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Balancing hi-sec piracy and making it more realistic.

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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#21 - 2013-09-17 00:28:25 UTC
Crimson Gauntlet wrote:


How much harder does it need to be? Even relocating, you can get podded for free. Most of us don't wear implants because we lose pods often, and most trade hubs are pretty much verboten.

If we undock to gank, win, lose or draw, we lose our ship.

Learning to mitigate the drawbacks, and doing so, is smart gameplay. So why should it be punished? Because some people are butthurt that they weren't at the keyboard, and therefore tacitly chose not to defend themselves?

Here, I will spell it out for you. Ganking of any kind has been nerfed more than anything in EVE except the Drake. At this point, if you die to a suicide ganker, it is 100% your fault. Why does that need to be nerfed? If anything, game balance demands that it be buffed.


And I said it should become harder? No, I didn't. Though I feel certain cases are too predictable (i.e. Freighters with lack of fittings you can do maths on without a ship scanner, just a cargo scanner) but that's different from easy/hard.
Also, LMAO, no dying to a suicide ganker is not 100% the gankee's fault. It's quite easy to gank someone who is at the keyboard.

If you want me to take you seriously, make some real arguments, not rubbish ones that sound more carebearish than any miner ever does.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#22 - 2013-09-17 00:29:16 UTC
Crimson Gauntlet wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
All I said was that trying to claim those 'downsides' as consequences is a joke because of how it gets played

How much harder does it need to be? Even relocating, you can get podded for free. Most of us don't wear implants because we lose pods often, and most trade hubs are pretty much verboten.

If we undock to gank, win, lose or draw, we lose our ship.

Learning to mitigate the drawbacks, and doing so, is smart gameplay. So why should it be punished? Because some people are butthurt that they weren't at the keyboard, and therefore tacitly chose not to defend themselves?

Here, I will spell it out for you. Ganking of any kind has been nerfed more than anything in EVE except the Drake. At this point, if you die to a suicide ganker, it is 100% your fault. Why does that need to be nerfed? If anything, game balance demands that it be buffed.
You're bad people and must be punished

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Lady Areola Fappington
#23 - 2013-09-17 00:31:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Areola Fappington
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
So, being unable to fly low agility ships, unable to engage in PVE activities, shootable anywhere we go, and other such issues are not severe enough? (this of course, assuming you go outlaw, if yer smart enough to manage your sec status, more power to you)


Here's my counter proposal, for PVE types...the more red crosses you kill, the bigger ships they fling at you. Unlimited scale up, eventually, you will lose your ship to a superpower 'rat. It just makes sense.....

If of course, 99% of gankers weren't alts who don't need to PvE, fly low agility ships, attend markets or do anything but gank, this could be a real issue.
However, since 99% of Gankers are alts made purely to gank..... it's meaningless consequences for the most part.

Gankers being separate from low sec pirates here obviously.



This statement can be turned against anyone who chooses to specialize in one profession, to the detriment of others.

Gankers make characters that are really good at ganking. The only thing a gank char can do is gank. It's basically worthless for anything else. The balance is in play.

Now, if your complaint is actually against alts, well, that's a different thread. I don't think you'd get as much traction on a "No more alts one person one account one character" crusade, though.


Also, someone ATK, flying a tanky ship, and aware of the surroundings runs like..maybe a 1% chance at being the target of a successful gank.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#24 - 2013-09-17 00:32:50 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
So, being unable to fly low agility ships, unable to engage in PVE activities, shootable anywhere we go, and other such issues are not severe enough? (this of course, assuming you go outlaw, if yer smart enough to manage your sec status, more power to you)


Here's my counter proposal, for PVE types...the more red crosses you kill, the bigger ships they fling at you. Unlimited scale up, eventually, you will lose your ship to a superpower 'rat. It just makes sense.....

If of course, 99% of gankers weren't alts who don't need to PvE, fly low agility ships, attend markets or do anything but gank, this could be a real issue.
However, since 99% of Gankers are alts made purely to gank..... it's meaningless consequences for the most part.

Gankers being separate from low sec pirates here obviously.

This statement can be turned against anyone who chooses to specialize in one profession, to the detriment of others.

Gankers make characters that are really good at ganking. The only thing a gank char can do is gank. It's basically worthless for anything else. The balance is in play.

Now, if your complaint is actually against alts, well, that's a different thread. I don't think you'd get as much traction on a "No more alts one person one account one character" crusade, though.

I'm sure they have no issue with mining alts, mission alts, hauling alts etc

Just the alts which people use to make them explode

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2013-09-17 00:38:07 UTC
They nerf and they nerf and its still never enough.

Here is my nerf idea: set everybody's safety to green and then turn off the button. That and doing away with cloaks is the only way CCP will make the carebears happy and create Happy Rainbow Unicorn Funtime Land in Space. Then have fun with the PvE in Eve, literally the worst PvE of any mmo currently available.

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#26 - 2013-09-17 00:51:49 UTC
Quote:
They nerf and they nerf and its still never enough.


I remember reading James 315's manifesto on the subject a while back. I wasn't fully converted until I started becoming more active on the forums.

But he's completely right. Couched in all of the pseudo religious trolling and stuff, he's spot on about how carebears operate. It's always "just a little bit more", and everytime the real players figure out a way around that, it's "just a little bit more" all over again.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#27 - 2013-09-17 00:53:17 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
They nerf and they nerf and its still never enough.

I remember reading James 315's manifesto on the subject a while back. I wasn't fully converted until I started becoming more active on the forums.

But he's completely right. Couched in all of the pseudo religious trolling and stuff, he's spot on about how carebears operate. It's always "just a little bit more", and everytime the real players figure out a way around that, it's "just a little bit more" all over again.

You thought it was all insane trolling on a massive scale?

EVE is real.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#28 - 2013-09-17 01:01:22 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
They nerf and they nerf and its still never enough.

I remember reading James 315's manifesto on the subject a while back. I wasn't fully converted until I started becoming more active on the forums.

But he's completely right. Couched in all of the pseudo religious trolling and stuff, he's spot on about how carebears operate. It's always "just a little bit more", and everytime the real players figure out a way around that, it's "just a little bit more" all over again.

You thought it was all insane trolling on a massive scale?

EVE is real.


I thought killing afk players had merit regardless of the argument you used to justify it. Play the game, or die in a fire.

AFK is an acronym for "A Free Kill" anyway.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Bohawke
#29 - 2013-09-17 01:50:20 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
The only balance piracy requires at this point is a loud YARRRRRR! sound clip be played whenever an act of piracy is happening.



That, and add eye patches, hook hands, peglegs, and pirate hats...oooh! and shoulder parrots! add all that to the NEX!



Pirates! Yarrrr!



I've never felt a need to post in the forums b/c there's never been anything to motivate me to do so, until now...

CCP - Give me a parrot to sit on my shoulder and I'll wear "Paco" proudly like a pair of $1,000.00 jeans studded with virtual monacles. You know what, give me the monacle-studded jeans too and let me wear them on my head (HEADPANTS!) and then you can do whatever the frack you want to EVE - get rid of high-sec, concord, everything - I'll be cool with all of it as long as I have Paco & my headpants...


-Bo

I'm just here for the laughs...
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#30 - 2013-09-17 02:18:35 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
They nerf and they nerf and its still never enough.

I remember reading James 315's manifesto on the subject a while back. I wasn't fully converted until I started becoming more active on the forums.

But he's completely right. Couched in all of the pseudo religious trolling and stuff, he's spot on about how carebears operate. It's always "just a little bit more", and everytime the real players figure out a way around that, it's "just a little bit more" all over again.

You thought it was all insane trolling on a massive scale?

EVE is real.


I thought killing afk players had merit regardless of the argument you used to justify it. Play the game, or die in a fire.

AFK is an acronym for "A Free Kill" anyway.

Who is the free kill when it's an afk cloaker

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#31 - 2013-09-17 02:20:59 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:

Who is the free kill when it's an afk cloaker


Barring the whole "afk players can't kill people" thing (unless some serious drones are involved), the answer is simple.

In this case, AFK stands for "always finds kills". Eventually, anyway.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#32 - 2013-09-17 02:57:57 UTC
I too think hi sec piracy should be "realistic" ie it should only take one combat ship to kill any size industrial ship. Just like in real life.
Toshiroma McDiesel
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2013-09-17 03:05:57 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
The only balance piracy requires at this point is a loud YARRRRRR! sound clip be played whenever an act of piracy is happening.



That, and add eye patches, hook hands, peglegs, and pirate hats...oooh! and shoulder parrots! add all that to the NEX!



Pirates! Yarrrr!



And Scurvy, there needs to be more scurvy!

I"m not really the Evil One, I'm just his answering service.
Lady Areola Fappington
#34 - 2013-09-17 03:19:43 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
I too think hi sec piracy should be "realistic" ie it should only take one combat ship to kill any size industrial ship. Just like in real life.



To go with that, the space police should only be interested in patrolling well known spacelanes between stations and gates. You go adventure off the beaten path, don't expect rescue in anything approaching a short time!

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Dr0000 Maulerant
Union Nanide and Tooling
#35 - 2013-09-17 03:57:10 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
I too think hi sec piracy should be "realistic" ie it should only take one combat ship to kill any size industrial ship. Just like in real life.


You know, I never understood the pirates cry of "industials should be weak" because even IRL it just isn't true.

The most heavily armored and advanced land fighting vehicles are based on commercial/industrial platforms. A chinamax cargo ship can take a MUCH bigger beating than a US navy destroyer before sinking.

Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
To go with that, the space police should only be interested in patrolling well known spacelanes between stations and gates. You go adventure off the beaten path, don't expect rescue in anything approaching a short time!


Don't forget, when they do show up give them a 50/50 chance of shooting the victim or a bystander.

Tell me again about how every playstyle you dont engage in "doesn't require any effort" and everyone who does it needs to die in a fire. Be sure to mention about how you tried it once but it was too easy/boring/ethnic-homophobic slur. 
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#36 - 2013-09-17 04:08:15 UTC
Quote:
You know, I never understood the pirates cry of "industials should be weak" because even IRL it just isn't true.

The most heavily armored and advanced land fighting vehicles are based on commercial/industrial platforms. A chinamax cargo ship can take a MUCH bigger beating than a US navy destroyer before sinking.


It's pretty much true in most circumstances.

A semi-truck cannot take anywhere close to the kind of beating an up-armored HMMV can take. The semi costs more, to boot. Even an armored car, probably the toughest civilian vehicle, cannot take anywhere near as much damage as a MRAP (an explosion proof troop carrier).

It works the same if you compare military to civilian trains, too.

But if you are comparing one of the world's largest cargo freighters to a Navy destroyer, well, a freighter in EVE can take more of a beating than a destroyer can, more than a (battle)cruiser can too. Compare it to something close to it's size class.

Oh, and a Navy destroyer can sink a chinamax without an issue, just saying. Just need to use one of those delightful anti-ship penetrator incendiaries that Raytheon cooked up about a decade ago. (those guys, btw, are some evil mofos)

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Lady Areola Fappington
#37 - 2013-09-17 04:18:04 UTC
Dr0000 Maulerant wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
I too think hi sec piracy should be "realistic" ie it should only take one combat ship to kill any size industrial ship. Just like in real life.


You know, I never understood the pirates cry of "industials should be weak" because even IRL it just isn't true.

The most heavily armored and advanced land fighting vehicles are based on commercial/industrial platforms. A chinamax cargo ship can take a MUCH bigger beating than a US navy destroyer before sinking.



Main reason industrials should be weak, is that commercial type ships just aren't made for the same duty that military ships are.

In your example, sure the chinamax may be big, but the vast majority of that size is dedicated to hauling cargo. The crew will have limited, if any training in dealing with combat action, damage control under fire, and the myriad other things that can go wrong. It likely has very little redundancy in systems, and what little it does have, aren't made to operate in combat conditions.

The little naval destroyer though, it's made for combat. It has a crew specifically trained to operate under fire, multiple combat hardened redundancies for critical systems, and, most importantly, guns. It's not made to move cargo, it's made to fight and win.


7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Don Purple
Snuggle Society
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#38 - 2013-09-17 04:27:24 UTC
You do know ganking in Hi sec with -10 is a pretty easy thing to do right?

I am just here to snuggle and do spy stuff.
Crimson Gauntlet
Six Gun Sound
#39 - 2013-09-17 04:35:07 UTC
Don Purple wrote:
You do know ganking in Hi sec with -10 is a pretty easy thing to do right?


On paper it's actually pretty tricky.

Our victims make it easy for us though. 
Number of times my posts have come in after the dev/mod locked the thread:  1
Dr0000 Maulerant
Union Nanide and Tooling
#40 - 2013-09-17 04:35:25 UTC


The MRAP is an international garbage truck with armor, the HMMV is a resized, detuned semi that they (sometimes) put armor on. From the factory it can take exactly as many bullets as a semi.

I'm saying we shouldn't discount that the same engineering that makes a vehicle capable of surviving a century of service, can make it bulletproof for a few hours. Mining vehicles in particular have heavy steel casting/plate bodywork to survive an errant boulder and to act as ballast, a mining vehicle in space would need this same protection.

No doubt it's a complicated issue, is there such a thing as a "civilian" capsuleer ship? Shouldn't they all be built to withstand the rigors of the universe they live in (which means errant fire) within their classes.

I'm not saying we should buff mining ships, but they shouldn't be "glass shovels" either, because then it isn't even useful as a shovel.

Tell me again about how every playstyle you dont engage in "doesn't require any effort" and everyone who does it needs to die in a fire. Be sure to mention about how you tried it once but it was too easy/boring/ethnic-homophobic slur.