These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Crime & Punishment

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Ganking too easy?
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#221 - 2013-09-16 12:54:21 UTC
Aldus Dumbledore wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
The killrights system works fine. I've made it work for me, and I know other people that have.

I would suggest that if other people, including myself, can make the killrights system work for us, and you cannot, then the problem lies not with the system, but with you. I know you won't listen because you cannot countenance that you are not perfect (ergo it must be the system), but I figured I would put it out there anyway.

But killrights are irrelevant on a neg ten. Because you can kill them, legally, anytime and anywhere you find them. That is a huge freaking penalty to ganking.

So are you disputing the fact that they take steps to mitigate this? Are you disputing their right to do so? Or are just howling at the empty sky?



I'm glad that you found the opportunity to get payback. Tell me, did you get to destroy an equal value asset to the one you lost?


Why do you think you're entitled to inflict equal damage on them? If you made the mistake of flying an expensive ship, and they purposely play conservatively and only have cheap throw-away ships, then whose fault is that?

You get the chance to kill them, if they play smart and mitigate what you can do then... they won. So sorry. Why not war dec them and keep it going long enough to get what you want? Or suicide gank them yourself when they aren't expecting it. Or any other number of things you can do? Why cry and ask that CCP change the mechanics so it's more or less guaranteed and handed to you?

Work for it, scrub
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#222 - 2013-09-16 13:15:15 UTC
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:

And one more thing, just about 1 more nerf to ganking and I predict mass exodus of content creators. You think gankers are bad? Wait until the only thing you have to do in Eve is the PvE.


Dont SAY things like that!

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
Brother Galladrinal
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#223 - 2013-09-16 16:59:08 UTC
Barzai Mekhar wrote:

This makes it difficult to field any active defensive measures against a gank.


It's not difficult at all, you can use orca boosts, swarm of ECM drones, logi support, pvp support. I've encountered all of these as a ganker, some more effective than others.

It does put you off a target if they take decent precautions, as there's always a single hulk or mackinaw a few belts over doing nothing which makes it a lot easier....
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#224 - 2013-09-16 17:50:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
TheGunslinger42 wrote:

...scrub


My god what dragged you away from your AFK cloaky threads, have you got tired of going on about local and wanted some light relief, I thought this was a AFK cloaky thread when I saw you here..., maybe you will turn it into one...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#225 - 2013-09-16 17:55:09 UTC
So, since we have a "Ganking too easy?" thread, is someone going to make a "Mining too easy?" thread to balance it out? Maybe a "Manufacturing too easy?" thread too. In light of that, id like to implement the following changes:

Mining is TOO EASY! I think that miners should have a mini-game (sort of like hacking, but twitch based!) that they must complete for each cycle on EACH module! Also, due to the high-frequency signal disruption from mining lasers, DSCAN doesnt work, and the nav computer requires the mods to power off before any warp course can be plotted! Its genius!


Now, if mining is too easy, then industry is WAY too easy. I want to hire dust mercs (well, not really, but they may as well have SOME use..) to board your stations and wreck your manufacturing lines, securing them for my own personal use so that I dont have to wait 45 GD days for a copy machine! I also want the mercs to be able to enter your captains quarters and paint the walls cherry-pie style with your avatar. Hows that for walking in stations?

Or, maybe we can all stop crying for CCP to change the game to suit one style of play, and just play the damn game.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
Aldus Dumbledore
The Covenant of Blood
#226 - 2013-09-16 22:48:09 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Aldus Dumbledore wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
The killrights system works fine. I've made it work for me, and I know other people that have.

I would suggest that if other people, including myself, can make the killrights system work for us, and you cannot, then the problem lies not with the system, but with you. I know you won't listen because you cannot countenance that you are not perfect (ergo it must be the system), but I figured I would put it out there anyway.

But killrights are irrelevant on a neg ten. Because you can kill them, legally, anytime and anywhere you find them. That is a huge freaking penalty to ganking.

So are you disputing the fact that they take steps to mitigate this? Are you disputing their right to do so? Or are just howling at the empty sky?



I'm glad that you found the opportunity to get payback. Tell me, did you get to destroy an equal value asset to the one you lost?


Why do you think you're entitled to inflict equal damage on them? If you made the mistake of flying an expensive ship, and they purposely play conservatively and only have cheap throw-away ships, then whose fault is that?

You get the chance to kill them, if they play smart and mitigate what you can do then... they won. So sorry. Why not war dec them and keep it going long enough to get what you want? Or suicide gank them yourself when they aren't expecting it. Or any other number of things you can do? Why cry and ask that CCP change the mechanics so it's more or less guaranteed and handed to you?

Work for it, scrub


Wow, you can't even read the OP let alone the whole thread...just...wow.


This has been a most delicious harvest of Trolls.

Thanks for the thread bumps!
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#227 - 2013-09-17 01:04:35 UTC
Quote:
Wow, you can't even read the OP let alone the whole thread...just...wow.


When you're as obviously wrong as this, reading the whole thread is pretty much a waste of time.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Yi-Ming Gren
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#228 - 2013-09-17 01:10:46 UTC
Leto Thule wrote:
So, since we have a "Ganking too easy?" thread, is someone going to make a "Mining too easy?" thread to balance it out? Maybe a "Manufacturing too easy?" thread too. In light of that, id like to implement the following changes:

Mining is TOO EASY! I think that miners should have a mini-game (sort of like hacking, but twitch based!) that they must complete for each cycle on EACH module! Also, due to the high-frequency signal disruption from mining lasers, DSCAN doesnt work, and the nav computer requires the mods to power off before any warp course can be plotted! Its genius!


Now, if mining is too easy, then industry is WAY too easy. I want to hire dust mercs (well, not really, but they may as well have SOME use..) to board your stations and wreck your manufacturing lines, securing them for my own personal use so that I dont have to wait 45 GD days for a copy machine! I also want the mercs to be able to enter your captains quarters and paint the walls cherry-pie style with your avatar. Hows that for walking in stations?

Or, maybe we can all stop crying for CCP to change the game to suit one style of play, and just play the damn game.



I support this one, Mining is too easy, all ice, rocks should be moved into low or null. For those budding industrialist, only civilian bpo's and bpc's can be researched, or built in high-sec. There you go OP, problem solved all the way around.
Moonlit Raid
Doomheim
#229 - 2013-09-20 20:32:11 UTC
Anne McDonald wrote:
Aldus Dumbledore wrote:
Your thoughts capsuleers:

Ganking too easy? A few million isk each ships take down PvE rigged ships for hundreds of millions in profit?

I got no problem with that, makes you keep your eyes open.

The question is the kill rights afterwards. I think you should be given more than a chance to simply shoot a Catalyst or two. Why should the gankers be able to so simply profit?

How about rights to destroy ships until 50% of the value lost until payback is achieved?

Yes,I think the ganked should take care of their own business. But shooting one or two catalysts isn't even worth the ammo let alone the time.

/discuss


ps in before tears yadda yadda, I just wanna get my own legitimate satisfaction.


I am struggling to find the point of your post, in one hand you are asking if ganking is too easy and on the other you are talking about the way killrights work and getting payback. I will try and answer the post as best I can though.

Ganking too easy? Destroyers (mainly the catalyst and thrasher) can be equipped to weild devastating power 600-800 dps fully gank fit with decent skills and cost around 3mill fully fit so multiple destroyers soon dish out the dps. Ganking could be easy yes but a lot of the larger isk ganks (50ish bill) take planning and good execution as these guys are usually cautious. even if they nerfed the destroyers so it needed 100 catalysts alot of your deadspace fit mission runners drop around 500+ mill still meaning profit in the gank so the problem is irrelevant.

Kill rights... They kill you, and you get to kill them if you choose to shoot at their gank catalyst that is up to you nothing is wrong with the kill right system as it is.

Lots of love,

Your friendly neighborhood ganker.
I see his point, because a gank toon won't fly anything other than a dessy. Where's the retribution there?

If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.

Please Note: Any advice given comes with the caveat that nothing will be suitable for every situation.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#230 - 2013-09-20 20:55:27 UTC
Quote:
I see his point, because a gank toon won't fly anything other than a dessy. Where's the retribution there?


Where's the retribution when you get undercut on the market?

I want market killrights on people who beat me at that too. It isn't fair that they put in the work to get their skills setup for exactly that purpose, and it doesn't matter that they took the time to setup a situation in their favor, no, I feel entitled to get to inflict some loss on someone who totally outplayed me.

Why? Because highsec.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#231 - 2013-09-21 15:03:44 UTC
Leto Thule wrote:
So, since we have a "Ganking too easy?" thread, is someone going to make a "Mining too easy?" thread to balance it out? Maybe a "Manufacturing too easy?" thread too. In light of that, id like to implement the following changes:

Mining is TOO EASY! I think that miners should have a mini-game (sort of like hacking, but twitch based!) that they must complete for each cycle on EACH module! Also, due to the high-frequency signal disruption from mining lasers, DSCAN doesnt work, and the nav computer requires the mods to power off before any warp course can be plotted! Its genius!


Now, if mining is too easy, then industry is WAY too easy. I want to hire dust mercs (well, not really, but they may as well have SOME use..) to board your stations and wreck your manufacturing lines, securing them for my own personal use so that I dont have to wait 45 GD days for a copy machine! I also want the mercs to be able to enter your captains quarters and paint the walls cherry-pie style with your avatar. Hows that for walking in stations?

Or, maybe we can all stop crying for CCP to change the game to suit one style of play, and just play the damn game.


I wish I had 10 more thumbs.

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."
Zero Sum Gain
FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOOOOOOOOM
#232 - 2013-09-21 16:46:50 UTC
It took a while to sort out but I believe what the OP is trying to say is this:

"ganking is low risk high reward"

Right OP?
Zero Sum Gain
FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOOOOOOOOM
#233 - 2013-09-21 16:48:51 UTC
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:
So, since we have a "Ganking too easy?" thread, is someone going to make a "Mining too easy?" thread to balance it out? Maybe a "Manufacturing too easy?" thread too. In light of that, id like to implement the following changes:

Mining is TOO EASY! I think that miners should have a mini-game (sort of like hacking, but twitch based!) that they must complete for each cycle on EACH module! Also, due to the high-frequency signal disruption from mining lasers, DSCAN doesnt work, and the nav computer requires the mods to power off before any warp course can be plotted! Its genius!


Now, if mining is too easy, then industry is WAY too easy. I want to hire dust mercs (well, not really, but they may as well have SOME use..) to board your stations and wreck your manufacturing lines, securing them for my own personal use so that I dont have to wait 45 GD days for a copy machine! I also want the mercs to be able to enter your captains quarters and paint the walls cherry-pie style with your avatar. Hows that for walking in stations?

Or, maybe we can all stop crying for CCP to change the game to suit one style of play, and just play the damn game.


I wish I had 10 more thumbs.


12 thumbs total?
Aldus Dumbledore
The Covenant of Blood
#234 - 2013-09-21 19:32:08 UTC
Zero Sum Gain wrote:
It took a while to sort out but I believe what the OP is trying to say is this:

"ganking is low risk high reward"

Right OP?



Quoted for Truth.

The only thing the current system does is prevent bored players with good rep from going on a ganking spree one afternoon as they would then have to worry about flying good ships for the next month.

Instead, dedicated ganking toons can manage their sec status and be immune to any effective retribution by only flying gank ships.

Another example:

Kill Rights are made Public for 5 million isk. The ganked thinks "haha, maybe someone will gank him in a nice ship by buying the public rights..."

What the ganker does is have one of his bros buy the rights, then, he steps out of the station in a worthless clone and has his bro pop him. Kill Rights used up for *pfft* 5mill isk.

Then the ganker can freely get into his Pirate Faction Battleship with this (not even pesky) problem solved by the ganker himself with no inconvenience or real consequence. If you make them public for a real amount then no one will buy them as it's simply not worth it for the chance at loots.

Kill Rights are broken and only serve the gankers, not the ganked.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#235 - 2013-09-21 20:49:59 UTC
Quote:
Kill Rights are made Public for 5 million isk. The ganked thinks "haha, maybe someone will gank him in a nice ship by buying the public rights..."

What the ganker does is have one of his bros buy the rights, then, he steps out of the station in a worthless clone and has his bro pop him. Kill Rights used up for *pfft* 5mill isk.


This is called being smarter than you. They should be rewarded for outsmarting you. In this instance "the ganked" as you put it, is simply being an ignoramus for doing so. Game mechanics should never reward people for their lack of knowledge and good gameplay.

Quote:
Then the ganker can freely get into his Pirate Faction Battleship with this (not even pesky) problem solved by the ganker himself with no inconvenience or real consequence. If you make them public for a real amount then no one will buy them as it's simply not worth it for the chance at loots.


This is the part where people really realize that you're probably lying. No neg ten in the entire galaxy flies a Faction Battleship in highsec. And in any other part of space, you could kill them without killrights even being an issue.

If they gank, then they have low enough sec status that you could attack them anyway. Their workaround to avoiding negative sec status "free for all"? Tags. But tags don't get rid of killrights. Maybe they should, because either way you can still be attacked even after "paying back your debt". (see how ******** that logic can be?)

It works fine. I seriously don't see what problem you are having with them that isn't already solved by various pre existing mechanics.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Aldus Dumbledore
The Covenant of Blood
#236 - 2013-09-21 22:53:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Aldus Dumbledore
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
Kill Rights are made Public for 5 million isk. The ganked thinks "haha, maybe someone will gank him in a nice ship by buying the public rights..."

What the ganker does is have one of his bros buy the rights, then, he steps out of the station in a worthless clone and has his bro pop him. Kill Rights used up for *pfft* 5mill isk.


This is called being smarter than you. They should be rewarded for outsmarting you. In this instance "the ganked" as you put it, is simply being an ignoramus for doing so. Game mechanics should never reward people for their lack of knowledge and good gameplay.

Quote:
Then the ganker can freely get into his Pirate Faction Battleship with this (not even pesky) problem solved by the ganker himself with no inconvenience or real consequence. If you make them public for a real amount then no one will buy them as it's simply not worth it for the chance at loots.


This is the part where people really realize that you're probably lying. No neg ten in the entire galaxy flies a Faction Battleship in highsec. And in any other part of space, you could kill them without killrights even being an issue.

If they gank, then they have low enough sec status that you could attack them anyway. Their workaround to avoiding negative sec status "free for all"? Tags. But tags don't get rid of killrights. Maybe they should, because either way you can still be attacked even after "paying back your debt". (see how ******** that logic can be?)

It works fine. I seriously don't see what problem you are having with them that isn't already solved by various pre existing mechanics.


Apparently you are unaware that dedicated ganking corps exist that target people with high value modules on their ships in High Sec.

After a few successful ops they go back to running missions in their own controlled space to repair their rep. They are not -10. And if they have a dedicated ganking alt it doesn't matter anyways. All you do is contract all loot/profits over to your main and no one can touch you. The Alt is parked until needed to undock in a Tornado/Thrasher/Catalyst.

As Spine Ripper posted in this thread, his -10 toon can never be caught or even if it does get caught in a lag spike, the isk loss is so inconsequential as to be meaningless.

It is not "smarter" than me to take advantage of game mechanics that are not working as expected, it is called an Exploit that doesn't interest me. If you can't figure out how to make ganking *work for anyone to profit from* and how the KR mechanism is easily circumvented then you are really kinda slow.
Aldus Dumbledore
The Covenant of Blood
#237 - 2013-09-21 22:55:57 UTC
Leto Thule wrote:
So, since we have a "Ganking too easy?" thread, is someone going to make a "Mining too easy?" thread to balance it out? Maybe a "Manufacturing too easy?" thread too. In light of that, id like to implement the following changes:

Mining is TOO EASY! I think that miners should have a mini-game (sort of like hacking, but twitch based!) that they must complete for each cycle on EACH module! Also, due to the high-frequency signal disruption from mining lasers, DSCAN doesnt work, and the nav computer requires the mods to power off before any warp course can be plotted! Its genius!


Now, if mining is too easy, then industry is WAY too easy. I want to hire dust mercs (well, not really, but they may as well have SOME use..) to board your stations and wreck your manufacturing lines, securing them for my own personal use so that I dont have to wait 45 GD days for a copy machine! I also want the mercs to be able to enter your captains quarters and paint the walls cherry-pie style with your avatar. Hows that for walking in stations?

Or, maybe we can all stop crying for CCP to change the game to suit one style of play, and just play the damn game.



You know what is even easier than Mining?

Ganking miners and then extorting the rest for "donations" and "permits" for profit.

Then you make up a phony story about what you are doing is to improve Eve to make yourself feel better.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#238 - 2013-09-22 00:37:16 UTC
Quote:
Apparently you are unaware that dedicated ganking corps exist that target people with high value modules on their ships in High Sec.


Been in one (granted, that was like 4 years ago), what is your point?

Quote:
After a few successful ops they go back to running missions in their own controlled space to repair their rep. They are not -10.


In which case they are in low, null, or WH space and you can attack them anyway if you have the stones to go there.

Quote:
And if they have a dedicated ganking alt it doesn't matter anyways.


In which case you can already attack them in highsec.

Quote:
All you do is contract all loot/profits over to your main and no one can touch you. The Alt is parked until needed to undock in a Tornado/Thrasher/Catalyst.


Typically yes, but only after finding a victim stupid enough to be profitable to kill. That's 100% the fault of the person fitting bling items and using autopilot.

I ask you again, what problem do you have that isn't already solved by pre-existing mechanics?

If they go to grind rep, well they have to do that in a security status area where you can attack them(and killrights won't matter). If you don't, that's your fault. If they are neg ten in highsec, you can attack them anyway, and if you don't then it's your fault.

What do you want out of this? You want to force them to undock in an expensive ship so you can balm your hurt feelings?

If they make the right choices, and minimize the consequences to themselves... well, then you should have just not gotten caught.

Here, let me explain it to you.

If you die in highsec, in almost every circumstance you can give me, it is 100% your own fault.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Aldus Dumbledore
The Covenant of Blood
#239 - 2013-09-22 02:23:38 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
Apparently you are unaware that dedicated ganking corps exist that target people with high value modules on their ships in High Sec.


Been in one (granted, that was like 4 years ago), what is your point?

Quote:
After a few successful ops they go back to running missions in their own controlled space to repair their rep. They are not -10.


In which case they are in low, null, or WH space and you can attack them anyway if you have the stones to go there.

Quote:
And if they have a dedicated ganking alt it doesn't matter anyways.


In which case you can already attack them in highsec.

Quote:
All you do is contract all loot/profits over to your main and no one can touch you. The Alt is parked until needed to undock in a Tornado/Thrasher/Catalyst.


Typically yes, but only after finding a victim stupid enough to be profitable to kill. That's 100% the fault of the person fitting bling items and using autopilot.

I ask you again, what problem do you have that isn't already solved by pre-existing mechanics?

If they go to grind rep, well they have to do that in a security status area where you can attack them(and killrights won't matter). If you don't, that's your fault. If they are neg ten in highsec, you can attack them anyway, and if you don't then it's your fault.

What do you want out of this? You want to force them to undock in an expensive ship so you can balm your hurt feelings?

If they make the right choices, and minimize the consequences to themselves... well, then you should have just not gotten caught.

Here, let me explain it to you.

If you die in highsec, in almost every circumstance you can give me, it is 100% your own fault.


You're a little slow.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#240 - 2013-09-22 02:40:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Quote:
You're a little slow.


You can abdicate the argument if you would like, that's your decision.

But you still have yet to tell me why there needs to be a mechanic change due to your failure to find a way to inflict a significant loss against an individual prepared to mitigate the losses of their actions.


[edit: Here, I'll add to that. You, just from the fact that you got ganked at all, were not adequately prepared. Why should you be rewarded for poor gameplay?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.