miners have their mining lasers stopped as soon as they stop watching the screen for a few mins to read a forum post, should gate camps be outlawed because they are being lazy and just sitting there waiting for kills to come to them??
You cloak in a plex the timer stops, you warp out of a plex the timer stops, how is this way of making isk any different to the hundreds of other ways of passively or semi passively making isk in eve? If your going to "fix" FW by limiting what ship fits a player can use, then you also need to limit how much money the scammers in jita and amarr make, then you need to limit how much nulsec sov one alliance can hold and finally how many ships each person is allowed to own.


Honestly, you guys, if plexing really pays as well and is as easy as everyone seems to think it is, why isn't everyone doing it??
And do you all think it is only rookies running stabbed frigates or cloaks while plexing?? From what people keep telling me FW is primarily made up of alts, yes they may be low skilled alts of people with 5 or 6 years eve time but they are not rookies and they use what they know works because their experience playing eve has taught them to play that way.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#28 - 2013-09-17 11:33:14 UTC
what many of u are forgetting is that the objective in this scenario is not to kill the attacking ship, but to defend the plex. And by the sounds of things u succeed in this simply by turning up...

What u should remember though is: This is eve, it is a sand box.

and what that means exactly is that ppl will get to play the game in a way that u might not like. But what it also means is that u can come up with any number of solutions to deal with problem (outside of whining on forums). And sometimes that may take a little work or some friends.

just take afk cloakers in null, or bumping miners that are AFK, or bumping miners that are trying to take the same roids as u.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#29 - 2013-09-17 11:48:38 UTC
This again.

Cloack and WCS do not affect your chance to catch someone in a FW plex if people don't want to fight will not fight, will wapr away as soon as see you warping to the gate, even a not paranoid d-scanner will have at least 20 seconds.

How hard is to understand this basic mechanic??

And, for your information, FW plexes works as any other gated place in EVE. Only is more easy to catch people in it cause they're warpable beacons in the overwiew, no need to probe, and the warp in is close to the target.

I'm sorry for the amateurish non-militia wannabe pirate, but if you have problems to gank people in FW plexes (where the mechanics make it easyer) you'll have far more problem in any other place in EVE.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#30 - 2013-09-17 11:55:00 UTC
The purpose of FW plexes is to provide class-limited battlegrounds for players to fight over system occupancy. However, due to them not having serious rats, and that the timer doesn't reset, ease of fitting a cloak and multiple stabs along with the infinite number of available plexes has resulted in a situation where purpose-built alts are used to harvest massive amounts of LP with close to zero risk (yes, these farmers die every now and then, when they are AFK.)

However, losing a T1 frig with cheap mods is meaningless for them, they are not farming for KB stats, and whatever ISK loss they get is absolutely trivial compared to the LP payouts. If someone turns up on their plex gate, they either cloak up or warp out to the next plex. Losing a plex is not important to them. there are always others to farm.

The problem with this is of course frustration to those who are in FW for the fights, and also that the farmers have a major effect on the warzone occupancy. They are an unloyal mass moving like locusts to whichever faction provides the easiest and most lucrative farming.

Timer rollbacks, buffing the NPCs in plexes and possibly making the timer sphere to disable cloaks could help these issues. I'd also like to suggest adding some LP payout bonus for actually fighting in the plex. Currently the farmer gets more LP from AFK-running an offensive plex than I do, if I kill him and defend the plex (the LP payout from killing him is minimal), even if I somehow would manage to catch him solo in a conventional PVP fit.





.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#31 - 2013-09-17 12:09:58 UTC
Roime wrote:
However, due to them not having serious rats



This is the only problem to fix. Restoring the NPC as they were in past and balance a lot of issues.

Was used to work, then some brillant DEV decided to listen to some even more brillant forum poster and stated that removing NPC was better for PVP. And this is the result.

But NO to add more specific sub-mechanics and subset of rules more we do this more we go toward instanced battlegrounds.




Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#32 - 2013-09-17 12:13:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Roime wrote:
The purpose of FW plexes is to provide class-limited battlegrounds for players to fight over system occupancy.
Yes it is and there in lies one of the biggest reasons people cloak / warp out when someone enters a plex they are in.. Many times it is not "a" ship entering the plex it is 1 tackler and his m8's hunting a solo ship in a plex. Limit it, 1 ship in a plex, 1 ship can warp in to fight it.
Make higher value plex's so that they cannot be captured by a solo frigate. Medium plex could require say, 3 ships to cruiser size to capture, payouts are modified accordingly. Medium plex only 3 defenders / attackers can warpin to fight those trying to capture it

Quote:

Timer rollbacks, buffing the NPCs in plexes and possibly making the timer sphere to disable cloaks could help these issues. I'd also like to suggest adding some LP payout bonus for actually fighting in the plex. Currently the farmer gets more LP from AFK-running an offensive plex than I do, if I kill him and defend the plex (the LP payout from killing him is minimal), even if I somehow would manage to catch him solo in a conventional PVP fit.
Timer rollbacks is a good idea.
You do get an LP payout for defending the plex, all you have to do is win the pvp fight and wait out the remainder of the timer. The fact you get less for 'defending' a plex is good, otherwise the whole system falls down. If you got more LP for defending a plex than capturing it, who would bother capturing? Or look at it this way, you got a kill on your KB and got LP for doing it, win win.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Shahai Shintaro
State War Academy
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-09-17 15:13:40 UTC
I'll admit I only read a few posts. There is nothing wrong with cloaks in plexes. They have their uses. Warp stabs however have no place and should be disabled inside FW plexes
Ghost Phius
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2013-09-17 18:15:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Ghost Phius
Shahai Shintaro wrote:
I'll admit I only read a few posts. There is nothing wrong with cloaks in plexes. They have their uses. Warp stabs however have no place and should be disabled inside FW plexes


Oh you mean it's ok to keep your module of choice while not allowing "those people" to use the module of their choice because you don't like it. Oh I see....ShockedRoll
Sir Jack Falstaff
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-09-17 19:39:08 UTC
The carebear wannabe pirates in here. "Oh no, it's not fair, I want to be a big bad ganker, but how can I do it if they run away? CCP, please fix this unfair mechanism in which I am forced to use cleverness and wits!" Perhaps they will be happy if FW ships in plexes self destruct upon pirate entry, showering them with ISK bounties equal to the value of the ship times two!

You have to work for your kills, just like everyone else. You're just as bad as the carebear miners you so despise, wanting FW pilots to be your own little asteroids to mine.

Banish plump Jack, and banish all the world.
Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#36 - 2013-09-17 19:39:46 UTC
Tomas Brandhart wrote:
Id like Propose a change to the plexing thats currently going on in faction warfare where ship`s that are kitted with a prototype or improved cloak or named one/faction etc, cannot activate the Plex gate,
wile ships that are actually built for covert ops cloaking and have a covert ops cloaking device installed can use the gates into plexes, such as the bombers, recons etc

There have been far to meny and really annoying moments in Faction warfare where farming toons with 2-3-4 warpcore stabs and a non covert ops cloaking device on there bloody atrons/punishers/tristans , sit in plexes completely safe as they just cloak up as soon as someone comes to there plex or enters it.

It is per today annoying enough having to try to kill the ships that are just warp core stabbed inside the Plexes, without adding the extra difficulty of the Muppets with cloaks, with warpcorestabs which basically gives them almost immunity to getting killed.
and lets not get started on the cloaky ventures plexing ..

Could CCP possibly look into this ?




i would have added have the gate deny ships with WCS fitted entry into the plex, but then i think the forum would have exploded with farmer alts posting like angry badgers..


You sir..... are bad and should feel bad. FW seems to be full of snowflakes lately with all the bad ideas they keep posting. Please don't suggest fixes for things that are not broken.
Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#37 - 2013-09-17 19:40:17 UTC
Shahai Shintaro wrote:
I'll admit I only read a few posts. There is nothing wrong with cloaks in plexes. They have their uses. Warp stabs however have no place and should be disabled inside FW plexes


Just as bad as the OP idea(s). WS are just fine as is.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#38 - 2013-09-17 20:43:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Caleb Seremshur
isn't the real solution just tto have the npc inaide the plex require a minimum kind of ship tank/dps to kill that is higher than now? basically make it so that a farmer has a very real chance of getting killed by the npc.

or accept that this is CCP' s most effective isk sink to date and they have no intention of adressing it for the forseeable future
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#39 - 2013-09-17 20:54:56 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:
But NO to add more specific sub-mechanics and subset of rules more we do this more we go toward instanced battlegrounds.


I have to agree with this. I think specific sub-mechanics should be avoided where possible.

However, I dislike the risk-averse and consequence-free thing that faction warfare butan orbiting has become. Most of the farmers I come across are noob alts of established characters.

It makes a mockery of the whole 'consequences' thing that EVE is founded on. Current mechanics FAVOUR using a cloak or stabs in what is meant to be a PVP environment. This should not be the case.

A couple of days ago I warped into a farming Rifter. He warped out of the plex with 20 seconds remaining on the clock. Why? Because there was no consequence to him leaving. He could just wait until I had moved on before warping back in and finishing it off.

Timer rollbacks please. And read Roime's post.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#40 - 2013-09-18 02:15:04 UTC
Zappity wrote:
[quote=Sura Sadiva]

A couple of days ago I warped into a farming Rifter. He warped out of the plex with 20 seconds remaining on the clock. Why? Because there was no consequence to him leaving. He could just wait until I had moved on before warping back in and finishing it off.

Timer rollbacks please. And read Roime's post.
Hmm 20 seconds left on the timer, why did you not just wait it out and claim the LP for yourself. Oh of course, your not in a militia and only hunt plex's for easy access targets.
I also warped into a plex the other day and the incursus that was there warped off, I sat out the remaining 2 mins on the timer and made 3700LP. There are consequences to leaving plex's, just not the type non militia members like.

Yes, if a plex becomes empty the timer should rollback

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
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