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Bumping freighters and criminal flags

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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#61 - 2013-09-15 13:05:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Benny Ohu wrote:
if you didn't know what 'physics engine' meant in computer games you can just say so and move on you know

I know what it means. Its an engine that handles the physics of the game. It could be a simple function or a complex group of functions but it does not handle collision detection. It handles the physics associated with collisions.

Let me ask you again, if you were simulating a ship floating in space, and you had nothing to collide with as you don't in space, would you or would you not need a physics engine to deal with forces being generated by the ships engines. Would it need collision detection function in such an instance?

The answer is no. The absence of a collision detection component does not make that physics engine not a physics engine therefore a physics engine does not have collision detection. If it does its an additional component and not part of the physics engine.

Oh and if it is integrated into the physics engine code then the programmers are stupid. It needs to be modular so it can be easily unplugged and updated.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Lady Areola Fappington
#62 - 2013-09-15 13:10:02 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
if you didn't know what 'physics engine' meant in computer games you can just say so and move on you know

I know what it means. Its an engine that handles the physics of the game. It could be a simple function or a complex group of functions but it does not handle collision detection. It handles the physics associated with collisions.

Let me ask you again, if you were simulating a ship floating in space, and you had nothing to collide with as you don't in space, would you or would you not need a physics engine to deal with forces being generated by the ships engines. Would it need collision detection function in such an instance?

The answer is no. The absence of a collision detection component does not make that physics engine not a physics engine therefore a physics engine does not have collision detection. If it does its an additional component and not part of the physics engine.

Oh and if it is integrated into the physics engine code then the programmers are stupid. It needs to be modular so it can be easily unplugged and updated.



Incorrect, as usual. If *I* were simulating a ship floating in space, I'd render it all with something like Maya, because including a whole physics engine when unneeded is insane.

If there's no interaction with anything in space, and you want interactivity, you could just code in texture translation and movement to simulate motion. No need to include a physics engine, if there's no collision detection needed.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#63 - 2013-09-15 13:12:56 UTC
or try to bludgeon your way through this completely irrelevant point instead of just bowing out w/e it's not me who's the fool
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#64 - 2013-09-15 13:13:20 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
if you didn't know what 'physics engine' meant in computer games you can just say so and move on you know

I know what it means. Its an engine that handles the physics of the game. It could be a simple function or a complex group of functions but it does not handle collision detection. It handles the physics associated with collisions.

Let me ask you again, if you were simulating a ship floating in space, and you had nothing to collide with as you don't in space, would you or would you not need a physics engine to deal with forces being generated by the ships engines. Would it need collision detection function in such an instance?

The answer is no. The absence of a collision detection component does not make that physics engine not a physics engine therefore a physics engine does not have collision detection. If it does its an additional component and not part of the physics engine.

Oh and if it is integrated into the physics engine code then the programmers are stupid. It needs to be modular so it can be easily unplugged and updated.



Incorrect, as usual. If *I* were simulating a ship floating in space, I'd render it all with something like Maya, because including a whole physics engine when unneeded is insane.

If there's no interaction with anything in space, and you want interactivity, you could just code in texture translation and movement to simulate motion. No need to include a physics engine, if there's no collision detection needed.

lmao. Really so an engine producing thrust (motion) with fuel (energy) and moving a ship (mass) does not require physics. We should tell NASA they could save a bunch by firing all their physicists :)

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2013-09-15 13:16:32 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
or try to bludgeon your way through this completely irrelevant point instead of just bowing out w/e it's not me who's the fool

If its so irrelevant then why are you all trying so desperately to prove me wrong :)

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Lady Areola Fappington
#66 - 2013-09-15 13:19:23 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

lmao. Really so an engine producing thrust (motion) with fuel (energy) and moving a ship (mass) does not require physics. We should tell NASA they could save a bunch by firing all their physicists :)



THat's really...out there. OK.

We're discussing video games here. Yes, if there's no need for collision, we can simulate all movement needed by translating and transforming textures, to simulate movement. The simple example, Mickey mouse doesn't actually move when he walks down the hallway, he stays in place while the background scrolls behind him.

This is basic programming and game design 101 stuff, and waaaaaay off topic to the discussion.

Just to TL;DR the thread before it locks. Infinity Ziona really doesn't like mean EVE people, bumping is working as intended, and a nurse knows more about programming than a 10 year professor.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#67 - 2013-09-15 13:20:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I know what it means. Its an engine that handles the physics of the game.
…including collisions. In EVE's case, that's DESTINY — the simulation that takes care of predicting and calculating all physical interactions between ships and their surroundings.

Quote:
Let me ask you again, if you were simulating a ship floating in space, and you had nothing to collide with as you don't in space, would you or would you not need a physics engine to deal with forces being generated by the ships engines. Would it need collision detection function in such an instance?
You would need a physics engine if you intend to apply forces to it and you need collisions detection (usually as part of that physics engine) to detect of any collisions are occurring so you can apply even more forces.

Quote:
The absence of a collision detection component does not make that physics engine not a physics engine therefore a physics engine does not have collision detection.
Non sequitur. You're confusing sufficient and necessary. Just because you can have a physics engine without collision detection does not mean that physics engines do not deal with collision detection.

Quote:
Really so an engine producing thrust (motion) with fuel (energy) and moving a ship (mass) does not require physics.
…except of course that he said nothing of the sort. And no, simulating movement does not require physics — only basic geometrical texture translations.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#68 - 2013-09-15 13:28:47 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I know what it means. Its an engine that handles the physics of the game.
…including collisions.

Quote:
Let me ask you again, if you were simulating a ship floating in space, and you had nothing to collide with as you don't in space, would you or would you not need a physics engine to deal with forces being generated by the ships engines. Would it need collision detection function in such an instance?
You would need a physics engine if you intend to apply forces to it and you need collisions detection (usually as part of that physics engine) to detect of any collisions are occurring so you can apply even more forces.

Quote:
The absence of a collision detection component does not make that physics engine not a physics engine therefore a physics engine does not have collision detection.
Non sequitur. You're confusing sufficient and necessary. Just because you can have a physics engine without collision detection does not mean that physics engines do not deal with collision detection.

Quote:
Really so an engine producing thrust (motion) with fuel (energy) and moving a ship (mass) does not require physics.
…except of course that he said nothing of the sort.

No not including collisions. In the context that this started, we were talking purely about coding, I was asked to write a bit of code. We were not talking about entire systems. This was just something they jumped on to obfuscate the whole issue. At the function level which is where we were, there would be ZERO collision detection inside the physics function, it would be separated by functions. The collision detection would call the physics functions passing the memory address of the items the physics functions would need to operate on.

Even on a macro level, the physics engine would exist apart from the collision detection system. The reason this would be so is that making changes to the collision detection system would have minimal chances for any bugs to transfer over to the physics parts. Its basic programming.

You would not need collision detection AT ALL if you there was no reason to have collision detection so a physics engine does not have collision detection. It does physics. You can make up all the reasons it must have collision detection but you will still be entirely wrong.

He said exactly that. No collisions no need for a physics engine.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2013-09-15 13:33:07 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

lmao. Really so an engine producing thrust (motion) with fuel (energy) and moving a ship (mass) does not require physics. We should tell NASA they could save a bunch by firing all their physicists :)



THat's really...out there. OK.

We're discussing video games here. Yes, if there's no need for collision, we can simulate all movement needed by translating and transforming textures, to simulate movement. The simple example, Mickey mouse doesn't actually move when he walks down the hallway, he stays in place while the background scrolls behind him.

This is basic programming and game design 101 stuff, and waaaaaay off topic to the discussion.

Just to TL;DR the thread before it locks. Infinity Ziona really doesn't like mean EVE people, bumping is working as intended, and a nurse knows more about programming than a 10 year professor.

A ship in space when producing thrust is using energy to move mass since producing any thrust in zero g will produce movement. That's physics. The game would still need a physics engine to determine how much thrust, its vector, how that thrust and vector act on the mass to cause that mass to move. There doesn't need to be any collisions for that mass to move. Just mass, thrust. That requires a physics engine.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Lady Areola Fappington
#70 - 2013-09-15 13:40:18 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

A ship in space when producing thrust is using energy to move mass since producing any thrust in zero g will produce movement. That's physics. The game would still need a physics engine to determine how much thrust, its vector, how that thrust and vector act on the mass to cause that mass to move. There doesn't need to be any collisions for that mass to move. Just mass, thrust. That requires a physics engine.

As I said, no, it doesn't. Game design 101. If there's no interaction with game elements, I'm not going to include a whole physics engine w/ collision detection. I'm just going to simulate all movement using texture transforms.

No need for a physics engine then, just the math required to do the geometry transforms My "ship" object stays static. All the textures around it transform to simulate thrust, vector, how thrust/vector act together, all that fun stuff you explained.


In your example, you'll include an entire Havok engine to make a spaceship fly towards a planet in 3-d.

In my example, I transform the planet texture from 100% size to 200% size, in order to simulate ship thrust.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#71 - 2013-09-15 13:44:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Infinity Ziona wrote:
No not including collisions.
…except that DESTINY (same as many other physics engines) does exactly that, so yes, including collisions.

Quote:
At the function level which is where we were, there would be ZERO collision detection inside the physics function, it would be separated by functions.
…and the point you are missing is that the detection of collisions is handled by the physics engine, so the code you're creating to detect bumping (i.e. collisions) would feed right off of that engine. Since you're trying to infer some kind of intent, you need more data than just a+b — data that is handled deep within that engine.

Quote:
Even on a macro level, the physics engine would exist apart from the collision detection system.
“Would”? Perhaps. “Actually does”, no. They're part of the same simulation.

Quote:
You would not need collision detection AT ALL if you there was no reason to have collision detection so a physics engine does not have collision detection. It does physics.
…including collisions, which have to be detected (or, more accurately, predicted in the case of EVE).

Quote:
He said exactly that. No collisions no need for a physics engine.
No. He said that the primary job of the EVE physics engine is to detect collisions. And it kind of is, for an expanded definition of “collision” — its primary job is to detect, filter, and sort intersections between probable interactions of all kinds.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#72 - 2013-09-15 13:47:20 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

A ship in space when producing thrust is using energy to move mass since producing any thrust in zero g will produce movement. That's physics. The game would still need a physics engine to determine how much thrust, its vector, how that thrust and vector act on the mass to cause that mass to move. There doesn't need to be any collisions for that mass to move. Just mass, thrust. That requires a physics engine.

As I said, no, it doesn't. Game design 101. If there's no interaction with game elements, I'm not going to include a whole physics engine w/ collision detection. I'm just going to simulate all movement using texture transforms.

No need for a physics engine then, just the math required to do the geometry transforms My "ship" object stays static. All the textures around it transform to simulate thrust, vector, how thrust/vector act together, all that fun stuff you explained.


In your example, you'll include an entire Havok engine to make a spaceship fly towards a planet in 3-d.

In my example, I transform the planet texture from 100% size to 200% size, in order to simulate ship thrust.

No but what if you want to have realistic physics. You can't just make them up you need a physics engine to calculate how much of that thrust is converted into motion based on the amount of thrust, the mass you are moving, the location of the thrusters. If one of your thrusters was damaged or you reduce the thrust on deliberately, then you need to calculate how that affects the mass, if one thruster is producing thrust at a different level then another you need to calculate how that will affect the mass, will it spin the mass, will it slow down the mass down, if so how much, etc etc.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#73 - 2013-09-15 13:50:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Infinity Ziona wrote:
No but what if you want to have realistic physics.
Luckily, this is EVE, so you don't. Blink
And the point remains: no, you don't need a physics engine to simulate movement. Just because you can do it the excessively hard and convoluted way doesn't mean you have to. In fact, in many cases it means you really shouldn't.
Lady Areola Fappington
#74 - 2013-09-15 13:55:36 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

No but what if you want to have realistic physics. You can't just make them up you need a physics engine to calculate how much of that thrust is converted into motion based on the amount of thrust, the mass you are moving, the location of the thrusters. If one of your thrusters was damaged or you reduce the thrust on deliberately, then you need to calculate how that affects the mass, if one thruster is producing thrust at a different level then another you need to calculate how that will affect the mass, will it spin the mass, will it slow down the mass down, if so how much, etc etc.



Which can all be done with texture transforms. No need for any physics modeling at all.

In fact, the vast majority of "motion" you see in games is texture transforms. Physics calculations eat up a ton of resources.


To drag this kicking and screaming back into EVE, ever wonder why missiles are the black sheep of EVE weapons systems? Missiles are physics items. Remember how for the longest time we didn't have launchers for missiles? That's cause CCP couldn't at the time, figure out a way to spawn the missile spheres from specific points on a model. To the physics engine in EVE, ships are just spheres with a vector, so all missiles spawned from the center of the sphere.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#75 - 2013-09-15 13:57:01 UTC
Why criminal flags? Just give freighter pilots a big red button which, after three bumps, disables the collision bubble of the freighter until next warp.

(Doh, i *so much* must re-post this at the bad ideas thread...)

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2013-09-15 13:59:26 UTC
Tippia wrote:
except that DESTINY (same as many other physics engines) does exactly that, so yes, including collisions.

…and the point you are missing is that the detection of collisions is handled by the physics engine, so the code you're creating to detect bumping (i.e. collisions) would feed right off of that engine. Since you're trying to infer some kind of intent, you need more data than just a+b — data that is handled deep within that engine.

“Would”? Perhaps. “Actually does”, no. They're part of the same simulation.

…including collisions, which have to be detected (or, more accurately, predicted in the case of EVE).

No. He said that the primary job of the EVE physics engine is to detect collisions. And it kind of is, for an expanded definition of “collision” — its primary job is to detect, filter, and sort intersections between probable interactions of all kinds.

I dont' care what DESTINY as a whole system does. Someone said they would have to change the whole physics engine. I said they wouldn't they would only need to change collision detection (the function or functions that handle collision detection). I am right in this case.

No the code that handles collision detection would logically call the physics engine to handle the changed state when a collision occurs. The physics engine wouldn't' call the collision detection system otherwise it would be the collision detection system. You're talking macro I'm talking function level, which is what we were talking when this conversation derailed. It works the opposite way or should.

So you're saying the collision detection system in destiny is hard coded right into the functions that handle the physics in EvE and don't exist as separate functions? That's insane.

And no he didn't say EvE at all.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2013-09-15 14:02:07 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
No but what if you want to have realistic physics.
Luckily, this is EVE, so you don't. Blink
And the point remains: no, you don't need a physics engine to simulate movement. Just because you can do it the excessively hard and convoluted way doesn't mean you have to. In fact, in many cases it means you really shouldn't.

Tippia, even EvE has a particular physics model. It may not simulate real physics but it is a physics that translates to all ships, involving mass and thrust and other variables. So yes even EvE has a physics engine to simulate movement, if it didn't and just made it up then all our ships even when they're exactly the same, would behave completely differently to each other. They do not.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#78 - 2013-09-15 14:18:44 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I dont' care what DESTINY as a whole system does. Someone said they would have to change the whole physics engine. I said they wouldn't they would only need to change collision detection (the function or functions that handle collision detection).
…which means doing incursions into the DESTINY code, which they're loath to do because it's such a brittle yet critical system.

Quote:
No the code that handles collision detection would logically call the physics engine to handle the changed state when a collision occurs. The physics engine wouldn't' call the collision detection system otherwise it would be the collision detection system.
…or, alternatively, the simulation would monitor the state of the world and ask if any collisions or other physical effects are in effect. If they are, calculate the next frame based on them, otherwise it'll be the same as the current frame.

You seem to be very caught up on the notion that it is a physics engine and nothing more, when what physics engines do these days is a whole lot more than just that. A lot of it is simply sorting through interactions and deciding what (if any) simulations should be run, to ensure that you don't do more than you have to.

One of the things it could decide to do is to just run the texture transformations because that's all that's needed right now to simulate motion.

Quote:
So you're saying the collision detection system in destiny is hard coded right into the functions that handle the physics in EvE and don't exist as separate functions? That's insane.
No, I'm saying that one of the functions in the overall Destiny engine — EVE's physics engine — is the collision detection.

Quote:
You're talking macro I'm talking function level
…and I'm pointing out that those functions are part of the physics engine.

Quote:
And no he didn't say EvE at all.
Context is a just a strangely put-together string of random letters to you, isn't it?
BadAssMcKill
Aliastra
#79 - 2013-09-15 14:22:02 UTC
This thread is gr8
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#80 - 2013-09-15 14:26:18 UTC
Tippia wrote:

Quote:
So you're saying the collision detection system in destiny is hard coded right into the functions that handle the physics in EvE and don't exist as separate functions? That's insane.
No, I'm saying that one of the functions in the overall Destiny engine — EVE's physics engine — is the collision detection.

Quote:
And no he didn't say EvE at all.

Context is a just a strangely put-together string of random letters to you, isn't it?

Well that was exactly what I was saying. You wouldn't have to change "the whole physics engine" you would only have to modify that function.

And no, we were talking in the context that he was designing his OWN game. So context is very important. Correctly taken, and used, it wouldn't have derailed this thread.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)