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Freedom for Freighters
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Dave Stark
#21 - 2013-09-13 15:39:13 UTC
you don't need fittings, the racial variation in freighters pretty much already provides what you want.

one is middle of the road, one has high cargo, one has high ehp, and one is faster.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#22 - 2013-09-13 15:55:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
Lucas Kell wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
I'm glad you found this thread.

I'll give you that the "can't fire until fired upon" does negate the example somewhat but you'd need an Alpha of >150,000HP (roughly estimated from EVElopedia on a Fenrir of base structure and armour combined) now I don't know the size of gang required of the top of my head but that's a lot of ships piling in that DPS. Remote Reps & Escorts would be able to repair and engage after the first volley has been fired along with Concord (if traveling in Hi-Sec) and Gate Guns.

You'd think they should be able to do something... But when you think in a 0.5, theres a 25 second delay on concord. 40 T1 catalysts (not even T2) roll out 360DPS. So in a 0.5, they can deliver 360,000 damage and put the freighter in hull on the first volley. Even if you killed 1 per second, they would still deliver 252,000 damage in the 25 seconds. That's T1. That's 80m of ships. T2, you double the DPS and can halve the ships (though a T2 is 5* the price of a T1) but still that's 20x10 = 200m for the same damage (though contested a T2 would only end on 151200 damage, so you'd want to take 25 T2s as you lose a bigger % dps for each ship dropped).

There's no way you'd rep a freighter through a gank with that much DPS. Pretty much the only way to keep a freighter alive is by carrying a light load which gankers may ignore hoping for a bigger drop. Kinda defeats the purpose of a freighter.


So were talking 40 x 360 (DPS) = 14400 in Volley #1. Now your escort opens up along with Gate Guns... if Tech II 20 * 720. If you've got Remote Reps coming in you're looking at something like Basilisk (Assuming L5 Skills): 358.83HP\Sec with a single Basilisk (Not including drones\boosts\fleet bonuses).

Now, my figures were RAW HP from structure and armour that didn't include resists so I'm going to take a guess that you're not going to be hit for all of that 14400DPS that's incoming...

Just trying to understand the mechanics of it a bit better. How many Freighters die per day just out of curiosity? Average number in a gank squad?

Still I'm off the opinion that if you're flying around that higher value of goods then you should protect it because no where is safe in EVE.

EDIT: You'd be into Armour on the 1st Volley I'll give you that much with only 5625K in Shield Cap but then you have 4 x that much in armour with 21,250HP. These are RAW stats for a Fenrir.

14400 in Volley #1 = Shield 0% Armour @ <>14000HP
14400 in Volley #2 = Shield 0%, Armour 0%, Structure 100,000 HP
14400 in Volley #3 = Shield 0%, Armour 0%, Structure <>85,600 HP
14400 in Volley #4 = Shield 0%, Armour 0%, Structure <>71,200 HP
14400 in Volley #5 = Shield 0%, Armour 0%, Structure <>56,800 HP
14400 in Volley #6 = Shield 0%, Armour 0%, Structure <>42,400 HP
14400 in Volley #7 = Shield 0%, Armour 0%, Structure <>28,000 HP
14400 in Volley #8 = Shield 0%, Armour 0%, Structure <>13,600 HP

Have to go, further edit to follow.

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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#23 - 2013-09-13 17:50:56 UTC

Do not give freighters highslots. People will put cloaks on them to more safely move them about nullsec and lowsec. No!
Do not give freighters midslots with enough PG to fit 100MN MWDs. People will put MWD's on and pulse them to get into warp quickly.

Balance the HP vs Cargo vs Agility. The DCU gives a major increase in tank for a small amount of fitting requirements. Compare the benefits of a nano or a cargo expander, and the DCU singlehandedly warps the isk/m3 gank ratio. Freighters would probably need their armor and structure attributes reversed, as to not make the DCU so potent on these ships.

At the end of the day, you should get only one of the following:
Lots of HP
Lots of Cargo Capacity
Good agility/speed.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#24 - 2013-09-13 18:07:38 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
I'm glad you found this thread.

I'll give you that the "can't fire until fired upon" does negate the example somewhat but you'd need an Alpha of >150,000HP (roughly estimated from EVElopedia on a Fenrir of base structure and armour combined) now I don't know the size of gang required of the top of my head but that's a lot of ships piling in that DPS. Remote Reps & Escorts would be able to repair and engage after the first volley has been fired along with Concord (if traveling in Hi-Sec) and Gate Guns.

You'd think they should be able to do something... But when you think in a 0.5, theres a 25 second delay on concord. 40 T1 catalysts (not even T2) roll out 360DPS. So in a 0.5, they can deliver 360,000 damage and put the freighter in hull on the first volley. Even if you killed 1 per second, they would still deliver 252,000 damage in the 25 seconds. That's T1. That's 80m of ships. T2, you double the DPS and can halve the ships (though a T2 is 5* the price of a T1) but still that's 20x10 = 200m for the same damage (though contested a T2 would only end on 151200 damage, so you'd want to take 25 T2s as you lose a bigger % dps for each ship dropped).

There's no way you'd rep a freighter through a gank with that much DPS. Pretty much the only way to keep a freighter alive is by carrying a light load which gankers may ignore hoping for a bigger drop. Kinda defeats the purpose of a freighter.


So were talking 40 x 360 (DPS) = 14400 in Volley #1. Now your escort opens up along with Gate Guns... if Tech II 20 * 720. If you've got Remote Reps coming in you're looking at something like Basilisk (Assuming L5 Skills): 358.83HP\Sec with a single Basilisk (Not including drones\boosts\fleet bonuses).

Now, my figures were RAW HP from structure and armour that didn't include resists so I'm going to take a guess that you're not going to be hit for all of that 14400DPS that's incoming...

Just trying to understand the mechanics of it a bit better. How many Freighters die per day just out of curiosity? Average number in a gank squad?

Still I'm off the opinion that if you're flying around that higher value of goods then you should protect it because no where is safe in EVE.

EDIT: You'd be into Armour on the 1st Volley I'll give you that much with only 5625K in Shield Cap but then you have 4 x that much in armour with 21,250HP. These are RAW stats for a Fenrir.

14400 in Volley #1 = Shield 0% Armour @ <>14000HP
14400 in Volley #2 = Shield 0%, Armour 0%, Structure 100,000 HP
14400 in Volley #3 = Shield 0%, Armour 0%, Structure <>85,600 HP
14400 in Volley #4 = Shield 0%, Armour 0%, Structure <>71,200 HP
14400 in Volley #5 = Shield 0%, Armour 0%, Structure <>56,800 HP
14400 in Volley #6 = Shield 0%, Armour 0%, Structure <>42,400 HP
14400 in Volley #7 = Shield 0%, Armour 0%, Structure <>28,000 HP
14400 in Volley #8 = Shield 0%, Armour 0%, Structure <>13,600 HP

Have to go, further edit to follow.

Well yeah, OK, Armor on volley 1. But even if you take the best resist between thermal and kinetic and generously apply it, there less that 150k ehp on a freighter. So 40 catalysts will overkill it quite easily.
So if 40 catas is 80m, and a ganked ship drops about half it's value, that means a freighter with 200m isk of good can be profitably killed, even with an escort.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Meyr
Pirannha Corp
#25 - 2013-09-13 22:47:24 UTC
Why not reduce the cargo capacity of each Freighter to the point where a single T2 Cargohold Expander will return them to their current capacity, and add one low slot, 35 CPU, and 1 Powergrid. Keep the rest of their stats the same.

Let the pilot choose what he wants - DC II, Nano, I-stab, or Cargo Expanders. At that point, the pilot is accepting responsibility for the result of undocking his ship.

DC II - much harder to gank, but probably carrying more valuable cargo.
Cargo Expander - bulkier, less valuable cargo, but far easier to kill (but still worth far more than the cost of ganking the ship)
Nano - again, easier to gank, but quicker to align and warp, quicker to autopilot to the gate
I-stab - reduced cargo, quicker into warp, not for use when autopiloting.

And, before you gankers start crying about how much more difficult it will be to gank a DC II-fit Obelisk, how about you HTFU, and bring more help? That's what you constantly suggest to freighter pilots - bring scouts, webbers, friends - take your own advice, or STFU.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#26 - 2013-09-13 22:56:18 UTC
Meyr wrote:
Why not reduce the cargo capacity of each Freighter to the point where a single T2 Cargohold Expander will return them to their current capacity, and add one low slot, 35 CPU, and 1 Powergrid. Keep the rest of their stats the same.

Let the pilot choose what he wants - DC II, Nano, I-stab, or Cargo Expanders. At that point, the pilot is accepting responsibility for the result of undocking his ship.

DC II - much harder to gank, but probably carrying more valuable cargo.
Cargo Expander - bulkier, less valuable cargo, but far easier to kill (but still worth far more than the cost of ganking the ship)
Nano - again, easier to gank, but quicker to align and warp, quicker to autopilot to the gate
I-stab - reduced cargo, quicker into warp, not for use when autopiloting.

And, before you gankers start crying about how much more difficult it will be to gank a DC II-fit Obelisk, how about you HTFU, and bring more help? That's what you constantly suggest to freighter pilots - bring scouts, webbers, friends - take your own advice, or STFU.

I would say, move freighter EHP to armor, give 2 low slots. Disallow cargo expanders (or make a freighters bay not affected by it like special bays on industrials). This way you can at least chose to omnitank/monotank/dualtank. Making freighters a bit more random.
AS they currently sit, you can figure the EHP of a freighter down to practically the exact EHP due to them being so static.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#27 - 2013-09-13 22:57:37 UTC
Meyr wrote:
Why not reduce the cargo capacity of each Freighter to the point where a single T2 Cargohold Expander will return them to their current capacity, and add one low slot, 35 CPU, and 1 Powergrid. Keep the rest of their stats the same.

Let the pilot choose what he wants - DC II, Nano, I-stab, or Cargo Expanders. At that point, the pilot is accepting responsibility for the result of undocking his ship.

DC II - much harder to gank, but probably carrying more valuable cargo.
Cargo Expander - bulkier, less valuable cargo, but far easier to kill (but still worth far more than the cost of ganking the ship)
Nano - again, easier to gank, but quicker to align and warp, quicker to autopilot to the gate
I-stab - reduced cargo, quicker into warp, not for use when autopiloting.

And, before you gankers start crying about how much more difficult it will be to gank a DC II-fit Obelisk, how about you HTFU, and bring more help? That's what you constantly suggest to freighter pilots - bring scouts, webbers, friends - take your own advice, or STFU.

Also reduce HP of freighter, not just cargo.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#28 - 2013-09-13 22:59:50 UTC
Not sure about offensive-defensive capabilities (high slots, drones), but there should be some form of racial coloration/customization possible...

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Meyr
Pirannha Corp
#29 - 2013-09-14 01:28:55 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
Meyr wrote:
Why not reduce the cargo capacity of each Freighter to the point where a single T2 Cargohold Expander will return them to their current capacity, and add one low slot, 35 CPU, and 1 Powergrid. Keep the rest of their stats the same.

Let the pilot choose what he wants - DC II, Nano, I-stab, or Cargo Expanders. At that point, the pilot is accepting responsibility for the result of undocking his ship.

DC II - much harder to gank, but probably carrying more valuable cargo.
Cargo Expander - bulkier, less valuable cargo, but far easier to kill (but still worth far more than the cost of ganking the ship)
Nano - again, easier to gank, but quicker to align and warp, quicker to autopilot to the gate
I-stab - reduced cargo, quicker into warp, not for use when autopiloting.

And, before you gankers start crying about how much more difficult it will be to gank a DC II-fit Obelisk, how about you HTFU, and bring more help? That's what you constantly suggest to freighter pilots - bring scouts, webbers, friends - take your own advice, or STFU.

Also reduce HP of freighter, not just cargo.


Why? Are you afraid that it'll actually take WORK to kill one? Tough. As I said above - HTFU, or STFU.

If I, as a freighter pilot, make the decision to sacrifice my cargo capacity in return for a tougher vessel, that's my choice. You, as a ganker, must then make the decision as to whether or not you are going to make the attempt to kill my ship in return for the probability of a loot drop (average of 1/3, according to many posters here, personally, I think that's a bit low, it's more likely about 40%). Is my increased defense worth your time and effort? Is the loss of my cargo capacity a fair exchange for me having to take the time to make multiple runs in order to move the same m3 of cargo?

The decision as to whether or not I arrive at my destination intact should be a mutual interaction of my forethought versus your greed.

Not merely if you're feeling particularly lazy or energetic.

Try thinking and working for your ISK, instead of counting on handouts from CCP. The rest of us have to - why should you be any different?
Balthazar Lestrane
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#30 - 2013-09-14 01:38:03 UTC
Freighters have one role, moving stuff. They don't need slots. Learn to fly them safely or deal with the possibility of being ganked.
Meyr
Pirannha Corp
#31 - 2013-09-14 01:59:44 UTC
Wah, Wah, Wah!!!

Wow, just the thought of having to work a bit harder really brings out your tears, doesn't it? Stupid carebears actually having some say in whether or not it's easy for you to kill them just completely screws over your fun, doesn't it?

Irony, anyone?

The concept of a freighter pilot deciding to sacrifice cargo space in return for increased survivability (much like a PVP vessel - Glass Cannon or Tanky?), and forcing you to work a bit harder in return for padding that killboard and scooping loot has you lot bawling like a baby whose pacifier just got taken away.

Yeah, I said it - gankers are the biggest whiners in the game. You're convinced that your version of fun should take precedence over anyone else's, and anything that makes that more difficult is bad.

Every other player in Eve accepts that they will get their ass handed to them, they'll lose in return for no gain, that they'll have to decide not to fight, that the cost isn't worth it, that they were out-thought, out-planned, or out-maneuvered.

Wipe your noses, stop crying, and learn to accept that your opponent will win a few.
Dave Stark
#32 - 2013-09-14 07:26:06 UTC
Meyr wrote:
The concept of a freighter pilot deciding to sacrifice cargo space in return for increased survivability (much like a PVP vessel - Glass Cannon or Tanky?), and forcing you to work a bit harder in return for padding that killboard and scooping loot has you lot bawling like a baby whose pacifier just got taken away.


except the suggestion already exists. it's called flying an obelisk instead of a fenrir.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2013-09-14 08:50:00 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Freighters are meant to travel with an escort if they wish to avoid ganking and camps etc. An RL example is the Atlantic Convoys in WWII.

Freighters carry shedloads of stuff and a few modules are not going to help much...Freighters + Escort\Protection is how they're supposed to be flown not like any other ship in EVE and I appreciate the SP required but to give them that much m3 AND modules would just be OP.

Jump Freighters are landing on a Cyno so the same protection should be afforded to them as a Freighter and not a "throw-away" alt lighting up for it to jump to. Value the ship\cargo within = fly it with protection.

I guess you can gather that it's a no from me and no, I'm not a ganker or a Freighter Pilot but if you want modules AND Cargo capacity look at an Orca.

EDIT: Not the first time it's been suggested either so please use the search button to see if you idea is truly unique in that: Never before been suggested or has not been suggested in an active thread.

Lmao. Yeah as an avid WWII reader I recall the many times I read of convoys leaving to cross the Atlantic . The sloops frigates and destroyers spot a German wolf pack and the convoy commander signalling "oh look at that a wolf pack, do not attack until they fire their torpedoes!!"

Unless you just started EvE or you're insane you know all too well that there is no possible mechanic in game, nor any profitable way to safely escort a freighter. Why? Because unlike WWII if you presumptively defend you're own Navy blows you the hell up.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-09-14 09:10:38 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
I'm glad you found this thread.

I'll give you that the "can't fire until fired upon" does negate the example somewhat but you'd need an Alpha of >150,000HP (roughly estimated from EVElopedia on a Fenrir of base structure and armour combined) now I don't know the size of gang required of the top of my head but that's a lot of ships piling in that DPS. Remote Reps & Escorts would be able to repair and engage after the first volley has been fired along with Concord (if traveling in Hi-Sec) and Gate Guns.

You'd think they should be able to do something... But when you think in a 0.5, theres a 25 second delay on concord. 40 T1 catalysts (not even T2) roll out 360DPS. So in a 0.5, they can deliver 360,000 damage and put the freighter in hull on the first volley. Even if you killed 1 per second, they would still deliver 252,000 damage in the 25 seconds. That's T1. That's 80m of ships. T2, you double the DPS and can halve the ships (though a T2 is 5* the price of a T1) but still that's 20x10 = 200m for the same damage (though contested a T2 would only end on 151200 damage, so you'd want to take 25 T2s as you lose a bigger % dps for each ship dropped).

There's no way you'd rep a freighter through a gank with that much DPS. Pretty much the only way to keep a freighter alive is by carrying a light load which gankers may ignore hoping for a bigger drop. Kinda defeats the purpose of a freighter.


So were talking 40 x 360 (DPS) = 14400 in Volley #1. Now your escort opens up along with Gate Guns... if Tech II 20 * 720. If you've got Remote Reps coming in you're looking at something like Basilisk (Assuming L5 Skills): 358.83HP\Sec with a single Basilisk (Not including drones\boosts\fleet bonuses).

Now, my figures were RAW HP from structure and armour that didn't include resists so I'm going to take a guess that you're not going to be hit for all of that 14400DPS that's incoming...

Just trying to understand the mechanics of it a bit better. How many Freighters die per day just out of curiosity? Average number in a gank squad?

Still I'm off the opinion that if you're flying around that higher value of goods then you should protect it because no where is safe in EVE.

EDIT: You'd be into Armour on the 1st Volley I'll give you that much with only 5625K in Shield Cap but then you have 4 x that much in armour with 21,250HP. These are RAW stats for a Fenrir.

14400 in Volley #1 = Shield 0% Armour @ <>14000HP
14400 in Volley #2 = Shield 0%, Armour 0%, Structure 100,000 HP
14400 in Volley #3 = Shield 0%, Armour 0%, Structure <>85,600 HP
14400 in Volley #4 = Shield 0%, Armour 0%, Structure <>71,200 HP
14400 in Volley #5 = Shield 0%, Armour 0%, Structure <>56,800 HP
14400 in Volley #6 = Shield 0%, Armour 0%, Structure <>42,400 HP
14400 in Volley #7 = Shield 0%, Armour 0%, Structure <>28,000 HP
14400 in Volley #8 = Shield 0%, Armour 0%, Structure <>13,600 HP

Have to go, further edit to follow.


Arguing about DPS and then counting volleys makes me wonder if you know that dps is damage per second, and not damage per volley?

8 Seconds to gank a freighter, uhlalala.

I think freighters should have fitting options. Mostly because power creep in the game favored the ganker, and the victim got nothing at all. Time to warp freighters into 2013, don't leave them back in 2005 (or whenever they got introduced..).
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#35 - 2013-09-14 09:50:30 UTC
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
So were talking 40 x 360 (DPS) = 14400 in Volley #1. Now your escort opens up along with Gate Guns... if Tech II 20 * 720. If you've got Remote Reps coming in you're looking at something like Basilisk (Assuming L5 Skills): 358.83HP\Sec with a single Basilisk (Not including drones\boosts\fleet bonuses).

Now, my figures were RAW HP from structure and armour that didn't include resists so I'm going to take a guess that you're not going to be hit for all of that 14400DPS that's incoming...

Just trying to understand the mechanics of it a bit better. How many Freighters die per day just out of curiosity? Average number in a gank squad?

Still I'm off the opinion that if you're flying around that higher value of goods then you should protect it because no where is safe in EVE.

EDIT: You'd be into Armour on the 1st Volley I'll give you that much with only 5625K in Shield Cap but then you have 4 x that much in armour with 21,250HP. These are RAW stats for a Fenrir.

14400 in Volley #1 = Shield 0% Armour @ <>14000HP
14400 in Volley #2 = Shield 0%, Armour 0%, Structure 100,000 HP
14400 in Volley #3 = Shield 0%, Armour 0%, Structure <>85,600 HP
14400 in Volley #4 = Shield 0%, Armour 0%, Structure <>71,200 HP
14400 in Volley #5 = Shield 0%, Armour 0%, Structure <>56,800 HP
14400 in Volley #6 = Shield 0%, Armour 0%, Structure <>42,400 HP
14400 in Volley #7 = Shield 0%, Armour 0%, Structure <>28,000 HP
14400 in Volley #8 = Shield 0%, Armour 0%, Structure <>13,600 HP

Have to go, further edit to follow.


Arguing about DPS and then counting volleys makes me wonder if you know that dps is damage per second, and not damage per volley?

8 Seconds to gank a freighter, uhlalala.

I think freighters should have fitting options. Mostly because power creep in the game favored the ganker, and the victim got nothing at all. Time to warp freighters into 2013, don't leave them back in 2005 (or whenever they got introduced..).

We weren't arguing, we were discussing. And where did he say 8 seconds? He said 8 volleys.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#36 - 2013-09-14 10:44:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Arya Regnar
Meyr wrote:

Why? Are you afraid that it'll actually take WORK to kill one? Tough. As I said above - HTFU, or STFU.

If I, as a freighter pilot, make the decision to sacrifice my cargo capacity in return for a tougher vessel, that's my choice. You, as a ganker, must then make the decision as to whether or not you are going to make the attempt to kill my ship in return for the probability of a loot drop (average of 1/3, according to many posters here, personally, I think that's a bit low, it's more likely about 40%). Is my increased defense worth your time and effort? Is the loss of my cargo capacity a fair exchange for me having to take the time to make multiple runs in order to move the same m3 of cargo?

The decision as to whether or not I arrive at my destination intact should be a mutual interaction of my forethought versus your greed.

Not merely if you're feeling particularly lazy or energetic.

Try thinking and working for your ISK, instead of counting on handouts from CCP. The rest of us have to - why should you be any different?

Yeah yeah HTFU, you are asking for a 110% ehp buff at the cost of only 30% cargo or so, that's still way over JF capacity and the ehp goes to 400k.

You say 40 cats can do it for 80 mil? And 240 must be in freighter to make it worth it?

How about we go do the math on the economics of time.
Lets assume for a start that it is 40 people were talking about, they are going to spend their time being ready for a gank, the FC will have to gather them up and organize the event in advance, after they spot the freighter it will be bumped off the gate and the catalysts will blow it up and lose their sec status as well as get killrights on them, then you have to risk another freighter to loot the dead wreck unless the cargo hold is small, where you can lose both the loot and the freighter depending on who is sticking around to screw with you, after that you have to get loot to a hub and sell it.

If you are still going to claim its 2 mil per catalyst then you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
Harden the **** up bear, this game favors you and it shouldn't get any easier for anyone.

No you can't have your super tanky ship which still hauls more than half it previously could.
Use escorts, web freighter chose different routes, look at ships killed in last hour statistics and don't be a dumbass.

The catalysts make it cheaper on paper but you need a lot more manpower, organizing and the loot goes 40 ways.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#37 - 2013-09-14 21:54:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Maldiro Selkurk
They should be just balanced around having slots just like every other ship, want max capacity give up survivability and vice versa and same for all other traits like agility, speed, etc.

God, I'm good at this stuff !!!

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2013-09-15 03:12:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Arya Regnar wrote:
Meyr wrote:

Why? Are you afraid that it'll actually take WORK to kill one? Tough. As I said above - HTFU, or STFU.

If I, as a freighter pilot, make the decision to sacrifice my cargo capacity in return for a tougher vessel, that's my choice. You, as a ganker, must then make the decision as to whether or not you are going to make the attempt to kill my ship in return for the probability of a loot drop (average of 1/3, according to many posters here, personally, I think that's a bit low, it's more likely about 40%). Is my increased defense worth your time and effort? Is the loss of my cargo capacity a fair exchange for me having to take the time to make multiple runs in order to move the same m3 of cargo?

The decision as to whether or not I arrive at my destination intact should be a mutual interaction of my forethought versus your greed.

Not merely if you're feeling particularly lazy or energetic.

Try thinking and working for your ISK, instead of counting on handouts from CCP. The rest of us have to - why should you be any different?

Yeah yeah HTFU, you are asking for a 110% ehp buff at the cost of only 30% cargo or so, that's still way over JF capacity and the ehp goes to 400k.

You say 40 cats can do it for 80 mil? And 240 must be in freighter to make it worth it?

How about we go do the math on the economics of time.
Lets assume for a start that it is 40 people were talking about, they are going to spend their time being ready for a gank, the FC will have to gather them up and organize the event in advance, after they spot the freighter it will be bumped off the gate and the catalysts will blow it up and lose their sec status as well as get killrights on them, then you have to risk another freighter to loot the dead wreck unless the cargo hold is small, where you can lose both the loot and the freighter depending on who is sticking around to screw with you, after that you have to get loot to a hub and sell it.

If you are still going to claim its 2 mil per catalyst then you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
Harden the **** up bear, this game favors you and it shouldn't get any easier for anyone.

No you can't have your super tanky ship which still hauls more than half it previously could.
Use escorts, web freighter chose different routes, look at ships killed in last hour statistics and don't be a dumbass.

The catalysts make it cheaper on paper but you need a lot more manpower, organizing and the loot goes 40 ways.

This is mostly crap. You can do it with 30 catalysts with T1 mods. Each Cat costs 2 million. That's 60 million isk. The sec status loss is miniscule. I suicided a Rifter yesterday in Jita with a Rokh, pod as well. I was 5.0 and I'm +1. The freighter is not at any risk scooping. If you do it correctly the freighter will be in warp to a safespot before it shows on anyones overview that it is suspect. At the safespot, the freighter can align and be in warp long before it can be probed down if you have someone there to web it, or even if you don't.

As for kill rights, they are easily removed by an alt if the victim is foolish enough to share them or you risk him coming back and killing your 2 million isk ship if he decides to try to use them himself. Hardly revenge.

Oh yeah and if you don't understand that it IS 2 million isk for a T1 Cat then you can clearly find out that it is by going to Bat Countries killboard and checking their ganks. Yes they use T2 Cats as well but then they don't need as many, they also use T1 Cats which cost 2 mill each.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2013-09-15 11:42:58 UTC
Tobias Hareka wrote:

Do you know what you're asking?

For example:
Freighter with two low slots

- Your tank should be nerfed to point when only bulkheads and damage control will increase your tank to current level

That's not the only nerf!
- Your cargohold size should be nerfed to point when only two expanded cargohold modules will increase your cargohold size to current level

We are not done with nerfs yet!
- You also get even worse agility (like it's not bad enough already!) for your freighter so that only two inertia stabilizers will increase your ship's agility to current level.

If freighters need something they need buffs. Not awful nerfs!

More likely two lows would mean use one on something (tank, hold, etc.) and you get what you already have, use two and it's better. Of course this is still a nerf, because that means you get to choose two features out of at least four (hold size, tank, agility, speed) to have at their current levels, and the others are all worse. What's more, some modules buff their area more than others do theirs (nanos vs DCU II, for example), and others buff something at the expense of something else (expanders on a hull-tanked ship means you fit to hold more valuable stuff at the same time you make yourself easier to gank, for example).

All in all, it strikes me as a considerable can of worms, and that's just the lows.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#40 - 2013-09-15 12:06:48 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Arya Regnar wrote:

How about we go do the math on the economics of time.
Lets assume for a start that it is 40 people were talking about...

This is mostly crap. You can do it with 30 catalysts with T1 mods. Each Cat costs 2 million. That's 60 million isk. The sec status loss is miniscule. I suicided a Rifter yesterday in Jita with a Rokh, pod as well. I was 5.0 and I'm +1. The freighter is not at any risk scooping. If you do it correctly the freighter will be in warp to a safespot before it shows on anyones overview that it is suspect. At the safespot, the freighter can align and be in warp long before it can be probed down if you have someone there to web it, or even if you don't.

As for kill rights, they are easily removed by an alt if the victim is foolish enough to share them or you risk him coming back and killing your 2 million isk ship if he decides to try to use them himself. Hardly revenge.

Oh yeah and if you don't understand that it IS 2 million isk for a T1 Cat then you can clearly find out that it is by going to Bat Countries killboard and checking their ganks. Yes they use T2 Cats as well but then they don't need as many, they also use T1 Cats which cost 2 mill each.


And everyones time just falls out of the sky and getting this many people together comes at no price.
This is why you can't have an intelligent discussion with you people, you just straight out ignore some parts of the system and claim that your math is right and we are better off for being able to do it this cheap.

Might I ask how you suicided a rifter in jita? As well as his pod? Using rokh? Unless you used smarties you shouldn't have time to kill him and his pod. It smells like an awful lot of BS, your killboard shows no such things and to begin with you are a null bear.

Why do you continue to make claims to know how highsec suicide ganking works when you clearly have not done it even once.

You probably tried a gank once and failed and now you assume that the miniscule 0.15 sec hit for an attempt is all the sec loss you get for a gank.

Please...

Since we are discussing it your way... You can gank everything in eve absolutely for free, you get 1 million noobships and you suicide gank a freighter using noobships which are free, since everyone has a ship that is free the entire gank is free as well.

That IS what you are basically claiming.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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