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"More Generalized" T3 Ships
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Sigras
Conglomo
#61 - 2013-06-30 09:36:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Sigras
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Picture this:

you have a loki with all the subsystems and all relevant modules in a station

In that same station, i have a vagabond, a scimitar and a rapier with all the relevant fittings.

Now, which of us is more flexible? It's at least a wash. You choose a role and undock, and I choose a role and undock.

The difference is that my ships were cheaper and dont blow up all together.
You forgot that the Loki can fly as one ship and carry all of its subsystems with it.

I didnt forget, I just didnt mention it because that presents a whole new range of problems:

1. It raises the cost of your ship quite a bit because you would also have to carry the mods for the different fittings you may need; also this turns you into a loot pinata
2. It takes time to dock and refit, and if your fleet needs extra RR, by the time you dock and come back the only thing theyre going to need is a salvager.
3. good luck finding a place to dock and refit deep in enemy territory, or in an enemy WH where you're most likely to be away from a suitable T2 replacement ship which would be a preferable alternative.

I suppose 2 and 3 could be somewhat alleviated by bringing an orca/carrier with you, but now we're back to combat refitting arent we? interesting how we keep coming back to that.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2013-06-30 10:18:31 UTC
Those same problems (except for #1) and more are presented with multiple ships for multiple jobs. It's still a better ship simply being able to carry subsystems with it.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Sigras
Conglomo
#63 - 2013-09-15 19:31:41 UTC
true, but the point is that having a series of T2 ships is at least as good as a T3 if you cant refit in combat, and considering that each T2 ship should be better at its role than the T3 emulation of that T2 ship.
Sigras
Conglomo
#64 - 2013-09-15 19:41:20 UTC
The TL;DR of this thread is that you have 2 options:

1. combat refitting T3s
2. T3s that outclass their T2 counterparts (What we have right now)

Either one of those two things or you'll have T3s that cost more and are less effective than T2 ships.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#65 - 2013-09-15 20:13:52 UTC
Combat refit is one of the dumbest suggestions i've seen in quite a while.
Sigras
Conglomo
#66 - 2013-09-15 20:37:02 UTC
do you have a reason for thinking that or is that just what you think?
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#67 - 2013-09-15 20:53:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Sigras wrote:
T3s that outclass their T2 counterparts (What we have right now)


That's the whole point. They're T3s. How about this:

5. T3s are generally fine, but need a few tweaks to the Proteus and Legion.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Sigras
Conglomo
#68 - 2013-09-15 21:27:14 UTC
T3s are not supposed to be straight better than T2s thats ridiculous . . . if thats the case why even have T2?
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2013-09-15 21:37:48 UTC
Sigras wrote:
T3s are not supposed to be straight better than T2s thats ridiculous . . . if thats the case why even have T2?


They aren't

Recons point/web/ecm/logi better than any T3 can dream of...there is no hictor varient of T3


CCP ****** it up with the HAC rebalance. The issue isn't the T3 its the HACs.

Tengu in recon mode isa joke compared to a Falcon...or Rook really
T3 logi...just lol
Protues can match a lauch or arazu for ping distance, its really not close
Loki doesn't get Huggin's web range has no painter bounus at all
Legion in a cap warfare foll when there is curse? LOL
NO recon mode T3 gets a fuel bonus or the reduction to cyno duration
Logi T3s are a joke outside of a couple niche rolls

...all they have is a tank

Its not the T3's issue that the HACs suck (and continue to)

Loki's isn't faster than either munnin or vaga
Proteusis of dubious value in a HAC roll ...period and proteus vs ishtar? just lol, Ishhtar is far and away just better for the roll
Tengu trumps eagle, its debatable between a missile tengu and a cerb now
Legion trumps Sac and zealot....but the issue there is (again) the sac and zealot.
Zakeus Djinn
Who Called In The Fleet
#70 - 2013-09-15 22:15:42 UTC
I really don't like combat refitting of tech 3 ships. That isn't how they are generalist. A T3 ship should be able to fill multiple roles at the same time to sort of create a role of its own, not just one role at a time. Even if you can refit in combat, you're just moving from one single role to another.

A perfect example is cloaking warfare link ships. There is no T2 ship that fills the role of boosting a fleet while having the covops capability to warp cloaked or use covert jump bridges with the fleet. With subsystems, a T3 takes the specialization of cloaky ships, and combines it with the ability to provide fleet boosts, resulting in an entirely new role of its very own. With some subsystem changes, a tech 3 ship could be set up to have some of the electronic warfare abilities of the recon cruisers, but have much of the resilience of a HAC to keep it on the field. It wouldn't be as good as a recon at EWAR, and not quite as good at tanking as a HAC, nor would it have a HAC's EWAR resistance, but it would take the two and combine them for a unique role on the field.

A properly balanced and organized set of subsystems would make the generalist function of tech 3 ships work perfectly, without even changing the mechanics of T3 ships.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#71 - 2013-09-16 02:45:22 UTC
Sigras wrote:
T3s are not supposed to be straight better than T2s thats ridiculous . . . if thats the case why even have T2?


T1... T2... T3... notice a pattern here? Um, because T2s are cheaper than T3s?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#72 - 2013-09-16 17:05:57 UTC
FFS, it is already expensive enough without having to fly around with a cargohold full of subsystems. Great idea!! Great!!

/end sarcasm


No to changing subsystems in space. Reasons have already been given...
Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#73 - 2013-09-16 17:07:55 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Sigras wrote:
T3s that outclass their T2 counterparts (What we have right now)


That's the whole point. They're T3s. How about this:

5. T3s are generally fine, but need a few tweaks to the Proteus and Legion.


Then people get on and say we need to tweak Loki and Tengu. All of them need some tweaking, some a bit more than others. I really do wonder though if some of the people even fly T3s (based on their posts).
Sigras
Conglomo
#74 - 2013-09-16 18:23:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Sigras
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Sigras wrote:
T3s are not supposed to be straight better than T2s thats ridiculous . . . if thats the case why even have T2?


T1... T2... T3... notice a pattern here? Um, because T2s are cheaper than T3s?

you mean other than the fact that you're completely ignoring CCP's stated design goals? and that youre ignoring all of the principles of good game design . . . seems legit

Oh and price is not enough of a balancing factor; we saw that with supercarriers and titans . . . the cost difference between a HAC and a T3 is like the cost difference between a can of pepsi and a 2 liter of pepsi . . . sure if I dont need the extra soda ill go with the can, but price isnt my determining factor.

Lastly, T3s that are "combat fit" are in most cases comparable to the command ships of that race and in some cases better . . . this means they're outclassing command ships (being smaller faster and just as good if not better) and completely obsoleting HACs.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#75 - 2013-09-16 18:50:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Sigras wrote:
you mean other than the fact that you're completely ignoring CCP's stated design goals? and that youre ignoring all of the principles of good game design . . . seems legit

Oh and price is not enough of a balancing factor; we saw that with supercarriers and titans . . . the cost difference between a HAC and a T3 is like the cost difference between a can of pepsi and a 2 liter of pepsi . . . sure if I dont need the extra soda ill go with the can, but price isnt my determining factor.

Lastly, T3s that are "combat fit" are in most cases comparable to the command ships of that race and in some cases better . . . this means they're outclassing command ships (being smaller faster and just as good if not better) and completely obsoleting HACs.


Dead horse - meet stick... The aspects of the T3s have been literally debated to death, but setting aside the cost for a minute - it's the only class where you take a significant skill hit when losing one in combat. So it's not exactly Coke vs. Pepsi here... Since you brought up HACs, from what I understand from players the new HACs easily outgun most T3s. And since you also brought up Command Ships, I'll also point out that the new Command Cruisers pretty much do everything better than a T3 can (more tank, more warfare, more DPS). There was a small nerf to T3s in the last update.

That being said, I don't think anyone would argue with the insane tank possible on the Proteus and Legion. By the same token, some of the Tengu and Loki subsystems are grossly underpowered compared to the others.


Onomerous wrote:
Then people get on and say we need to tweak Loki and Tengu. All of them need some tweaking, some a bit more than others. I really do wonder though if some of the people even fly T3s (based on their posts).


I have to seriously wonder that, too. The Loki and Tengu do need some buffs on some of the offensive systems, and the Legion and Proteus definitely need a change with respect to their tank.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.