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Balancing hi-sec piracy and making it more realistic.

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#41 - 2013-09-17 04:43:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Quote:
The MRAP is an international garbage truck with armor, the HMMV is a resized, detuned semi that they (sometimes) put armor on. From the factory it can take exactly as many bullets as a semi.


Before you said that, you had some credibility.

[Edit: For context, both of those vehicles are not based on previously existing designs. In fact, the HMMV was the basis for about 30-40% of all modern cars. The axle design, in particular, was completely cribbed.

[Further edit: In fact, most civilian designs for a lot of things are half assed copies of military hardware. Satellite infrastructure, radios, weapons, car tires(the modern concept, again, stolen from WW2 era hardware), toughbook laptops and cell phones, food preservatives, the list goes on.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Mr Pragmatic
#42 - 2013-09-17 04:54:43 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
The only balance piracy requires at this point is a loud YARRRRRR! sound clip be played whenever an act of piracy is happening.



That, and add eye patches, hook hands, peglegs, and pirate hats...oooh! and shoulder parrots! add all that to the NEX!



Pirates! Yarrrr!


WiS content, cant have it.

Super cali hella yolo swaga dopeness.  -Yoloswaggins, in the fellowship of the bling.
Lady Areola Fappington
#43 - 2013-09-17 05:03:04 UTC
Dr0000 Maulerant wrote:


The MRAP is an international garbage truck with armor, the HMMV is a resized, detuned semi that they (sometimes) put armor on. From the factory it can take exactly as many bullets as a semi.

I'm saying we shouldn't discount that the same engineering that makes a vehicle capable of surviving a century of service, can make it bulletproof for a few hours. Mining vehicles in particular have heavy steel casting/plate bodywork to survive an errant boulder and to act as ballast, a mining vehicle in space would need this same protection.

No doubt it's a complicated issue, is there such a thing as a "civilian" capsuleer ship? Shouldn't they all be built to withstand the rigors of the universe they live in (which means errant fire) within their classes.

I'm not saying we should buff mining ships, but they shouldn't be "glass shovels" either, because then it isn't even useful as a shovel.



You'd be amazed at how many bullets a HMMWV can take and keep rolling. Saw quite a few of 'em roll into motorpool with a shredded radiator, utterly empty of oil, and still chugging along. Simplest example, HMMWVs have run-flats. Depending on the model runflat, the driver may or may not even notice they have a flat. Most semi's I know don't have run-flats.

The armor made to take a heavy, slow speed impact (assuming all the micrometorites are handled via shields) would be a lot different than, say, spaced armor you'd need to defeat an APFSDS.


As is, a mining vessel can take errant hits, as you phrase it. Thousands of rats die every day to mining barge's defensive drones, never once punching through the barges shielding. What the mining ship can't take, though, is a co-ordinated attack from either multiple combat class ships, or a single highly trained pilot. It's not what it's made to do.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Dr0000 Maulerant
Union Nanide and Tooling
#44 - 2013-09-17 05:14:08 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
The MRAP is an international garbage truck with armor, the HMMV is a resized, detuned semi that they (sometimes) put armor on. From the factory it can take exactly as many bullets as a semi.


Before you said that, you had some credibility.

[Edit: For context, both of those vehicles are not based on previously existing designs. In fact, the HMMV was the basis for about 30-40% of all modern cars. The axle design, in particular, was completely cribbed.
.


I'm not even joking, the navistar MRAP is literally an armored international vocational chassis.


Any feature/part you can find on an HMMV you can find on a semi, inboard brakes, portal axles, detroit deisel engine, allison c5/6. Not all that popular, not at all cheap, but apparently you cant log northern canada without em.

Tell me again about how every playstyle you dont engage in "doesn't require any effort" and everyone who does it needs to die in a fire. Be sure to mention about how you tried it once but it was too easy/boring/ethnic-homophobic slur. 
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2013-09-17 05:36:02 UTC
I think they should buff high sec pirates... I think CCP should give them a free set of balls... then they can fight things that can fight back

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Crimson Gauntlet
Six Gun Sound
#46 - 2013-09-17 05:38:52 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I think they should buff high sec pirates... I think CCP should give them a free set of balls... then they can fight things that can fight back


Oh, come now, that's just silly. What on earth would I need 5 balls for?
Number of times my posts have come in after the dev/mod locked the thread:  1
Dr0000 Maulerant
Union Nanide and Tooling
#47 - 2013-09-17 05:40:13 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:


You'd be amazed at how many bullets a HMMWV can take and keep rolling. Saw quite a few of 'em roll into motorpool with a shredded radiator, utterly empty of oil, and still chugging along. Simplest example, HMMWVs have run-flats. Depending on the model runflat, the driver may or may not even notice they have a flat. Most semi's I know don't have run-flats.

The armor made to take a heavy, slow speed impact (assuming all the micrometorites are handled via shields) would be a lot different than, say, spaced armor you'd need to defeat an APFSDS.


As is, a mining vessel can take errant hits, as you phrase it. Thousands of rats die every day to mining barge's defensive drones, never once punching through the barges shielding. What the mining ship can't take, though, is a co-ordinated attack from either multiple combat class ships, or a single highly trained pilot. It's not what it's made to do.


I've been told they actually drop engine (detune) power to make the engine capable of limping home sans cooling system.

A few inches of steel would take care of all but the least micro of meteorites, and I think your APFSDS example would be a weak point to any industrial vehicle, while being easily defeated by a tanks reactive armor. The weird part is, that weapons designed to defeat reactive combat armor, shape charges, HEAT rounds, would be at a (comparative) disadvantage against meters of plain old iron found in an industrial.

Tell me again about how every playstyle you dont engage in "doesn't require any effort" and everyone who does it needs to die in a fire. Be sure to mention about how you tried it once but it was too easy/boring/ethnic-homophobic slur. 
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2013-09-17 05:59:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
They nerf and they nerf and its still never enough.


I remember reading James 315's manifesto on the subject a while back. I wasn't fully converted until I started becoming more active on the forums.

But he's completely right. Couched in all of the pseudo religious trolling and stuff, he's spot on about how carebears operate. It's always "just a little bit more", and everytime the real players figure out a way around that, it's "just a little bit more" all over again.

The problem with his and your sentiment is both Carebears and the self-elected "Fully Awesome Gamer's" both utilize as much of that little bit more safety as they can get.

I mean that's why you're all so strongly against anything changing from the status quo, where you:

1. Sit in your little blob entirely safe protected by Concorde from anyone other than people with kill rights or war decs (concorde protection)
2. Sit entirely safe protected by Concorde protected from any sort of harsh loss more than a dessie. (reverse isk tanking)
3. Use a freighter that can instant warp (aligned, webbed) and dock in an invulnerable station when you use freighters.
4. Use tags to get your faction back up nice and quick so you can enjoy the safety benefits of high sec which you all pretend to hate so much.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Lady Areola Fappington
#49 - 2013-09-17 06:03:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Areola Fappington
Dr0000 Maulerant wrote:
[quote=Lady Areola Fappington]



I've been told they actually drop engine (detune) power to make the engine capable of limping home sans cooling system.

A few inches of steel would take care of all but the least micro of meteorites, and I think your APFSDS example would be a weak point to any industrial vehicle, while being easily defeated by a tanks reactive armor. The weird part is, that weapons designed to defeat reactive combat armor, shape charges, HEAT rounds, would be at a (comparative) disadvantage against meters of plain old iron found in an industrial.


You may be right on that, with the HMMWV. Personal example, the front of my ambulance got blown off basically by an IED. We got out of the area, stopped, and BDAR'ed the hell out of it, and she limped home. Every tire blown out, radiator basically gone, front engone cover gone, and an alternator running off a tightly tied combat bandage, but we limped her in the gate!

Still, it makes sense. We can probably assume that combat vessels have all sorts of defensive systems made to counteract incoming threats, be that what they are. All those defenses, though, are going to take up space and require upkeep. An industrial, on the other hand, is going to have environmental defenses, which may or may not be effective against weaponry. I've always figured that those outrigger shields you see on the barges is made to take asteroid impact without damaging vital systems...great for a big dumb rock heading your way, but worthless against a gunner aiming for all those exposed twirly bits.

As an addendum, Barges, exhumers, and freighters can take quite a few hits before going down. If we looked back at RL, it'd take a destroyer one, maybe two hits with anti-ship missiles, to sink a freight hauler.



More lulz, from now on, adhering to "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose" is now known as "reverse ISK tanking".

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#50 - 2013-09-17 06:06:44 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
They nerf and they nerf and its still never enough.


I remember reading James 315's manifesto on the subject a while back. I wasn't fully converted until I started becoming more active on the forums.

But he's completely right. Couched in all of the pseudo religious trolling and stuff, he's spot on about how carebears operate. It's always "just a little bit more", and everytime the real players figure out a way around that, it's "just a little bit more" all over again.

The problem with his and your sentiment is both Carebears and the self-elected "Fully Awesome Gamer's" both utilize as much of that little bit more safety as they can get.

I mean that's why you're all so strongly against anything changing from the status quo, where you:

1. Sit in your little blob entirely safe protected by Concorde from anyone other than people with kill rights or war decs (concorde protection)
2. Sit entirely safe protected by Concorde protected from any sort of harsh loss more than a dessie. (reverse isk tanking)
3. Use a freighter that can instant warp (aligned, webbed) and dock in an invulnerable station when you use freighters.
4. Use tags to get your faction back up nice and quick so you can enjoy the safety benefits of high sec which you all pretend to hate so much.


1. what the heck does that have to do with anything?

2. see above.

3. that is called not being an idiot.

4. never used tags, never will. Too cheap for that. Cost effectiveness has always been my mantra, in game and out.

So, what was your point, anyway?

I would say that there are players who make the game safer for themselves through their actions in the game (which is called good gameplay), and then there are players who can't hack it, or won't try, who demand out of game that the devs make the game safer for them(this is what scrubs resort to).

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2013-09-17 06:08:58 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
entirely safe protected by Concorde
entirely safe protected by Concorde

Consolidated Cooperation and Relations Command
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#52 - 2013-09-17 06:18:11 UTC
troll
I even suspect a ccp employee behind this to prepare us for the coming patches.
...hey there is an idea...patch the game everyday and there will not be kills in high sec any more...and nowhere else cause nobody will be able to play.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2013-09-17 06:28:00 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
entirely safe protected by Concorde
entirely safe protected by Concorde

Consolidated Cooperation and Relations Command

Autocorrect sue me

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Khen'do Khen
#54 - 2013-09-17 06:30:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Khen'do Khen
Maliandra wrote:
d) Players who have high security status (i.e. standing with CONCORD) are less likely to be ganked as CONCORD reacts more severely to action taken against them. Opposite can be said for those with negative sec status.

That sounds like profiling to me. Police should protect everyone regardless of security status.

Maliandra wrote:
Hi-sec is illogical. You can pay off the police to commit crimes.

And this would actually be cool. Say there was a NPC you could grind status with. With this status you could pay off this NPC to make CONCORD look the other way.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2013-09-17 06:30:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
They nerf and they nerf and its still never enough.


I remember reading James 315's manifesto on the subject a while back. I wasn't fully converted until I started becoming more active on the forums.

But he's completely right. Couched in all of the pseudo religious trolling and stuff, he's spot on about how carebears operate. It's always "just a little bit more", and everytime the real players figure out a way around that, it's "just a little bit more" all over again.

The problem with his and your sentiment is both Carebears and the self-elected "Fully Awesome Gamer's" both utilize as much of that little bit more safety as they can get.

I mean that's why you're all so strongly against anything changing from the status quo, where you:

1. Sit in your little blob entirely safe protected by Concorde from anyone other than people with kill rights or war decs (concorde protection)
2. Sit entirely safe protected by Concorde protected from any sort of harsh loss more than a dessie. (reverse isk tanking)
3. Use a freighter that can instant warp (aligned, webbed) and dock in an invulnerable station when you use freighters.
4. Use tags to get your faction back up nice and quick so you can enjoy the safety benefits of high sec which you all pretend to hate so much.


1. what the heck does that have to do with anything?

2. see above.

3. that is called not being an idiot.

4. never used tags, never will. Too cheap for that. Cost effectiveness has always been my mantra, in game and out.

So, what was your point, anyway?

I would say that there are players who make the game safer for themselves through their actions in the game (which is called good gameplay), and then there are players who can't hack it, or won't try, who demand out of game that the devs make the game safer for them(this is what scrubs resort to).


No there are gamers who choose a play style and then bleet and whine and moan whenever anyone wants to make it more difficult because its too easy for one style... That's YOU and THEM.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#56 - 2013-09-17 06:31:41 UTC
So what is stopping the highsec bears from doing all of the things you just listed?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#57 - 2013-09-17 06:39:35 UTC
Quote:
No there are gamers who choose a play style and then bleet and whine and moan whenever anyone wants to make it more difficult because its too easy for one style... That's YOU and THEM.


Nope. Learn your EVE history. Ganking has been nerfed more than anything but the Drake. And that's saying something right there.

What I want, is to play the game. What "THEM" wants, is for me not to be able to play the game because they don't like it. I have never suggested "remove mining/mining ships from the game". But you better believe that you see people asking for things, week in and week out, that would remove ganking.

"Freighters shouldn't be able to be bumped"

"Catalysts hit too hard, they shouldn't be able to kill barges" (hilarious since it's about the ship class deliberately designed to punch above it's weight class)

"Margin scams shouldn't be allowed"

"change nullsec so no more goons"

"wardecs are griefing, get rid of them!"

The difference between me and them, is that I want to play the game. They want to legislate things they don't like out of existence. They are too stupid or too lazy to figure out a way around something, so then they just want it gone.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Othran
Route One
#58 - 2013-09-17 06:50:21 UTC
The answer for the OP (and others in the thread) is simple.

Go play on sisi. You'll be happy there as non-consensual PvP is only permitted in 6-CZ at the beacons. Anyone agresses you elsewhere then you can get them banned from sisi.

There you go, you can go live in happy-clappy land there Straight
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2013-09-17 07:01:35 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
No there are gamers who choose a play style and then bleet and whine and moan whenever anyone wants to make it more difficult because its too easy for one style... That's YOU and THEM.


Nope. Learn your EVE history. Ganking has been nerfed more than anything but the Drake. And that's saying something right there.

What I want, is to play the game. What "THEM" wants, is for me not to be able to play the game because they don't like it. I have never suggested "remove mining/mining ships from the game". But you better believe that you see people asking for things, week in and week out, that would remove ganking.

"Freighters shouldn't be able to be bumped"

"Catalysts hit too hard, they shouldn't be able to kill barges" (hilarious since it's about the ship class deliberately designed to punch above it's weight class)

"Margin scams shouldn't be allowed"

"change nullsec so no more goons"

"wardecs are griefing, get rid of them!"

The difference between me and them, is that I want to play the game. They want to legislate things they don't like out of existence. They are too stupid or too lazy to figure out a way around something, so then they just want it gone.

Except MMOs need to be balanced and complaints about mechanics are beneficial to a large extent for developers to get feedback from.

Remember when I was challenged by some alliance twit to declare war on alliances if I didnt like their NBSI policy? Probably not. So I created Privateers. Within a few months there was mass raging and whining along the lines of "Please CCP we should be able to go to highsec whah whaaaa".

CCP nerfed it.

It cuts both ways, all players will whine and scream if they can't be safe unless they Choose when, where, and how they engage in PvP. Well except people like me because Im always prepared for it.

In fact the majority of game changes imo have been made because alliances whined and whined and whined.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#60 - 2013-09-17 07:03:52 UTC
1. Why is any of that needed?
2. I didn't really see anything in those suggestions to make it more realistic (eg. limiting the number of CONCORD, making CONCORD evadable, delaying CONCORD response by the 10–15 minutes it takes to fly from Yulai, enabling the ability to avoid sec status loss through the use of disguises, etc).